texascavers Digest 23 Oct 2013 16:06:44 -0000 Issue 1870
Topics (messages 22943 through 22951):
Poison Ivey and Climate Change
22943 by: Josh Rubinstein
Re: Poison-ivy and Karst
22944 by: Gill Edigar
22945 by: Phil Winkler
22949 by: Bob West
Re: Poison-ivy
22946 by: Gill Edigar
22947 by: Tom Rogers
22948 by: Tom Rogers
22951 by: Mary Thiesse
Anacardiaceae
22950 by: BMorgan994.aol.com
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--- Begin Message ---
The higher CO2 is not only promoting an abundance of Poison Ivey but making
it more potent. See
http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/features/climate-change-brings-super-poison-ivy
After
a lifetime in the woods, it is only in the last decade that I have been
effected by the toxin.
Josh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I forgot to mention an apocryphal story regarding my East Texas cousins who
were Piney Woods squirrel hunters in their youth and often came home with
poison ivy lesions. My aunt used an old procedure that involved my cousins
taking a certain number (which I don't remember) of ripe poison ivy seeds
by mouth for several (again, I don't remember how many) days. They were,
reportedly, cured of their sensitivity to poison ivy--or, at least, it was
greatly diminished.
--Ediger
On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:15 PM, <dirt...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Poison-ivy and Karst
>
> How cave related can you get?? (I'll do everything I can to get this site
> back on track)
>
> I grew up in New York and was terribly allergic to poison ivy as a
> youngster. Like, someone burned some brush with the vines in the pile, a
> half-mile away. Good Lord, was I ever in an awful itchy situation after
> the smoke passed over me ------. Fortunately my lungs did not react.
>
> When I started to do karst and geological things in upstate NY, I
> discovered two things:
>
> 1. To see the bedrock I had to crawl on my belly like a snake up stream
> beds.
>
> 2. I could map the limestone without ever seeing it, just by mapping where
> the lush poison ivy grew. (THAT is the Karst tie-in)
>
> After I came West, I could more easily see Rocks and I gradually lost my
> extreme reaction. But I learned what George cautioned: Immunity is lost
> by repeated exposure.
>
> Then I moved to Texas and discovered Poison Oak. It makes TREES going up
> the cliffs with trunks as big around as Bob Oakley's thighs around springs
> in the Big Bend. ESPECIALLY in what is now Big Bend Ranch State Park.
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pretty sure poison oak can be found in the eastern US, too.
http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/poison-ivy-oak-and-sumac-leaves
and sumac, too.
At 10/23/2013 08:42 AM -0500, Gill Edigar wrote:
I forgot to mention an apocryphal story regarding my East Texas
cousins who were Piney Woods squirrel hunters in their youth and
often came home with poison ivy lesions. My aunt used an old
procedure that involved my cousins taking a certain number (which I
don't remember) of ripe poison ivy seeds by mouth for several
(again, I don't remember how many) days. They were, reportedly,
cured of their sensitivity to poison ivy--or, at least, it was
greatly diminished.
--Ediger
On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:15 PM,
<<mailto:dirt...@comcast.net>dirt...@comcast.net> wrote:
Poison-ivy and Karst
How cave related can you get?? (I'll do everything I can to get
this site back on track)
I grew up in New York and was terribly allergic to poison ivy as a
youngster. Like, someone burned some brush with the vines in the
pile, a half-mile away. Good Lord, was I ever in an awful itchy
situation after the smoke passed over me ------. Fortunately my
lungs did not react.
When I started to do karst and geological things in upstate NY, I
discovered two things:
1. To see the bedrock I had to crawl on my belly like a snake up stream beds.
2. I could map the limestone without ever seeing it, just by mapping
where the lush poison ivy grew. (THAT is the Karst tie-in)
After I came West, I could more easily see Rocks and I gradually
lost my extreme reaction. But I learned what George
cautioned: Immunity is lost by repeated exposure.
Then I moved to Texas and discovered Poison Oak. It makes TREES
going up the cliffs with trunks as big around as Bob Oakley's thighs
around springs in the Big Bend. ESPECIALLY in what is now Big Bend
Ranch State Park.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - <http://www.avg.com>www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3222/6274 - Release Date: 10/23/13
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember being very sensitive to poison ivy in my early teens growing up in
northern Brown county. All it had to be was springtime and I would get itchy
welts on my ankles and wrists. My parents found some poison ivy extract that
came in a dropper bottle. I would take 1 drop a day for a week or 10 days;
then 2 drops a day for that long and do that all the way to 10 drops a day. I
would start the drop therapy in the winter so by springtime I was up the the 10
drop max and my sensitivity was then greatly diminished.
