texascavers Digest 6 Aug 2011 10:50:34 -0000 Issue 1361

Sat, 6 Aug 2011 03:50:58 -0700 (PDT) 

texascavers Digest 6 Aug 2011 10:50:34 -0000 Issue 1361

Topics (messages 18289 through 18296):

Re: BexarGrotto Going Away Party
        18289 by: Geary Schindel

where a man can breathe free
        18290 by: BMorgan994.aol.com
        18291 by: Fritz Holt
        18292 by: Geary Schindel
        18293 by: Fritz Holt

Re: Austinites, here come the brown outs -- not necessarily OT
        18294 by: Rod Goke
        18295 by: gschindel.mindspring.com

Re: where a man can breathe free, and relevance to caves
        18296 by: Rod Goke

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message --- 
OK folks, I’m sure much to your disappointment, I’m not going anywhere for a 
while – that I know about.

However, Good Ole Drew Wendeborn is leaving the area for sights unseen and a 
new job.  Something about wanting a career, cooler weather, and more rain – 
yes, a lot more rain.

He will leave a big hole in the Texas caving community that has benefited from 
his leadership and energy.  If you’re interested in the hole, ask at the party, 
I hear it’s a hot lead.

So, WE (Sue, Aspen and Geary) are having a party for Drew on Saturday at the 
Schindel household.  (No, I won’t have the hot tub running, it’s too damn hot 
you knuckleheads).

Anyway, everyone is welcome, if you need some floor space, we would be happy to 
accommodate.

Thanks,

Geary Schindel – who is staying in Texas a while longer.



From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 11:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] BexarGrotto Going Away Party

Howdy cavers,

Well, my time caving in Texas has come to an abrupt end. I've recently
accepted a job offer from a LiDAR company in Portland, Oregon and will be
moving from San Antonio this weekend.

Geary and Sue Schindel have asked that I invite fellow cavers over to
their house this Saturday for a going away party. It will be a potluck
starting at 7pm and the grill will be going as well. Their address is 11310
Whisper Dawn, San Antonio, TX 78230. Hope to see you there.

Cheers,
Drew Wendeborn

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
 

In a message dated 8/5/2011 4:12:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[email protected] writes:

If all  the people fretting over the numerous environmental and social 
problems  resulting from overpopulation were to focus instead on the primary 
underlying  cause, we might reverse this trend and see real progress towards 
long range  solutions and improving quality of life for future  generations
 
Amen! Here in Hogtown the living is still easy, the moss hangs from the  
live oaks and all is well until the Students return. Gainesville is the Austin 
 of Florida, but the big difference is that there are damned near two 
million  Texacans in Austin but only about 250,000 gators in the Hogtown metro 
area. The  reason for that is that we don't want no stinking jobs or new 
businesses unless  they are directly related to University of Florida biotech 
spinoffs. As soon as  they become successful they move to Austin taking the 
redundant grad students  with them. We make it a point to screw every developer 
who sticks his head out  of a hole. We often lose, but we still cost the 
developers millions every time  they try. We don't want no stinking roads 
either. The bad news is the dawning of  the age of biomass. It seems we have 
way 
too many trees, so the plan is to burn  them in place of coal. After they 
cut down all the trees maybe I'll move to  Detroit. I hear there are wide 
open spaces out there where a man can breathe  free.
 
Sleaze

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
As stated a couple of years ago when it started a surprising string, I love the 
now famous words spoken by the Mexican bandit in Bogart's movie, "The Treasure 
of Sierra Madre", played by Alfonso Bedoya (who once tried to pick up my mother 
in Mexico City)."Badges?, We don't need no stinking badges". He probably did 
the coolest portrayal of a Mexican bandit ever due to his manner of speaking 
and wry grin. Don't miss it when it plays.

