texascavers Digest 26 Jul 2012 01:51:41 -0000 Issue 1597
Topics (messages 20414 through 20421):
Re: fumes in CC visitor center
20414 by: Louise Power
20417 by: Jim Evatt
20418 by: Louise Power
Re: :[i] Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: I need help in Spain
20415 by: Louise Power
printing photos
20416 by: Mixon Bill
20419 by: Jill Orr
Re: fumes
20420 by: Logan McNatt
20421 by: Louise Power
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
Wait!!! You mean I sent them all my canaries for nothing?! After all, Gary,
it's really not a mine anymore.
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]; [email protected]
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:20:57 -0500
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
>
> Folks,
>
> I agree with Bill, when using solvent based paints (or for that matter, any
> hazards material) in a confined space, it is much quicker, easier and cheaper
> to use humans to determine if you've exceeded any health related chemical
> thresholds verses real time air monitoring or canaries. Most of the time,
> most folks become violently ill before they actually die. While this is not
> the recommended method by the American Council of Governmental Industrial
> Hygienists, it seems to be the technique most often used by industry. When
> employees get sick, it is probably time to give them at least a 15 minute
> break. You don't have to worry about long term exposures such as an increased
> risk of lung or blood cancers as those folks probably won't be working for
> you in 20 years anyway so not your problem.
>
> Matter of fact, with substances such as asbestos or silica dust, by allowing
> humans in a contaminated work area without respirators, they actually help
> clean the air as the lungs retain some of the asbestos fibers or silica
> (good for the room, bad for the lungs). If you would like to see an
> excellent presentation on silicoses and the Hawks Nest Tunnel in West
> Virginia and the largest industrial accident in US History, you may want to
> visit Helen Lang's web page
> http://www.geo.wvu.edu/~lang/Geol484/HN-shorter.pdf
>
> I'm sure that the contractor read and followed all of the warning labels and
> safety precautions for use of the product and that it was really safe for use
> in a confined environment and that the manufacturers warning about using the
> product only in well ventilated areas was just to protect them from lawsuits.
>
>
> Using canaries for air monitoring has fallen out of favor in recent years as
> they are cute and folks get attached to them. In addition, there are a number
> of powerful animal rights groups that help protect their interests (wonder
> how that would work for humans). The correct method would be to develop a
> health and safety plan that would require proper environmental controls such
> as ventilation, selecting appropriate chemicals, using protective equipment,
> closing down the facility, and air monitoring. However, that all costs time
> and money.
>
> G
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mixon Bill [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:40 AM
> To: Cavers Texas
> Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
>
> The fact that a few staff "had to" be taken to hospital does not prove that
> there was any real danger or there were any real injuries, given the "excess
> of caution" (wimpishness) that prevails these days. One would have to know
> more to decide. -- Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use,
> save:
> Personal: [email protected]
> AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>
>
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> [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
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>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is an almost sure prevention for this form of stupidity. It is called the
M.S.D.S., the Material Safety Data Sheet. I is supposed to be read BEFORE you
open the container or apply the stuff!
E ^v^
From: Louise Power
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:24 AM
To: Geary Schindel ; Bill Mixon ; Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
Wait!!! You mean I sent them all my canaries for nothing?! After all, Gary,
it's really not a mine anymore.
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]; [email protected]
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:20:57 -0500
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
>
> Folks,
>
> I agree with Bill, when using solvent based paints (or for that matter, any
> hazards material) in a confined space, it is much quicker, easier and cheaper
> to use humans to determine if you've exceeded any health related chemical
> thresholds verses real time air monitoring or canaries. Most of the time,
> most folks become violently ill before they actually die. While this is not
> the recommended method by the American Council of Governmental Industrial
> Hygienists, it seems to be the technique most often used by industry. When
> employees get sick, it is probably time to give them at least a 15 minute
> break. You don't have to worry about long term exposures such as an increased
> risk of lung or blood cancers as those folks probably won't be working for
> you in 20 years anyway so not your problem.