My mother would get poison ivy reaction regularly and not even be around it.
She stopped getting it when she stopped handling my fathers dirty jeans putting
them in the washing machine.
Bob West
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:42:57 -0500
From: gi...@att.net
To: dirt...@comcast.net
CC: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy and Karst
I forgot to mention an apocryphal story regarding my East Texas cousins who
were Piney Woods squirrel hunters in their youth and often came home with
poison ivy lesions. My aunt used an old procedure that involved my cousins
taking a certain number (which I don't remember) of ripe poison ivy seeds by
mouth for several (again, I don't remember how many) days. They were,
reportedly, cured of their sensitivity to poison ivy--or, at least, it was
greatly diminished.
--Ediger
On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:15 PM, <dirt...@comcast.net> wrote:
Poison-ivy and Karst
How cave related can you get?? (I'll do everything I can to get this site back
on track)
I grew up in New York and was terribly allergic to poison ivy as a youngster.
Like, someone burned some brush with the vines in the pile, a half-mile away.
Good Lord, was I ever in an awful itchy situation after the smoke passed over
me ------. Fortunately my lungs did not react.
When I started to do karst and geological things in upstate NY, I discovered
two things:
1. To see the bedrock I had to crawl on my belly like a snake up stream beds.
2. I could map the limestone without ever seeing it, just by mapping where the
lush poison ivy grew. (THAT is the Karst tie-in)
After I came West, I could more easily see Rocks and I gradually lost my
extreme reaction. But I learned what George cautioned: Immunity is lost by
repeated exposure.
Then I moved to Texas and discovered Poison Oak. It makes TREES going up the
cliffs with trunks as big around as Bob Oakley's thighs around springs in the
Big Bend. ESPECIALLY in what is now Big Bend Ranch State Park.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I forgot to mention an apocryphal story regarding my East Texas cousins who
were Piney Woods squirrel hunters in their youth and often came home with
poison ivy lesions. My aunt used an old procedure that involved my cousins
taking a certain number (which I don't remember) of ripe poison ivy seeds
by mouth for several (again, I don't remember how many) days. They were,
reportedly, cured of their sensitivity to poison ivy--or, at least, it was
greatly diminished.
--Ediger
On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:27 AM, <vivb...@att.net> wrote:
> If you're in Texas, it's Poison Ivy. Poison Oak grows on the West
> coast. the leaf and habit is pretty different, but still 3 leaflets per
> leaf, and variable. Poison Ivy forms a vine more, but will also form a
> bush.
> best way to prevent it is wash and wash and wash again with a good
> oil cutting soap. I use dawn or the brand "technu" which is specific for
> poison ivy. If you're getting new breakout bumps, then you haven't washed
> it all off yet. Half frozen wet paper towels feel really good on it.
> No one is immune to poison ivy. For some people it takes more
> exposure. The more you are exposed to it, the more sensitive you become.
> You cannot develop an immunity.
> Vivian Loftin
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Bill Walden <wdwal...@windstream.net>
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:11 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy
>
> When I was young I would break out horribly from poison ivy. At age 7
> (1949) I underwent a series of shots for poison ivy. Following those shots
> I didn't break out from contact with poison Ivy. Today it is rare for me to
> get a bubble or two after contact with that plant. I believe that the shots
> are no longer given.
>
> Bill Walden
>
>
>
> On 10/23/2013 8:59 AM, Gill Edigar wrote:
>
> A technical point or two: Reaction to Poison Ivy, etc, is a chemical
> contact condition, not an allergy.
> And I'm not sure that we can describe resistance to it as an 'immunity'
> since it's not a disease.
> I'm a little unsure about Tom's suggestion to use 'mineral spirits' which
> is a carcinogenic organic solvent, i.e.: paint thinner (among other things)
> and should not really be put on the skin. It surely ought to get rid of any
> oils, however.
> Thoughts? Info?
> --Ediger
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 6:50 AM, Kurt L. Menking <kmenk...@bcad.org>wrote:
>
> I also have a small patch of it from TCR this weekend.
>
> For many years I was immune, but while clearing our campsite with a weed
> eater for the first TCR near Luling I was super exposed. I was in shorts,
> sandals, etc. I had no idea there was poison ivy around but came down with
> it all over. After a few days of trying everything and it only getting
> worse I went to the Dr. It was better the next day, and completely gone in
> 3-4 days. Prednisone and Desoximetasone cream, both are prescription.