Fritz

________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 3:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] where a man can breathe free


In a message dated 8/5/2011 4:12:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[email protected] writes:
If all the people fretting over the numerous environmental and social problems 
resulting from overpopulation were to focus instead on the primary underlying 
cause, we might reverse this trend and see real progress towards long range 
solutions and improving quality of life for future generations

Amen! Here in Hogtown the living is still easy, the moss hangs from the live 
oaks and all is well until the Students return. Gainesville is the Austin of 
Florida, but the big difference is that there are damned near two million 
Texacans in Austin but only about 250,000 gators in the Hogtown metro area. The 
reason for that is that we don't want no stinking jobs or new businesses unless 
they are directly related to University of Florida biotech spinoffs. As soon as 
they become successful they move to Austin taking the redundant grad students 
with them. We make it a point to screw every developer who sticks his head out 
of a hole. We often lose, but we still cost the developers millions every time 
they try. We don't want no stinking roads either. The bad news is the dawning 
of the age of biomass. It seems we have way too many trees, so the plan is to 
burn them in place of coal. After they cut down all the trees maybe I'll move 
to Detroit. I hear there are wide open spaces out there where a man can breathe 
free.

Sleaze

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Bedoya tried to pick up your mom, sounds like a good way to throw out your back.

G

From: Fritz Holt [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 4:17 PM
To: '[email protected]'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] where a man can breathe free

As stated a couple of years ago when it started a surprising string, I love the 
now famous words spoken by the Mexican bandit in Bogart's movie, "The Treasure 
of Sierra Madre", played by Alfonso Bedoya (who once tried to pick up my mother 
in Mexico City)."Badges?, We don't need no stinking badges". He probably did 
the coolest portrayal of a Mexican bandit ever due to his manner of speaking 
and wry grin. Don't miss it when it plays.

Fritz

________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 3:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] where a man can breathe free


In a message dated 8/5/2011 4:12:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[email protected] writes:
If all the people fretting over the numerous environmental and social problems 
resulting from overpopulation were to focus instead on the primary underlying 
cause, we might reverse this trend and see real progress towards long range 
solutions and improving quality of life for future generations

Amen! Here in Hogtown the living is still easy, the moss hangs from the live 
oaks and all is well until the Students return. Gainesville is the Austin of 
Florida, but the big difference is that there are damned near two million 
Texacans in Austin but only about 250,000 gators in the Hogtown metro area. The 
reason for that is that we don't want no stinking jobs or new businesses unless 
they are directly related to University of Florida biotech spinoffs. As soon as 
they become successful they move to Austin taking the redundant grad students 
with them. We make it a point to screw every developer who sticks his head out 
of a hole. We often lose, but we still cost the developers millions every time 
they try. We don't want no stinking roads either. The bad news is the dawning 
of the age of biomass. It seems we have way too many trees, so the plan is to 
burn them in place of coal. After they cut down all the trees maybe I'll move 
to Detroit. I hear there are wide open spaces out there where a man can breathe 
free.

Sleaze

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Had he been successful, it wasn't the picking up that would have thrown out his 
back. :) At the time (1940's), my mother looked very much like Susan Hayward, 
except better. It just goes to show that looks are not always inherited.

Fritz

________________________________
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 4:59 PM
To: Fritz Holt; '[email protected]'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] where a man can breathe free

Bedoya tried to pick up your mom, sounds like a good way to throw out your back.

G

From: Fritz Holt [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 4:17 PM
To: '[email protected]'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] where a man can breathe free

As stated a couple of years ago when it started a surprising string, I love the 
now famous words spoken by the Mexican bandit in Bogart's movie, "The Treasure 
of Sierra Madre", played by Alfonso Bedoya (who once tried to pick up my mother 
in Mexico City)."Badges?, We don't need no stinking badges". He probably did 
the coolest portrayal of a Mexican bandit ever due to his manner of speaking 
and wry grin. Don't miss it when it plays.

