texascavers Digest 31 Aug 2011 18:40:41 -0000 Issue 1375
Topics (messages 18410 through 18423):
a very common misperception about groundwater
18410 by: BMorgan994.aol.com
18411 by: Brian Riordan
18416 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
Re: Thanks everyone:
18412 by: Tom Florer
Drought could push Barton Springs salamanders to brink of extinction :
18413 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
State budget cuts impact state parks - including Kickapoo Cavern :
18414 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
Bracken Bat Cave Opens To Public :
18415 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
New "caver vehicle" bigger than a Hummer.
18417 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
18418 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
some new videos
18419 by: David
Great! now how to we get there?
18420 by: wesley s
Man discovery news is just cranking out the caving stories today.
18421 by: wesley s
18422 by: Stefan Creaser
18423 by: Ed Goff
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
Here in Florida everyone believes that every single sinkhole pond is a
"spring fed lake". If you don't believe me just ask a realtor! If you mention
the fact that the water is just sitting there rather than flowing the happy
homeowner (whose lot size grows ever larger as the lake recedes) will
explain that there must be a hole in the bottom of the lake otherwise how
does
the water squirt up to fill the lake basin? These are the same folks who
believe that if you dig a hole in the backyard water will rush up to fill it,
this despite the fact that their well is 200 feet deep. (This is the same
as the creationist argument for design. If the bucket gets filled with
water there has to be a faucet, right?)
None of these folks believe that their ever receding lakes are in any way
affected by anthropogenic climate change, drainage ditches, golf course
irrigation, or that the green slime coming out of what used to be a spring has
anything to do with their septic tank. It is all magic. I just heard on NPR
that a researcher recently determined that no one would drink perfectly
sterile reclaimed water because it had once touched a turd, but they are
happy to drink the polluted aquifer because it is "natural". Therefore it is
best to dispose of perfectly clean reclaimed water by dumping it into the
river then pump it back out again after it has been "purified" by running past
the town just upstream. And to think that they came to all these
conclusions without me even having to put LSD in the public water supply!
But not everybody is that dumb. I once had an in depth conversation with a
very intelligent Mayan Indian in Belize who after a shot of rum and a pull
on a spliff got downright philosophical. He explained that everybody knew
that water simply came out of the ground, presumably due to the intercession
of Oztotl, but he had a different idea. He said, "Maybe it has something
to do with rain?"
Sleaze
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sleaze,
*Knee jerk response:* If you weren't so enamored in your own knowledge, I
think you would learn more.
*30 second later response:* I think everyone is tired of your unnecessary
and constant religious jabs in your e-mails. Apart from being irrelevant,
unreasoned, and over-simplified to the point of absurdity, it's annoying.
Some may choose to ignore it to "keep the peace" but I don't welcome this
antagonism in my personal e-mail.
As such, please find another venue to vent your bitterness. If you can't
abide by the rules of CaveTex, as you have proven for the nth time, and
those tasked at enforcing those rules don't boot you, then I'll leave. If
I'm forced with the later option, CaveTex will maintain it's status quo, and
yet another young caver will be convinced this isn't the group for them. I
think the average age would jump ~10 years. I trust that this is not in the
interest of the group and legitimately hope you can finally overcome this
personal challenge for its sake.
Cheers,
-B
PS. Don't write me personal and condescending e-mails that you're trying to
enlighten me or anyone else- you're not interested in exchanging
philosophical ideas, logic or weighing concepts on their own merit. The
self-righteous, blind parroting of other peoples ideas is in abundance,
unfortunately.
On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 4:26 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> **
> Here in Florida everyone believes that every single sinkhole pond is a
> "spring fed lake". If you don't believe me just ask a realtor! If you
> mention the fact that the water is just sitting there rather than flowing
> the happy homeowner (whose lot size grows ever larger as the lake recedes)
> will explain that there must be a hole in the bottom of the lake otherwise
> how does the water squirt up to fill the lake basin? These are the same
> folks who believe that if you dig a hole in the backyard water will rush up
> to fill it, this despite the fact that their well is 200 feet deep. (This is
> the same as the creationist argument for design. If the bucket gets filled
> with water there has to be a faucet, right?)