>
> Kurt
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you don't like the idea of mineral spirits on your skin then just use
rubbing alcohol. Works almost as good. Or buy over priced deodorized mineral
spirits(tecnu). Probably just as carcinogenic as canned paint thinners. Any of
that is way safer than the doctor. I wouldn't want the shot that's lasted over
fifty years(Bill Walden). If nothing is available water and dirt makes mud. The
more alkaline the dirt the better. Add some ash to make it even more alkaline.
Whatever it takes to get the oil off. Anything to avoid doctors.
Tom
--- Original Message ---
From: vivb...@att.net
Sent: October 23, 2013 8:27 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy
If you're in Texas, it's Poison Ivy. Poison Oak grows on the West coast. the
leaf and habit is pretty different, but still 3 leaflets per leaf, and
variable. Poison Ivy forms a vine more, but will also form a bush.
best way to prevent it is wash and wash and wash again with a good oil
cutting soap. I use dawn or the brand "technu" which is specific for poison
ivy. If you're getting new breakout bumps, then you haven't washed it all off
yet. Half frozen wet paper towels feel really good on it.
No one is immune to poison ivy. For some people it takes more exposure.
The more you are exposed to it, the more sensitive you become. You cannot
develop an immunity.
Vivian Loftin
________________________________
From: Bill Walden <wdwal...@windstream.net>
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy
When I was young I would break out horribly from poison ivy. At age 7 (1949) I
underwent a series of shots for poison ivy. Following those shots I didn't
break out from contact with poison Ivy. Today it is rare for me to get a bubble
or two after contact with that plant. I believe that the shots are no longer
given.
Bill Walden
On 10/23/2013 8:59 AM, Gill Edigar wrote:
A technical point or two: Reaction to Poison Ivy, etc, is a chemical contact
condition, not an allergy.
>And I'm not sure that we can describe resistance to it as an 'immunity' since
>it's not a disease.
>I'm a little unsure about Tom's suggestion to use 'mineral spirits' which is a
>carcinogenic organic solvent, i.e.: paint thinner (among other things) and
>should not really be put on the skin. It surely ought to get rid of any oils,
>however.
>Thoughts? Info?
>--Ediger
>
>
>
>On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 6:50 AM, Kurt L. Menking <kmenk...@bcad.org> wrote:
>
>I also have a small patch of it from TCR this weekend.
>>>
>>>For many years I was immune, but while clearing our campsite with a weed
>>>eater for the first TCR near Luling I was super exposed. I was in shorts,
>>>sandals, etc. I had no idea there was poison ivy around but came down with
>>>it all over. After a few days of trying everything and it only getting
>>>worse I went to the Dr. It was better the next day, and completely gone in
>>>3-4 days. Prednisone and Desoximetasone cream, both are prescription.
>>>
>>>Kurt
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recently went to Poison Ivy pit in Bexar County. It lives up to its name. The
sinkhole was hidden by massive vines. Completely covering it save one port hole
about 20" diameter. It was the only way in so I rappelled thru that and saw
that I could have walked into the sink hole from the other side if it wasn't
choked with poison ivy. It was hanging 10' down the pit. The cave lives up to
its name, trust me. It didn't get me that time, surprising because I was in my
"caving clothes"(for those who know my caving attire).
The worst place to get it? Not the genitals. In the eye. Salt water every ten
minutes. After that I can largely ignore regular exposures.
--- Original Message ---
From: "Gill Edigar" <gi...@att.net>
Sent: October 23, 2013 8:51 AM
To: vivb...@att.net
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy
I forgot to mention an apocryphal story regarding my East Texas cousins who
were Piney Woods squirrel hunters in their youth and often came home with
poison ivy lesions. My aunt used an old procedure that involved my cousins
taking a certain number (which I don't remember) of ripe poison ivy seeds
by mouth for several (again, I don't remember how many) days. They were,
reportedly, cured of their sensitivity to poison ivy--or, at least, it was
greatly diminished.
--Ediger
On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:27 AM, <vivb...@att.net> wrote:
> If you're in Texas, it's Poison Ivy. Poison Oak grows on the West
> coast. the leaf and habit is pretty different, but still 3 leaflets per
> leaf, and variable. Poison Ivy forms a vine more, but will also form a
> bush.
> best way to prevent it is wash and wash and wash again with a good
> oil cutting soap. I use dawn or the brand "technu" which is specific for
> poison ivy. If you're getting new breakout bumps, then you haven't washed
> it all off yet. Half frozen wet paper towels feel really good on it.
> No one is immune to poison ivy. For some people it takes more
> exposure. The more you are exposed to it, the more sensitive you become.
> You cannot develop an immunity.
