texascavers Digest 19 Jun 2013 19:00:03 -0000 Issue 1781
Topics (messages 21992 through 22016):
[harness advice requested]
21992 by: Don Arburn
21993 by: Bill Steele
21994 by: Mark Minton
22007 by: GalenFalgout
22009 by: Leslie Ward
22010 by: Allan B. Cobb
22011 by: Stefan Creaser
22012 by: Ron R
22013 by: Ed Goff
Re: Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
21995 by: Jim Kennedy
21996 by: Butch Fralia \(CAVEDBA\)
21998 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
22000 by: Ron R
22001 by: Logan McNatt
22003 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
22005 by: Ed Goff
22006 by: GalenFalgout
Suburbans
21997 by: Mixon Bill
21999 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
latest Mars photo
22002 by: David
UT Grotto Meeting June 19th (TONIGHT!)
22004 by: Andrea Croskrey
TSA convention results
22008 by: Jill Orr
tourist capacity in caves
22014 by: Espeleo Coahuila
Re: tourist capacity
22015 by: David
22016 by: Stefan Creaser
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--- Begin Message ---
My brother asked me to recommend a caving harness under $100. I haven't bought
one in some time. What say you Texas Cavers?
Sent cellularly.
-Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GGG
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 18, 2013, at 8:04 PM, Don Arburn <[email protected]> wrote:
> My brother asked me to recommend a caving harness under $100. I haven't
> bought one in some time. What say you Texas Cavers?
>
> Sent cellularly.
> -Don
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gonzo Guano Gear harnesses, made right there in
Texas: <http://www.gonzoguanogear.com/harness.html>.
Mark
At 09:04 PM 6/18/2013, Don Arburn wrote:
My brother asked me to recommend a caving harness under $100. I
haven't bought one in some time. What say you Texas Cavers?
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just paid 60 for my ggg. I just need to add some butt loops
Sent via my Samsung Galaxy Prevail from Boost Mobile
Don Arburn <[email protected]> wrote:
>My brother asked me to recommend a caving harness under $100. I haven't bought
>one in some time. What say you Texas Cavers?
>
>Sent cellularly.
>-Don
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use GGG as well, based on it being the majority vote after asking multiple
rescue and cave folks. It has been good for me. Have not done butt loops yet
but would be nice, mostly use it for rescue stuff so I keep it pretty minimal.
Les
Sent from my iPhone...
On Jun 19, 2013, at 9:59, GalenFalgout <[email protected]> wrote:
> I just paid 60 for my ggg. I just need to add some butt loops
>
> Sent via my Samsung Galaxy Prevail from Boost Mobile
>
> Don Arburn <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> My brother asked me to recommend a caving harness under $100. I haven't
>> bought one in some time. What say you Texas Cavers?
>>
>> Sent cellularly.
>> -Don
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll suggest the GGG, too.
As for butt loops. I just used some 3 mm accessory cord. I ran the cord
through the loop at the back of the waist strap and then tied off to each
leg loop. That has worked for years--cheap, easy, and simple.
Allan
-----Original Message-----
From: GalenFalgout
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 8:59 AM
To: Don Arburn ; TSA Cavers List
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [harness advice requested]
I just paid 60 for my ggg. I just need to add some butt loops
Sent via my Samsung Galaxy Prevail from Boost Mobile
Don Arburn <[email protected]> wrote:
My brother asked me to recommend a caving harness under $100. I haven't
bought one in some time. What say you Texas Cavers?
Sent cellularly.
-Don
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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3199/6423 - Release Date: 06/19/13
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
People keep mentioning these butt loops, so I have to ask... Why doesn't the
harness come with them in the first place? Would seem like poor design to me...
-S
-----Original Message-----
From: Allan B. Cobb [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:27 AM
To: GalenFalgout; TSA Cavers List
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [harness advice requested]
I'll suggest the GGG, too.
As for butt loops. I just used some 3 mm accessory cord. I ran the cord
through the loop at the back of the waist strap and then tied off to each leg
loop. That has worked for years--cheap, easy, and simple.