Fritz

________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 3:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] where a man can breathe free


In a message dated 8/5/2011 4:12:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[email protected] writes:
If all the people fretting over the numerous environmental and social problems 
resulting from overpopulation were to focus instead on the primary underlying 
cause, we might reverse this trend and see real progress towards long range 
solutions and improving quality of life for future generations

Amen! Here in Hogtown the living is still easy, the moss hangs from the live 
oaks and all is well until the Students return. Gainesville is the Austin of 
Florida, but the big difference is that there are damned near two million 
Texacans in Austin but only about 250,000 gators in the Hogtown metro area. The 
reason for that is that we don't want no stinking jobs or new businesses unless 
they are directly related to University of Florida biotech spinoffs. As soon as 
they become successful they move to Austin taking the redundant grad students 
with them. We make it a point to screw every developer who sticks his head out 
of a hole. We often lose, but we still cost the developers millions every time 
they try. We don't want no stinking roads either. The bad news is the dawning 
of the age of biomass. It seems we have way too many trees, so the plan is to 
burn them in place of coal. After they cut down all the trees maybe I'll move 
to Detroit. I hear there are wide open spaces out there where a man can breathe 
free.

Sleaze

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Popular? By that standard, so is most of the population of the U.S., not to mention the billions of people in even more overpopulated regions of the earth.

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Creaser
Sent: Aug 5, 2011 9:59 AM
To: Rod Goke , "[email protected]"
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Austinites, here come the brown outs -- not necessarily OT



From: Rod Goke [mailto:[email protected]]



Move where? Overpopulation is a major underlying cause of almost all of the environmental problems that consume so much of our attention and is also a significant factor in many current social problems, but it's hardly a local phenomenon. The world population continues to grow, the population of our country continues to grow, every state in which I have lived has had increasing population, and every city in which I have lived has experienced population growth along with its resulting problems.


Sounds like you’re very popular Rod!

Cheers,
Stefan


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

I think this subject has gotten so far off topic that I'll try to bring in back to caving

 

So the Pope was in the U.S. some months ago which created a great philosophical dilemma.  Should he have been arrested and charged with Crimes against Humanity for the failure to promote the use of condoms and modern family planning practices which has and will condemned millions of people to an early death in Africa from AIDS, famine, and war or should he have been given a medal because millions of people in Africa need to die.

Either way, it will result in fewer African cavers.

 


 
-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Goke
Sent: Aug 5, 2011 6:14 PM
To: Stefan Creaser , "[email protected]"
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Austinites, here come the brown outs -- not necessarily OT


Popular? By that standard, so is most of the population of the U.S., not to mention the billions of people in even more overpopulated regions of the earth.

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Creaser
Sent: Aug 5, 2011 9:59 AM
To: Rod Goke , "[email protected]"
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Austinites, here come the brown outs -- not necessarily OT



From: Rod Goke [mailto:[email protected]]



Move where? Overpopulation is a major underlying cause of almost all of the environmental problems that consume so much of our attention and is also a significant factor in many current social problems, but it's hardly a local phenomenon. The world population continues to grow, the population of our country continues to grow, every state in which I have lived has had increasing population, and every city in which I have lived has experienced population growth along with its resulting problems.


Sounds like you’re very popular Rod!

Cheers,
Stefan


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Regarding Gainesville Florida, Sleaze wrote,

   "We don't want no stinking roads either."

Austin tried that for about 2 or 3 decades, during which the attitude of local "environmentalists" towards roadway construction/expansion was:

   Don't build it, and hope they won't come.

They opposed road building on the theory that more roads would encourage more people to move here. The problem was that people came here anyway, resulting in severe traffic congestion problems, as bad or worst than those often found in much larger cities.