>
> Matter of fact, with substances such as asbestos or silica dust, by allowing
> humans in a contaminated work area without respirators, they actually help
> clean the air as the lungs retain some of the asbestos fibers or silica (good
> for the room, bad for the lungs). If you would like to see an excellent
> presentation on silicoses and the Hawks Nest Tunnel in West Virginia and the
> largest industrial accident in US History, you may want to visit Helen Lang's
> web page http://www.geo.wvu.edu/~lang/Geol484/HN-shorter.pdf
>
> I'm sure that the contractor read and followed all of the warning labels and
> safety precautions for use of the product and that it was really safe for use
> in a confined environment and that the manufacturers warning about using the
> product only in well ventilated areas was just to protect them from lawsuits.
>
> Using canaries for air monitoring has fallen out of favor in recent years as
> they are cute and folks get attached to them. In addition, there are a number
> of powerful animal rights groups that help protect their interests (wonder
> how that would work for humans). The correct method would be to develop a
> health and safety plan that would require proper environmental controls such
> as ventilation, selecting appropriate chemicals, using protective equipment,
> closing down the facility, and air monitoring. However, that all costs time
> and money.
>
> G
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mixon Bill [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:40 AM
> To: Cavers Texas
> Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
>
> The fact that a few staff "had to" be taken to hospital does not prove that
> there was any real danger or there were any real injuries, given the "excess
> of caution" (wimpishness) that prevails these days. One would have to know
> more to decide. -- Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use,
> save:
> Personal: [email protected]
> AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My personal experience has been that folks who don't work in industry or in a
government agency which has a hazmat specialist on board have never heard of an
MSDS. Wouldn't know what it meant if they had one. At BLM, we're required to
take hazmat training once/year. It's especially critical here in Oregon and
other states where meth labs and dumps are so prominent on public lands.
:-( Louise
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:51:38 -0600
There is an almost sure prevention for this form of stupidity. It is called
the M.S.D.S., the Material Safety Data Sheet. I is supposed to be read BEFORE
you open the container or apply the stuff!
E ^v^
From: Louise Power
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:24 AM
To: Geary Schindel ; Bill
Mixon ; Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor
center
Wait!!! You mean I sent them all my canaries for nothing?!
After all, Gary, it's really not a mine anymore.
> From:
[email protected]
> To: [email protected];
[email protected]
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:20:57
-0500
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
>
> Folks,
>
> I agree with Bill, when using solvent based
paints (or for that matter, any hazards material) in a confined space, it is
much quicker, easier and cheaper to use humans to determine if you've exceeded
any health related chemical thresholds verses real time air monitoring or
canaries. Most of the time, most folks become violently ill before they
actually
die. While this is not the recommended method by the American Council of
Governmental Industrial Hygienists, it seems to be the technique most often
used
by industry. When employees get sick, it is probably time to give them at least
a 15 minute break. You don't have to worry about long term exposures such as an
increased risk of lung or blood cancers as those folks probably won't be
working
for you in 20 years anyway so not your problem.
>
> Matter of fact,
with substances such as asbestos or silica dust, by allowing humans in a
contaminated work area without respirators, they actually help clean the air as
the lungs retain some of the asbestos fibers or silica (good for the room, bad
for the lungs). If you would like to see an excellent presentation on silicoses
and the Hawks Nest Tunnel in West Virginia and the largest industrial accident
in US History, you may want to visit Helen Lang's web page
http://www.geo.wvu.edu/~lang/Geol484/HN-shorter.pdf
>
> I'm sure
that the contractor read and followed all of the warning labels and safety
precautions for use of the product and that it was really safe for use in a
confined environment and that the manufacturers warning about using the product
only in well ventilated areas was just to protect them from lawsuits.
>
> Using canaries for air monitoring has fallen out of favor in recent
years as they are cute and folks get attached to them. In addition, there are a
number of powerful animal rights groups that help protect their interests
(wonder how that would work for humans). The correct method would be to develop
a health and safety plan that would require proper environmental controls such
as ventilation, selecting appropriate chemicals, using protective equipment,
closing down the facility, and air monitoring. However, that all costs time and
money.