> Vivian Loftin
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Bill Walden <wdwal...@windstream.net>
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:11 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy
>
> When I was young I would break out horribly from poison ivy. At age 7
> (1949) I underwent a series of shots for poison ivy. Following those shots
> I didn't break out from contact with poison Ivy. Today it is rare for me to
> get a bubble or two after contact with that plant. I believe that the shots
> are no longer given.
>
> Bill Walden
>
>
>
> On 10/23/2013 8:59 AM, Gill Edigar wrote:
>
> A technical point or two: Reaction to Poison Ivy, etc, is a chemical
> contact condition, not an allergy.
> And I'm not sure that we can describe resistance to it as an 'immunity'
> since it's not a disease.
> I'm a little unsure about Tom's suggestion to use 'mineral spirits' which
> is a carcinogenic organic solvent, i.e.: paint thinner (among other things)
> and should not really be put on the skin. It surely ought to get rid of any
> oils, however.
> Thoughts? Info?
> --Ediger
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 6:50 AM, Kurt L. Menking <kmenk...@bcad.org>wrote:
>
> I also have a small patch of it from TCR this weekend.
>
> For many years I was immune, but while clearing our campsite with a weed
> eater for the first TCR near Luling I was super exposed. I was in shorts,
> sandals, etc. I had no idea there was poison ivy around but came down with
> it all over. After a few days of trying everything and it only getting
> worse I went to the Dr. It was better the next day, and completely gone in
> 3-4 days. Prednisone and Desoximetasone cream, both are prescription.
>
> Kurt
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to say that my instincts tell me that solvents seem like a bad idea in
this case. Working in the lab if there was any kind of chemical splatter or
spill it was always soap and water to wash off the area. Solvents can enable
the offender (whatever it is) to penetrate the skin. So using these products
seems contrary to what I've learned over the years. Personally I think I'll
stick with soap (Dawn) and water for removal of the oils and then treat with
topical steroids if needed.
Mary TZ
________________________________
From: Tom Rogers <decksunlimi...@hotmail.com>
To: caverarch <cavera...@aol.com>; Texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy
I have had it many times. I have now from TCR. The best stuff to use is mineral
spirits. The main ingredient in tecnu. Any alcohol based liquid will work. Rub
it on immediately. Rinse with water after about ten minutes. There will still
be a rash but it will stop it from spreading. Rub down tools with alcohol also
to remove poison ivy oil. I suspect my repeated exposures has built immunity.
Tom
--- Original Message ---
From: "caverarch" <cavera...@aol.com>
Sent: October 22, 2013 6:12 PM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy
I am a bit more sensitive to the vine than I was in my youth. I'm sure this is
the result of repeated exposure from lots of field work in the eastern
woodlands and blissfully disregarding contact back in those days.
Roger G. Moore
-----Original Message-----
From: George Veni <gv...@nckri.org>
To: Texas Cavers <Texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy
Poison ivy never bothered me for many years, but I learned that immunity can
sometimes be lost by repeated exposure. So my advice to those who are currently
immune is to avoid it as much as possible.
George
Sent from my mobile phone
********************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215
USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org
-------- Original message --------
From: Sheryl Rieck <sheryl.ri...@gmail.com>
Date: 2013/10/22 16:31 (GMT-07:00)
To: Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net>
Cc: TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy
Good things to know. Since I am not allergic, I haven't been aware of the other
treatments.
Sheryl
Sheryl Rieck, Senior Oracle Financials Consultant
True SEM Antics, Inc.
832-632-2387 Home
361-205-1458 Cell
On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net> wrote:
A related product is Tecnu
<http://www.teclabsinc.com/products/poison-oak-ivy/tecnu>, also commonly
available at pharmacies. These products wash away the oily residue that causes
the rash . They work best when used as soon as possible after exposure, but
can help even the next day or two. Calamine (pink stuff), on the other hand,
is simply a topical anesthetic and antiseptic. It reduces itching, but doesn't
really cure the problem (treats the symptoms, not the disease). (I'm also not
affected by poison ivy, but my partner Yvonne is extremely sensitive.)
>
>Mark
>
>
>At 06:06 PM 10/22/2013, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
>
>I'm very allergic to it, I swear I can just look at a plant and it jump on me,
>always have been. The best stuff I've ever found to get rid of it is
>http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/walgreens-poison-ivy-wash/ID=prod6113607-product
>
>>
>>Of course that's a store brand, there are other products that are named
>>brand. I've used the walgreen's brand with very good results. it's
>>expensive, but worth every cent.
>>
>>Pink stuff didn't seem to work very well, my mom always put it on me. There
>>was also some form of tablet she would buy from the local pharmacist, drop it
>>into a pint of water and spread the resulting concoction on me, but I swore
>>it was just water, never seemed
to help and I don't know the name either.