Allan
-----Original Message-----
From: GalenFalgout
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 8:59 AM
To: Don Arburn ; TSA Cavers List
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [harness advice requested]
I just paid 60 for my ggg. I just need to add some butt loops
Sent via my Samsung Galaxy Prevail from Boost Mobile
Don Arburn <[email protected]> wrote:
>My brother asked me to recommend a caving harness under $100. I haven't
>bought one in some time. What say you Texas Cavers?
>
>Sent cellularly.
>-Don
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>[email protected]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3199/6423 - Release Date: 06/19/13
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I added leg padding and a padded/adjustable butt loop to my GGG harness, to
make the perfect harness for me.
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Stefan Creaser <[email protected]>wrote:
> People keep mentioning these butt loops, so I have to ask... Why doesn't
> the harness come with them in the first place? Would seem like poor design
> to me...
>
> -S
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allan B. Cobb [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:27 AM
> To: GalenFalgout; TSA Cavers List
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [harness advice requested]
>
> I'll suggest the GGG, too.
>
> As for butt loops. I just used some 3 mm accessory cord. I ran the cord
> through the loop at the back of the waist strap and then tied off to each
> leg loop. That has worked for years--cheap, easy, and simple.
>
> Allan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GalenFalgout
> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 8:59 AM
> To: Don Arburn ; TSA Cavers List
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [harness advice requested]
>
> I just paid 60 for my ggg. I just need to add some butt loops
>
> Sent via my Samsung Galaxy Prevail from Boost Mobile
>
> Don Arburn <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >My brother asked me to recommend a caving harness under $100. I haven't
> >bought one in some time. What say you Texas Cavers?
> >
> >Sent cellularly.
> >-Don
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >[email protected]
> >For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
> >
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3199/6423 - Release Date: 06/19/13
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
>
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>
--
Ron Rutherford
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The MTDE Amazonia is my favorite. Comfortable, fairly compact, rugged,
and the lowest attachment point of any harness I've tried, which is
great for frogging. I don't know if anybody's importing it these
days--with international shipping and exchange rates it might not
quite fit <$100. I think I got mine from starlessriver.com in the UK.
I also used a GGG harness for a few years and liked it fine without a
butt loop.
Ed
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Ron R <[email protected]> wrote:
> I added leg padding and a padded/adjustable butt loop to my GGG harness, to
> make the perfect harness for me.
>
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Stefan Creaser <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>
>> People keep mentioning these butt loops, so I have to ask... Why doesn't
>> the harness come with them in the first place? Would seem like poor design
>> to me...
>>
>> -S
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Allan B. Cobb [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:27 AM
>> To: GalenFalgout; TSA Cavers List
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [harness advice requested]
>>
>> I'll suggest the GGG, too.
>>
>> As for butt loops. I just used some 3 mm accessory cord. I ran the cord
>> through the loop at the back of the waist strap and then tied off to each
>> leg loop. That has worked for years--cheap, easy, and simple.
>>
>> Allan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: GalenFalgout
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 8:59 AM
>> To: Don Arburn ; TSA Cavers List
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [harness advice requested]
>>
>> I just paid 60 for my ggg. I just need to add some butt loops
>>
>> Sent via my Samsung Galaxy Prevail from Boost Mobile
>>
>> Don Arburn <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >My brother asked me to recommend a caving harness under $100. I haven't
>> >bought one in some time. What say you Texas Cavers?
>> >
>> >Sent cellularly.
>> >-Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Austin has emissions testing also, so I’m out as a buyer.
-- Jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's similar to my 1988 'burb 3/4 ton 4x4. Mine was a RV Special, special
ordered from the factory with all heavy duty options. Ever two years the
previous owner (owned a construction company) bought his wife a new caddy and
bought custom ordered a new suburban for himself. Big car lots consider any
trade in with over 70,000 miles as a high mileage vehicle and try to get rid of
them as soon a possible. This one had 73,000 miles on it and a winch, nobody
wanted it with the 8,000 lb Warren wench. Got a great deal on it, drove it
until it had 170,000+ miles and sold it to Ed Goff (first truck I ever owned I
was willing to sell to someone I knew their name.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4269590157797&set=a.1528064181361.61354.1827398679&type=1&theater
- it's a public photo on Facebook so you may see it without an account. loved
that truck!
