texascavers Digest 29 Aug 2011 20:40:44 -0000 Issue 1374
Topics (messages 18399 through 18409):
Subterranean Amazon River
18399 by: Lee H. Skinner
18400 by: Geary Schindel
18403 by: Robert B
18404 by: Nico Escamilla
Seeking NSS Headquarters Commission Chairman
18401 by: R D Milhollin
Re: NSS committe chairman
18402 by: David
Re: Thanks everyone:
18405 by: Butch Fralia
18408 by: Herman Miller
18409 by: Geary Schindel
Gunnel's Cave
18406 by: David
UT Grotto Meeting August 31, 2011
18407 by: Gary Franklin
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--- Begin Message ---
from BBC News:
A subterranean river said to be flowing beneath the Amazon region of
Brazil is not a river in the conventional sense, even if its existence
is confirmed.
The "river" has been widely reported, after a study on it was presented
to a Brazilian science meeting last week.
But the researchers involved told BBC News that water was moving through
porous rock at speeds measured in cm, or inches, per year - not flowing.
See:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14693637
Lee Skinner
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Thanks for clarifying, this is a very common misperception about groundwater.
Interesting that most lay people think that water occurs in flowing rivers or
lakes. Most hydrologist perceive groundwater in porous rock (such as the area
between sand grains) with velocities measured in cm or inches per year. Then
there is karst which drives many traditionally trained hydrologists nuts as
they try and apply the porous rock model to groundwater flow in conduits which
may better fit (but not perfectly), the common public perception. They can't
rationalize from their experience and education that groundwater velocities may
average more than a mile per day in some karst aquifers.
Most karst hydrologists have been dealing with educating the public (as well as
professionals) on the differences. Interesting, I remember Jim Quinlan, former
park geologist saying, "with some exceptions, cavers know more about the
movement of groundwater in karst than your classically trained hydrogeologist."
There is nothing greater than taking a classically trained hydrologist into
Honey Creek Cave and letting them swim through an aquifer. Talk about an
epiphany (and some near nervous breakdowns). LOL
Geary
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee H. Skinner [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 12:40 PM
To: texascavers list
Subject: [Texascavers] Subterranean Amazon River
from BBC News:
A subterranean river said to be flowing beneath the Amazon region of
Brazil is not a river in the conventional sense, even if its existence
is confirmed.
The "river" has been widely reported, after a study on it was presented
to a Brazilian science meeting last week.
But the researchers involved told BBC News that water was moving through
porous rock at speeds measured in cm, or inches, per year - not flowing.
See:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14693637
Lee Skinner
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For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
interpretation: Hydrologists are nuts, they can't rationalize, they have
frequent nervous breakdowns.
Thems my kinda folks
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Geary Schindel <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Lee,
>
> Thanks for clarifying, this is a very common misperception about
> groundwater. Interesting that most lay people think that water occurs in
> flowing rivers or lakes. Most hydrologist perceive groundwater in porous
> rock (such as the area between sand grains) with velocities measured in cm
> or inches per year. Then there is karst which drives many traditionally
> trained hydrologists nuts as they try and apply the porous rock model to
> groundwater flow in conduits which may better fit (but not perfectly), the
> common public perception. They can't rationalize from their experience and
> education that groundwater velocities may average more than a mile per day
> in some karst aquifers.
>
> Most karst hydrologists have been dealing with educating the public (as
> well as professionals) on the differences. Interesting, I remember Jim
> Quinlan, former park geologist saying, "with some exceptions, cavers know
> more about the movement of groundwater in karst than your classically
> trained hydrogeologist." There is nothing greater than taking a
> classically trained hydrologist into Honey Creek Cave and letting them swim
> through an aquifer. Talk about an epiphany (and some near nervous
> breakdowns). LOL
>
> Geary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee H. Skinner [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 12:40 PM
> To: texascavers list
> Subject: [Texascavers] Subterranean Amazon River
>
> from BBC News:
>
> A subterranean river said to be flowing beneath the Amazon region of
> Brazil is not a river in the conventional sense, even if its existence
> is confirmed.
>
> The "river" has been widely reported, after a study on it was presented
> to a Brazilian science meeting last week.
>
> But the researchers involved told BBC News that water was moving through
> porous rock at speeds measured in cm, or inches, per year - not flowing.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14693637
>
> Lee Skinner
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bet this river connects to Palmito which connects to Carlsbad and finishes
in the Great Lakes LOL
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 10:33 PM, Robert B <[email protected]> wrote:
> interpretation: Hydrologists are nuts, they can't rationalize, they have
> frequent nervous breakdowns.
> Thems my kinda folks
>
> On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Geary Schindel <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Lee,
>>
>> Thanks for clarifying, this is a very common misperception about
>> groundwater. Interesting that most lay people think that water occurs in
>> flowing rivers or lakes. Most hydrologist perceive groundwater in porous
>> rock (such as the area between sand grains) with velocities measured in cm
>> or inches per year. Then there is karst which drives many traditionally
>> trained hydrologists nuts as they try and apply the porous rock model to
>> groundwater flow in conduits which may better fit (but not perfectly), the
>> common public perception. They can't rationalize from their experience and
>> education that groundwater velocities may average more than a mile per day
>> in some karst aquifers.