>>
>>If you can, try the above link
>>
>>On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 4:47 PM, David <dlocklea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Anybody know the best proven treatment for a poison-ivy rash from personal
>>experience?
>>
>>Anybody have a good theory about how to boost immunity ?
>>
>>4 things that I feel make it worse are scratching, sunlight, heat or hot
>>water, and drying off with bath towels, all of which seem unavoidable.
>>
>>Is it true that some ethnic groups are not allergic, and that white-skinned
>>people are the most allergic ?
>>
>>David Locklear
>>
>
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
>Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Y'all sound like a bunch of old women sitting around the kitchen swapping
folk tales.
Many members of the Anacardiaceae produce Urushiol which sometimes causes
contact dermatitis among those who are allergic to the substance. It is not
a contact poison, it is an allergen, the response to which is often
systemic. That is why blisters often pop up in places where the person could
not
have possibly have come in contact with the leaves, and why washing doesn't
help. By the time you start itching the problem has gone systemic and your
whole body is reacting.
Aside from poison ivy which grows damn near everywhere, there are two
species of Toxicodendron which are called poison oak, one of which grows in
the
east and one out west. Here in Florida we have Poison ivy (Toxicodendron
radicans), Poison oak (T. pubescens), and occasionally Poison Sumac (T.
vernix).
Some folks are allergic to other members of the Anacardiaceae such as
mangoes, but for the deluxe tour I recommend Poisonwood (Metopium toxiferum),
a
pretty small tree resembling the pigeon plum which is common throughout
the Caribbean.
I am generally not allergic to poison ivy and other such things and can
wade right through the stuff, but enough is enough. Once upon a time I landed
a contract to cut a nature trail around an uninhabited island in the
Bahamas. Poisonwood constituted something like a quarter of the vegetative
biomass of the island, and as mentioned is difficult to distinguish from
pigeon
plum. Bahamian "workers" are inert, so that meant I had to do all the work
of chopping and hauling while they stood around smoking dope and
complaining about having to be in the wood where they could fall victim to
either
snakes and Duppies (both imaginary) or poisonwood. On the leeward side the
trees grew about thirty feet tall which meant that logs had to be carried on
one's shoulders. The logs were of course dripping black poison which ran
down my sweaty neck. That was bad enough and by the third day I was starting
to have a generalized reaction. About that time the trail swung around to
the windward side where the trees were only four feet tall but still arm
thick. It was an absolutely impenetrable scrub that was impervious to even the
sharpest machete. Only a chain saw would work but there were several
complications. The Bahamians had destroyed the chainsaws by cutting into rocks
(they did this both out of stupidity and because they long ago learned that
if the tools were broken they could just stand there doing nothing).
Furthermore, to cut any of the gnarly stunted trees required crawling on one's
hands and knees (without knee pads) on the jagged karst in the hundred degree
heat. As a result, the urushiol vaporized by the dull chainsaw blade
blasted straight back into my face. That did the trick. After I was blinded a
Bahamian stepped forward out of perverse pride. After he went down another
tried. After that the whole crew was medivaced out by speedboat. It seems that
the poison concentration in the leaves and stems is much greater on the
windward side of the island. Despite all that I have reacted to urushiol only
once since.
I must share one more story about that trip. It was my habit to go far
ahead with my machete to scout the way and leave a trail for the "workers".
Invariably I would come back to find them sitting down smoking dope and
listening to some story being told by Mr. Fuzzy the crew chief (a fellow whose
350 lbs wife was eaten by a pack of wild dogs in the streets of Nassau). So
I came back to find the men sitting there laughing hysterically. I asked
what was so funny and was told, "Missa Boos Missa Fuzzy him find a ting
nobody can say what it is". Mr. Fuzzy might have been lazy but he did love to
lift up rocks to look for land crabs with which to make crab soup. In lifting
up a rock he had found something inexplicable. Now bear in mind that this
was an uninhabited island in the middle of nowhere, that the scrub is
effectively impenetrable, that the trail I was cutting did not follow any
preexisting path, and that there were millions of rocks. The men pointed to a
specific rock and asked, "Missa Boos what de ting neef dat rock?" I lifted the
rock to discover a pink gelatinous mass and poked it with some trepidation
then lifted it up to discover that it was a home made artificial vagina
cast in latex. I can only attribute it to the drug smugglers who had crashed
an airplane on the island and had apparently lived there for some time as
castaways using the wings of the crashed plane for shelter. It was a
disappointment that the bales were all empty.
Sleaze
--- End Message ---