Butch
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 6:16 PM
To: Cave NM; Cave Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
Know of anyone out there that might be interested? This is definitely a great
bargain and One Big Tough Truck. I have been driving it and I think Dan has
honestly advertised it.
.
Go to the Drop Box Link.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ee5388v3338m6u7/1988%20Suburban.docx?m
Dwight
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I depends on how they require it, Jim. This is a 25 year old vehicle. a 1988.
What are your local emission testing requirements for something that age?
DirtDoc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Kennedy" <[email protected]>
To: "Don Arburn" <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Cc: "Cave Texas" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:44:25 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
Austin has emissions testing also, so I’m out as a buyer.
-- Jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
not in Hays county.
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:44 PM, Jim Kennedy <[email protected]> wrote:
> Austin has emissions testing also, so I’m out as a buyer.****
>
> ** **
>
> -- Jim****
>
--
Ron Rutherford
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it's 25 years or older, it doesn't have to pass emissions testing.
Logan
(owner of 1988 Toyota)
On 6/18/2013 10:27 PM, [email protected] wrote:
I depends on how they require it, Jim. This is a 25 year old vehicle. a 1988. What are your local emission testing requirements for
something that age?
DirtDoc
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"Jim Kennedy" <[email protected]>
*To: *"Don Arburn" <[email protected]>, [email protected]
*Cc: *"Cave Texas" <[email protected]>
*Sent: *Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:44:25 PM
*Subject: *RE: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
Austin has emissions testing also, so I'm out as a buyer.
-- Jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Logan. I thought that was the case, but was not sure. In Colorado the
testing requirements are quite variable from one municipality/area to another .
The Front Range is especially strict. Denver has been under the EPA gun due
to our setting against the Rocky Mountains and our sometimes miserable air .
It is estimated to cost $900+ to put the original, rather worthless, smog
stuff back on to Moby Dick and it would not clean up the emissions that much.
1988 technology was just not that good.
DirtDoc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Logan McNatt" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: "Jim Kennedy" <[email protected]>, "Cave Texas"
<[email protected]>, "Don Arburn" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:20:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
If it's 25 years or older, it doesn't have to pass emissions testing.
Logan
(owner of 1988 Toyota)
On 6/18/2013 10:27 PM, [email protected] wrote:
I depends on how they require it, Jim. This is a 25 year old vehicle. a 1988.
What are your local emission testing requirements for something that age?
DirtDoc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Kennedy" <[email protected]>
To: "Don Arburn" <[email protected]> , [email protected]
Cc: "Cave Texas" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:44:25 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
Austin has emissions testing also, so I’m out as a buyer.
-- Jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Butch,
That was a great truck, and I never regretted buying her from you. In
fact, after I got her up to about 230K miles, I sold her for a
"profit" (not counting several repairs and some minor restoration
work). She never let me down south of the border, and the stateside
breakdowns are now fond memories, like when the fuel pump died as I
was turning across traffic into the path of an oncoming
bus--ironically, on my way to a first aid course. Good times! I sold
her to someone from SLP, so who knows, she and her great big winch may
be roaming the sierra even now.
Ed
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 9:01 PM, Butch Fralia (CAVEDBA) <[email protected]> wrote:
> That's similar to my 1988 'burb 3/4 ton 4x4. Mine was a RV Special, special
> ordered from the factory with all heavy duty options. Ever two years the
> previous owner (owned a construction company) bought his wife a new caddy
> and bought custom ordered a new suburban for himself. Big car lots consider
> any trade in with over 70,000 miles as a high mileage vehicle and try to get
> rid of them as soon a possible. This one had 73,000 miles on it and a
> winch, nobody wanted it with the 8,000 lb Warren wench. Got a great deal on
> it, drove it until it had 170,000+ miles and sold it to Ed Goff (first truck
> I ever owned I was willing to sell to someone I knew their name.