>>
>> Most karst hydrologists have been dealing with educating the public (as
>> well as professionals) on the differences. Interesting, I remember Jim
>> Quinlan, former park geologist saying, "with some exceptions, cavers know
>> more about the movement of groundwater in karst than your classically
>> trained hydrogeologist." There is nothing greater than taking a
>> classically trained hydrologist into Honey Creek Cave and letting them swim
>> through an aquifer. Talk about an epiphany (and some near nervous
>> breakdowns). LOL
>>
>> Geary
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lee H. Skinner [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 12:40 PM
>> To: texascavers list
>> Subject: [Texascavers] Subterranean Amazon River
>>
>> from BBC News:
>>
>> A subterranean river said to be flowing beneath the Amazon region of
>> Brazil is not a river in the conventional sense, even if its existence
>> is confirmed.
>>
>> The "river" has been widely reported, after a study on it was presented
>> to a Brazilian science meeting last week.
>>
>> But the researchers involved told BBC News that water was moving through
>> porous rock at speeds measured in cm, or inches, per year - not flowing.
>>
>> See:
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14693637
>>
>> Lee Skinner
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The NSS is soliciting applications for chairman of the Headquarters
Commission. This is a volunteer position that will entail considerable work
over several years.
The five-member HQComm was established by the NSS Board to develop and
manage the process of establishing an enhanced headquarters for the Society.
At its summer meeting, the Board accepted the commission's recommendation to
purchase Cahaba Shrine Temple and property in Huntsville, Alabama. Over the
next several years, the commission will be responsible for developing the
building and property to meet the NSS's requirements.
Commission members have been selected to provide a variety of skills and
experience in such diverse areas as real estate, design, construction,
finance, and fundraising. Collectively, the chairman, the NSS operations
vice-president, and the commissioners are responsible for fulfilling the
objectives of the HQComm.
1) The chairman of the HQComm will lead, manage and coordinate all
activities of the HQComm and its members, in accordance with the goals and
procedures defined in its charter (Appendix AY of the Board Manual
caves.org/nss-business/bog/Append-AY.pdf .) The chairman will be
responsible for all phases of the HQComm project, including plan and design
development, schedule and cost management, construction oversight,
fundraising, and preparing reports for the president and the NSS Board of
Governors.
2) The Commission chairman should have experience as a project manager for
construction projects ranging from $1-5M. Complementary experience as a
general contractor, architect, or engineer, or a related field is highly
desirable. The candidate must have good communication, writing, and computer
skills, as well as experience in working with volunteers. The candidate
must be willing to travel as needed.
3) The chairman is responsible for the quality of communication with
architects and contractors to ensure prompt and accurate performance, and in
negotiations with vendors, government, and public entities to represent the
best interests of the NSS.
Submittal Guidelines
Interested parties should submit their resumes, references, experience, and
other pertinent information by September 30, 2011 to:
Wm Shrewsbury, NSS President
2813 Cave Avenue
Huntsville, AL 35810-4431
727-424-2901
[email protected]
This job description outlines the general nature of work to be performed,
and is not an exhaustive list of all responsibilities, duties, and skills.
(Please circulate widely among the NSS community)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would like to share my 2 cents. You probably should be hitting
the delete button by now.
My perspective comes from,
Being an independent recreational caver, and not a member of a grotto
and having only been
connected to the NSS via the NSS News and attending a few conventions. And not
being an active caver that actually goes underground or participates
in caving projects,
and only skims thru the Journal. And, from living far from karst and
caves, etc. Meaning,
I mainly just socialize with cavers and once in a blue moon go past
the twilight zone,
or just visit commercial caves.
My opinion, being completely out of the loop, is a minority, but
nevertheless, an
opinion of an NSS member.
I would like to see the NSS be a successful profitable organization.
The lofty goal, to protect caves nationwide,
for all the 50 states and territories, etc, seems unrealistic in the
forecasted economy.
Many of the ideas I hear the NSS propose to me sound unreasonable,
like trying to
find someone with expert construction management experience to work
for free, for
several years. Foolish, is the first word to come to mind.
The amount of money and work a handful of dedicated members put into a
convention, seems obsessive,
when a much smaller inexpensive venue would accomplish 80 % of the
objectives of the event.
The idea of holding a meeting for 30 to 40 cavers and holding it at
some ritzy or fancy
establishment in an effort to impress people doesn't do anything to
help caves or
caving. How many of you can remember where the Art Salon took
place in Bellingham?
It was a wonderful amazing event. But I bet there are less than
100 people that
remember it. Or how many of you remember the schooner ride ?