>
> G
>
>
>
>
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Mixon Bill
[mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:40
AM
> To: Cavers Texas
> Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor
center
>
> The fact that a few staff "had to" be taken to hospital
does not prove that there was any real danger or there were any real injuries,
given the "excess of caution" (wimpishness) that prevails these days. One would
have to know more to decide. -- Mixon
>
----------------------------------------
> Forgive your enemies . . .
after they are hanged.
> ----------------------------------------
>
You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use,
save:
> Personal: [email protected]
> AMCS:
[email protected] or [email protected]
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
[email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail:
[email protected]
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
[email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail:
[email protected]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quick, Mark, get in touch with Allan Cobb before he sends all his Nigerian $$$
to Spain.
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:31:16 -0500
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
CC: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: :[i] Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: I need help in Spain
I need help here in Mesquite. Send ME some money! Mark From: Allan B. Cobb
[mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:11 AM
To: Diana Tomchick
Cc: Cave Tex
Subject: s::[i] Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: I need help in Spain It's a scam?!?! I
just sent him the $4.5 million I won in the Nigerian lottery. Boy do I feel
dumb.
Sent with my fat thumbs on my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Diana Tomchick
<[email protected]> wrote:Just in case there isn't someone out
there that doesn't know this is a scam (and there still are people, thank the
Lord my mother doesn't have an email account), please don't send the money.
Tom, you've been hacked. Diana * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * *Diana R. TomchickProfessorUniversity of Texas Southwestern Medical
CenterDepartment of Biophysics5323 Harry Hines Blvd.Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX
75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: [email protected]
(phone)214-645-6353 (fax)
Begin forwarded message:
From: Tom Brown <[email protected]>Subject: I need help in SpainDate: July 25,
2012 6:41:05 AM CDTTo: <[email protected]>Reply-To: <[email protected]> I just
arrived in Spain, I need your help, I'm in a fix. Can I get a loan of €1,360?
You'll have it as soon as I get back home. I lost my bank card, I'll appreciate
what you can give if not all. Western Union happens to be fastest and secure
means. Kindly get it wired to my name, current location :- Narvaez 69 - Esquina
Calle Sainz De Baranda, ZIP Code: 28009 Madrid, Spain. I will also need the
MTCN on the receipt that will be give to you by the Western Union to pick up
the money here. I really appreciate this.
Thanks
Tom
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
File size is not a very good indication of whether the resolution of a
photo file is good enough. You can easily change the file size by a
factor of 10 by JPEG compression that makes no visible difference in
the photograph and does not change the resolution.
The printer that I think the Texas Caver uses (I steered it to them)
prints halftones at 150 DPI. The rule of thumb used to be that you
wanted to start with 150% of that resolution, which would be 225 DPI.
The printer asks for 300 for grayscale or color illustrations and 600
for black-and-white line copy such as cave maps. What I usually ask
people to send for the Association for Mexican Cave Studies is photos
that are at least 1200 pixels high or wide. The largest I usually
print photos is 4.44 inches, so that is good enough, even when I do
some cropping. If I want to use a photo on the cover, I go back and
ask for more.
Actually, it takes a powerful magnifier to see a difference in the
printed results, even if a map starts out at 300 DPI or a photo at
150. Where you really get in trouble is something that is just screen
resolution. Beware of photo software with one-click methods for e-
mailing or posting photos. Those typically automatically reduce the
resolution (and file size) on the assumption that the result is to be
viewed on-screen. E-mail the actual original photo file as an
attachment. Even with the highest quality JPEG compression, it won't
be bigger than 10 MB. (Do _not_ JPEG line copy such as cave maps. ZIP
or LZW compression is OK. As there is no such thing as a black-and-
white JPEG, this question doesn't arise, unless you've used grays or
colors in the map.)