>
>
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4269590157797&set=a.1528064181361.61354.1827398679&type=1&theater
> - it's a public photo on Facebook so you may see it without an account.
> loved that truck!
>
>
>
> Butch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
looks like one bad truck to me"
Sent via my Samsung Galaxy Prevail from Boost Mobile
Don Arburn <[email protected]> wrote:
>It's all good sir!
>
>Sent cellularly.
>-Don
>
>On Jun 18, 2013, at 7:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> I've been too far out of the Texican loop for too long, Don. Sounds as if
>> you are correct as far as any pull-off contest is concerned. I should have
>> come over and admired Moby when we were together in Brackettville a couple
>> of April Fools ago ----
>>
>>
>>
>> I must also admit that this is not quite as stout as the 1969 green 3/4 ton
>> that I drove over 480,000. GMC has slowly cheapened their light trucks.
>>
>>
>>
>> DirtDoc
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I owned serial Suburbans back in the day, starting back when they were
actually trucks and not all tricked out like rolling whorehouses with
headliners and the like. There was actually metal on the interior that
you could screw stuff to. My first one had only three doors, two on
the curb side and one for the driver--not counting the tailgate, of
course. The second seat was optional back then, and had to be unbolted
to be removed. My experience with them has made me swear to never buy
anything from GM again, and I haven't. Mostly nuisances like broken
door handles, failed light switches, snapped speedometer cables, leaky
driveline seals, etc. etc. etc. An engine-mount bolt fell out up in
the Purificación cave area in Mexico. When a fuel pump failed on one
of them, a dealer fixed it but returned the truck to me with the
sparkplug wires mixed up. (Not clear why they were even removed.) The
last straw was when my last one had a total ignition failure on the
way home from a Sunday swim two days before I had to leave for an NSS
convention somewhere in the NW. Then on the way home the fuel pump on
that one went out, too. I suppose some people think things like that
just add spice to a trip. I kept none of them beyond ~ 130K miles.
"Your mileage may vary." -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Like Bill, I have been driving two Tortugas that many of you know. The first
was a 59 1/2 ton I bought in 1961 , the second the 3/4 ton with a one-ton front
axel that Ken Laidlaw bought new. When he got tired of his Big Toy, I bought it
and put it to Real Work . I ended up after 30 years with over 480K on that one
(with four hart transplants) . In 2003 I gave it to my son in Albuquerque. I
was trying to get it to an NSS convention and put it in the auction, but it
did not quite happen. Pity!
The 3/4 ton 1988's were about at the peak of Suburban toughness and
durability, although there wa s a sight degrading compared to my 69, but only
an expert would see it. A far cry from the truck-on-a-passenger -car-chassis
that have been produced since. I really would not want one of the new ones -
there are better vehicles out there for my - and most cavers - purposes.
The really smart upgrade (along with a bunch of other things) t hat Dan added
to this one is the 25% Gear Vendors overdrive. I think he is probably quite
honest when he says he got 16-17 MPG in overdrive driving 75MPH on the
interstate from Seattle to Estes Park ( 1500 miles). That truck is about 6000
pounds, empty. You should read all the upgrades he has done to the thing -
on the DropBox link.
DirtDoc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mixon Bill" <[email protected]>
To: "Cavers Texas" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:51:00 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Suburbans
I owned serial Suburbans back in the day, starting back when they were
actually trucks and not all tricked out like rolling whorehouses with
headliners and the like. There was actually metal on the interior that
you could screw stuff to. My first one had only three doors, two on
the curb side and one for the driver--not counting the tailgate, of
course. The second seat was optional back then, and had to be unbolted
to be removed. My experience with them has made me swear to never buy
anything from GM again, and I haven't. Mostly nuisances like broken
door handles, failed light switches, snapped speedometer cables, leaky
driveline seals, etc. etc. etc. An engine-mount bolt fell out up in
the Purificación cave area in Mexico. When a fuel pump failed on one
of them, a dealer fixed it but returned the truck to me with the
sparkplug wires mixed up. (Not clear why they were even removed.) The
last straw was when my last one had a total ignition failure on the
way home from a Sunday swim two days before I had to leave for an NSS
convention somewhere in the NW. Then on the way home the fuel pump on
that one went out, too. I suppose some people think things like that
just add spice to a trip. I kept none of them beyond ~ 130K miles.