That was a huge
blast. But I bet less than 50 members remember it. What long
term objective was
accomplished ?
I have said this publicly before: if the NSS builds its fancy headquarters in
TAG country, I will most likely never see it, nor will any of the
other 50 something
NSS members in my region.
The headquarters should have been put near a larger metropolitan area
in a central
part of the U.S. and, and within 5 miles of the airport, so that when
people occasionally come to town
on business they have a reason to stop by and see the displays and interact
with other cavers. It should have been a tiny inexpensive building
with low maintenance
and overhead.
Or there needs to be several offices spread-out and not a centralized
headquarters.
I do hope to attend about 10 future conventions in my lifetime, and I
might help with a few future
task, but that is the most I plan to interact with the NSS.
I do look forward to seeing some kind of NSS app on my tablet that
keeps me connected to
my NSS friends and the NSS activities.
I think it was a great idea to put NSS CaveChat on Facebook. Kudos
to the people that did
that.
David Locklear
NSS # 27639
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congratulations on your kidney transplant. My son-in-law had one and it
changed his life completely and positively.
Butch Fralia
From: Walter Feaster [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 11:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Thanks everyone:
Thanks everyone for sending the get well encouragements. To day is the first
free time I have had to get on cavetex. They tell me I am progressing well
and maybe get out of here on Monday.
Thanks again, and happy caving,
Walter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Glad your doing great Walter :) Now we just have to go back to Amazing Maze
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Butch Fralia <[email protected]>wrote:
> Congratulations on your kidney transplant. My son-in-law had one and it
> changed his life completely and positively.****
>
> ** **
>
> Butch Fralia****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Walter Feaster [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 27, 2011 11:31 AM
> *To:* [email protected]
> *Subject:* [Texascavers] Thanks everyone:****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks everyone for sending the get well encouragements. To day is the
> first free time I have had to get on cavetex. They tell me I am progressing
> well and maybe get out of here on Monday. ****
>
> ** **
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks again, and happy caving,****
>
> ** **
>
> Walter****
>
> ** **
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I stopped by early Saturday evening to say hi and Walter looked good and was up
working on his computer (though not feeling real good). Hopefully, he was able
to go home today.
I brought him one of those 64 ounce Big Gulp drinks to test out the new kidney
but the nurses wouldn't let me bring it in. LOL.
I'm glad he is doing well.
Geary
From: Herman Miller [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 11:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Thanks everyone:
Glad your doing great Walter :) Now we just have to go back to Amazing Maze
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Butch Fralia
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Congratulations on your kidney transplant. My son-in-law had one and it
changed his life completely and positively.
Butch Fralia
From: Walter Feaster
[mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>]
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 11:31 AM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [Texascavers] Thanks everyone:
Thanks everyone for sending the get well encouragements. To day is the first
free time I have had to get on cavetex. They tell me I am progressing well and
maybe get out of here on Monday.
Thanks again, and happy caving,
Walter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few of you have heard of this unique cave, but I doubt many of you
have seen it.
There will be a trip this fall to the cave.
I made contact with the owner via Facebook. I hadn't talked to him in over
10 years, but he sounded enthusiastic.
I am not sure if I will be going on the trip. But I will help get
all the people
interested together.
If you are not on Facebook e-mail me privately otherwise go to the Gunnel's Cave
page on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Preserve-Protect-Gunnels-Cave/111719558859888
And handful of cavers know the approximate location of the cave.
For most of you,
the best reference, will be the town of Nacogdoches.
David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy Caver,
You are cordially invited to attend the Underground Texas Grotto meeting.
Underground Texas Grotto meeting on Wednesday August 31, 2011 from 7:45 P.M.
- 9:00 P.M.
University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall (156 West 24th Street,
Austin TX 78712) http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html
Charlie Savvas will be presenting – 2011 Guatemala Caving Reconnaissance
Charlie spent time recently down in Guatemala checking out leads for an
upcoming expedition. Come check out some of his spectacular photography
from his recent trip down south.
Aubri Jenson will also be presenting - All Things Dark and Dangerous
As cavers, we put ourselves at unique risk for exposure to some unusual
health hazards of cave-related threats. While aimed at those new to caving
or to Texas, this should be a good review for anyone who routinely goes
underground.
Come spend some time with Austin Texas Cavers and visit with friends of the
extended caver community.
For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see
www.utgrotto.org
Officer contact, trip reports, event calendar, and new caver training links
to beginner trips or vertical rope training are available.
Before the meeting, take advantage of Sao Paulo www.saopaulos.net for
happy hour specials. This area is the best place to park and meet folks
walking over to the meeting. Then after the official meeting, we continue
with the decades long tradition to reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall
tales of caving at Posse East. www.posse-east.com
The UT Grotto needs you, the caver with photos and a story to share about
your adventures, scientific research, or something else really cool. Contact
me.
Sincerely,
Gary Franklin
UT Grotto Vice Chair & Program Organizer
512-585-6057
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