Jill, the printer's prepress people will fuss if illustrations are
less than their recommended resolution or color illustrations are not
CMYK. Save yourself an exchange of e-mails and include in the
instructions with the PDF files something like "I know some
illustrations are less than the recommended resolution. They are the
best available. Don't worry about it. If I have forgotten to make a
color photo CMYK, don't worry about that, either." There is, of
course, no point in your upsampling (or downsampling) things just to
keep them happy. You probably already know that you have to be careful
making PDFs. Acrobat by default JPEG-compresses or downsamples things,
unless you tell it not to.
--Mixon
----------------------------------------
Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the great info Bill.
I learned a couple things I wasn't aware of, but I stand by my request:
Please don't send double digit files size photos. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Mixon Bill [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 1:40 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] printing photos
File size is not a very good indication of whether the resolution of a photo
file is good enough. You can easily change the file size by a factor of 10
by JPEG compression that makes no visible difference in the photograph and
does not change the resolution.
The printer that I think the Texas Caver uses (I steered it to them) prints
halftones at 150 DPI. The rule of thumb used to be that you wanted to start
with 150% of that resolution, which would be 225 DPI.
The printer asks for 300 for grayscale or color illustrations and 600 for
black-and-white line copy such as cave maps. What I usually ask people to
send for the Association for Mexican Cave Studies is photos that are at
least 1200 pixels high or wide. The largest I usually print photos is 4.44
inches, so that is good enough, even when I do some cropping. If I want to
use a photo on the cover, I go back and ask for more.
Actually, it takes a powerful magnifier to see a difference in the printed
results, even if a map starts out at 300 DPI or a photo at 150. Where you
really get in trouble is something that is just screen resolution. Beware of
photo software with one-click methods for e- mailing or posting photos.
Those typically automatically reduce the resolution (and file size) on the
assumption that the result is to be viewed on-screen. E-mail the actual
original photo file as an attachment. Even with the highest quality JPEG
compression, it won't be bigger than 10 MB. (Do _not_ JPEG line copy such as
cave maps. ZIP or LZW compression is OK. As there is no such thing as a
black-and- white JPEG, this question doesn't arise, unless you've used grays
or colors in the map.)
Jill, the printer's prepress people will fuss if illustrations are less than
their recommended resolution or color illustrations are not CMYK. Save
yourself an exchange of e-mails and include in the instructions with the PDF
files something like "I know some illustrations are less than the
recommended resolution. They are the best available. Don't worry about it.
If I have forgotten to make a color photo CMYK, don't worry about that,
either." There is, of course, no point in your upsampling (or downsampling)
things just to keep them happy. You probably already know that you have to
be careful making PDFs. Acrobat by default JPEG-compresses or downsamples
things, unless you tell it not to.
--Mixon
----------------------------------------
Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term
use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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[email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
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--- Begin Message ---
So Preston, we won't be severely injured/killed by an explosion, just die an
excrutiating miserable slow death by methane?
:-(
LowGun
On 7/25/2012 10:33 AM, Preston Forsythe wrote:
That's why I recommended the new approved coal miners light on this forum a month or so ago as the light is methane proof allowing you to
breath about anything with setting off an explosion.
Preston
--------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mixon Bill" <[email protected]>
To: "Cavers Texas" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:29 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] fumes
The "power of suggestion" is indeed powerful. If you think fumes are making you
sick, they very well might. -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
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--- Begin Message ---
As I was saying to Jim Evatt, contractors on fed jobs are required by law to
have Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDSs) on the jobsite for all materials being
used. All you have to do is ask to see them. Unfortunately most people know
that. I only know it because we're required to take hazmat training yearly.
Louise
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 18:38:02 -0500
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] fumes
So Preston, we won't be
severely injured/killed by an explosion, just die an
excrutiating miserable slow death by methane?
:-(
LowGun
On 7/25/2012 10:33 AM, Preston Forsythe wrote:
That's why I recommended the new approved coal miners
light on this forum a month or so ago as the light is methane
proof allowing you to breath about anything with setting off an
explosion.
Preston
--------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mixon Bill"
<[email protected]>
To: "Cavers Texas" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:29 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] fumes
The "power of suggestion" is indeed
powerful. If you think fumes are making you sick, they very well
might. -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
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