"Your mileage may vary." -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.spaceflight101.com/uploads/6/4/0/6/6406961/7960414_orig.jpg
Is that a very tiny speleothem on the right ?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy Texas Cavers,
Tonight we are going to have local cavers talk about some local caving.
Yay! Peter Sprouse will be sharing about recent caving in Hays County and
Bryce Smith will be talking about Hendrix Riverside Caves. See you all
tonight! UT Grotto meeting - Wednesday from 7:45PM- 9:00PM
University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall (156 West 24th Street,
Austin TX 78712) http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html
For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see
www.utgrotto.org
Before the meeting, take advantage of Sao Paulo www.saopaulos.net for
happy hour specials. This area is the best place to park and meet folks
walking over to the meeting. Then after the official meeting, we continue
with the decades long tradition to reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall
tales of caving at Posse East. www.posse-east.com
Cavingly,
Andrea Croskrey
UT Grotto Vice Chair
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can anyone send me the results of the TSA Salon please.
I know Kayla won mapping and Saj a couple of honorable mentions for
photography.
Thanks!
Jill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have some information about, how you can calculate, tourist capacity
in caves?
Moni
--
LCC. Monica Grissel Ponce Gonzalez
Asociacion Coahuilense de Espeleologia, A.C. (fundadora)
Associazione Geografica La Venta- Italia (socia)
Centro de Estudios Karsticos La Venta (socia)
Grupo Espeleologico Vaxakmen, A.C. (socia)
Association for Mexican Cave Studies (colaboradora)
Texas Speleological Association (Socia)
Union Mexicana de Agrupaciones Espeleologicas (Socia)
045-844-1478311 cel.
monicaponce1 by skype.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since tourist have to stay on the trail, you first have to calculate the area
in square meters of the entire trail. Presume it is just a very long
rectangle. Then imagine each tourist is a circle with a diameter of 1 meter.
So how many 1 meter diameter circles can you fit in the imaginary rectangle ?
Then you have to multiply number that by 0.80 because 20 % of the passage will
have natural and man-made obstacles.
Then you have to consider are there wheel-chaired tourist. And is the path
one-way or two-way or three-way.
And you have to figure in how many restrooms you have, how fast the tour moves.
And how many emergency exits are there ? Or if there is a "teleferico" or
elevator.
And with any math #, you just have to multiply or divide the traditional pi
number to get a number that sounds logical.
The number always comes out to be around 100, plus or minus one.
David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I’d have thought the capacity could be calculated by seeing how many you could
fit in there before they ran out of air and stopped breathing ;-)
Stefan
From: David Locklear [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 1:50 PM
To: CaveTex
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: tourist capacity
Since tourist have to stay on the trail, you first have to calculate the area
in square meters of the entire trail. Presume it is just a very long
rectangle. Then imagine each tourist is a circle with a diameter of 1 meter.
So how many 1 meter diameter circles can you fit in the imaginary rectangle ?
Then you have to multiply number that by 0.80 because 20 % of the passage will
have natural and man-made obstacles.
Then you have to consider are there wheel-chaired tourist. And is the path
one-way or two-way or three-way.
And you have to figure in how many restrooms you have, how fast the tour moves.
And how many emergency exits are there ? Or if there is a "teleferico" or
elevator.
And with any math #, you just have to multiply or divide the traditional pi
number to get a number that sounds logical.
The number always comes out to be around 100, plus or minus one.
David Locklear
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
medium. Thank you.
--- End Message ---