Unfortunately, this kind of failure to provide workable long range solutions often results when people practice superficial environmentalism, addressing only the local effects and symptoms of population growth while shying away from any discussion of the underlying causes of these problems. It's not hard to see why people find this approach tempting. It's relatively easy for activists groups to drum up support and claim political victories by promoting petty "feel good" measures with no powerful opposition and little, if any, beneficial effect. It takes far more courage and perseverance to address the fundamental underlying population issues, since almost any measure that would really help to alleviate overpopulation is likely to encounter strong opposition from one or more influential groups. Different interest groups tend to object to different measures on various grounds, involving political, religious, ideological, and/or business interests, but almost any suggested solution is liable to get you attacked and demonized by someone. Consequently, most groups with environmental interest prefer to focus on the symptoms and ignore the cause, as if population growth were an inevitable force of nature, beyond the control of human beings. Never mind the obvious fact that population growth is entirely due to human action. How many times have we heard people quote population growth projections as inevitable facts about our future and then proceed to talk about how they think we should deal with the consequences of that growth? Why does no one seriously discuss the possibility of limiting population growth to prevent undesirable consequences?

If any of you are wondering what this has to do with caves or are tempted to think of it as "off topic" then think again about the various cave related environmental and access issues that clearly are "on topic" for Texascavers. A large portion of these issues, probably most of them, are directly related to human population. For example, do you care about the effects of development near caves, including both environmental impacts and the effects of development on cave access? What do you think drives the demand for that development? Do you care about the effects on caves of quarrying, mining, or oil and gas production? What do you think drives the demand for these resources? Do you care about the quality and quantity of ground water, including that found in caves? What do you think influences the amount of pollution entering the aquifer and the amount of water that is pumped from it? Do you care about the effects of human visitation on caves and about the access restrictions that sometimes are imposed to limit those effects? What do you think affects the number of people seeking access? All of these, and undoubtedly more, cave related issues are directly affected by human population density. If these cave related effects of population growth are considered "on topic", how can we possibly dismiss the underlying cause as "off topic", unless, of course, it's just a cowardly attempt to avoid controversy about a relevant, but potentially contentious, issue?

Rod


P.S.  By the way, Sleaze, I was one of those graduate students who moved from Gainesville to Austin in 1973 for my first full time job in my profession. I would not say that "Gainesville is the Austin of Florida", because, although both are university towns, Austin is much more. Even at that time, Austin was (and still is) the state capitol, a center for high tech industry, and a regional music center, attracting musicians from many surrounding states in addition to Texas. The population of Austin at that time was approximately a quarter million (much smaller than it is now), but the University of Texas was so large (about 50,000 students) that it still gave Austin a university town atmosphere. At that time, I was impressed with the exceptional variety of influences and activities available in Austin for a city that small. I moved away from Austin in early '74 and returned in '84, finding that it had grown surprisingly larger but still was not a bad place to live. Now Austin still has advantages over many other cities its size, but in my opinion, it has grown far beyond its optimal size, and quality of life in the entire central Texas region continues to deteriorate from excessive population growth. I'm sure there are business interests who, like the purveyors of pyramid schemes, equate exponential growth with prosperity. For ordinary citizens, however, it means worse congestion, greater pollution, higher taxes, less freedom, and greater competition for limited natural resources.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
Sent: Aug 5, 2011 3:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] where a man can breathe free



In a message dated 8/5/2011 4:12:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

If all the people fretting over the numerous environmental and social
problems resulting from overpopulation were to focus instead on the primary
underlying cause, we might reverse this trend and see real progress towards
long range solutions and improving quality of life for future generations

Amen! Here in Hogtown the living is still easy, the moss hangs from the
live oaks and all is well until the Students return. Gainesville is the Austin
of Florida, but the big difference is that there are damned near two
million Texacans in Austin but only about 250,000 gators in the Hogtown metro
area. The reason for that is that we don't want no stinking jobs or new
businesses unless they are directly related to University of Florida biotech
spinoffs. As soon as they become successful they move to Austin taking the
redundant grad students with them. We make it a point to screw every developer
who sticks his head out of a hole. We often lose, but we still cost the
developers millions every time they try. We don't want no stinking roads
either. The bad news is the dawning of the age of biomass. It seems we have way
too many trees, so the plan is to burn them in place of coal. After they
cut down all the trees maybe I'll move to Detroit. I hear there are wide
open spaces out there where a man can breathe free.

Sleaze

--- End Message ---

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