>
> None of these folks believe that their ever receding lakes are in any way
> affected by anthropogenic climate change, drainage ditches, golf course
> irrigation, or that the green slime coming out of what used to be a spring
> has anything to do with their septic tank. It is all magic. I just heard on
> NPR that a researcher recently determined that no one would drink perfectly
> sterile reclaimed water because it had once touched a turd, but they are
> happy to drink the polluted aquifer because it is "natural". Therefore it is
> best to dispose of perfectly clean reclaimed water by dumping it into the
> river then pump it back out again after it has been "purified" by running
> past the town just upstream. And to think that they came to all these
> conclusions without me even having to put LSD in the public water supply!
>
> But not everybody is that dumb. I once had an in depth conversation with a
> very intelligent Mayan Indian in Belize who after a shot of rum and a pull
> on a spliff got downright philosophical. He explained that everybody knew
> that water simply came out of the ground, presumably due to the intercession
> of Oztotl, but he had a different idea. He said, "Maybe it has something to
> do with rain?"
>
> Sleaze
>
--
Brian Riordan
979-218-8009 (Mobile)
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sleaze is hardly bitter.
Aug 29, 2011 07:12:53 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Sleaze,
Knee jerk response: If you weren't so enamored in your own knowledge, I think you would learn more.
30 second later response: I think everyone is tired of your unnecessary and constant religious jabs in your e-mails. Apart from being irrelevant, unreasoned, and over-simplified to the point of absurdity, it's annoying. Some may choose to ignore it to "keep the peace" but I don't welcome this antagonism in my personal e-mail.
As such, please find another venue to vent your bitterness. If you can't abide by the rules of CaveTex, as you have proven for the nth time, and those tasked at enforcing those rules don't boot you, then I'll leave. If I'm forced with the later option, CaveTex will maintain it's status quo, and yet another young caver will be convinced this isn't the group for them. I think the average age would jump ~10 years. I trust that this is not in the interest of the group and legitimately hope you can finally overcome this personal challenge for its sake.
Cheers,
-B
PS. Don't write me personal and condescending e-mails that you're trying to enlighten me or anyone else- you're not interested in exchanging philosophical ideas, logic or weighing concepts on their own merit. The self-righteous, blind parroting of other peoples ideas is in abundance, unfortunately.
On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 4:26 PM,
<[email protected]> wrote:
Here in Florida everyone believes that every single sinkhole pond is a "spring fed lake". If you don't believe me just ask a realtor! If you mention the fact that the water is just sitting there rather than flowing the happy homeowner (whose lot size grows ever larger as the lake recedes) will explain that there must be a hole in the bottom of the lake otherwise how does the water squirt up to fill the lake basin? These are the same folks who believe that if you dig a hole in the backyard water will rush up to fill it, this despite the fact that their well is 200 feet deep. (This is the same as the creationist argument for design. If the bucket gets filled with water there has to be a faucet, right?)
None of these folks believe that their ever receding lakes are in any way affected by anthropogenic climate change, drainage ditches, golf course irrigation, or that the green slime coming out of what used to be a spring has anything to do with their septic tank. It is all magic. I just heard on NPR that a researcher recently determined that no one would drink perfectly sterile reclaimed water because it had once touched a turd, but they are happy to drink the polluted aquifer because it is "natural". Therefore it is best to dispose of perfectly clean reclaimed water by dumping it into the river then pump it back out again after it has been "purified" by running past the town just upstream. And to think that they came to all these conclusions without me even having to put LSD in the public water supply!
But not everybody is that dumb. I once had an in depth conversation with a very intelligent Mayan Indian in Belize who after a shot of rum and a pull on a spliff got downright philosophical. He explained that everybody knew that water simply came out of the ground, presumably due to the intercession of Oztotl, but he had a different idea. He said, "Maybe it has something to do with rain?"
Sleaze
--
Brian Riordan
979-218-8009 (Mobile)
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Walter is still in the hospital, but has high hopes that he will be discharged
Tuesday morning. I visited with him for a short while this evening, and he is
looking and sounding good.
Walter was one of the first people I met when I started caving many years
ago...I learned a lot from him and it is good to see him getting his health
back.
-Tom
________________________________
From: Geary Schindel <[email protected]>
To: 'Herman Miller' <[email protected]>; "[email protected]"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 3:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Thanks everyone:
I stopped by early Saturday evening to say hi and Walter looked good and was up
working on his computer (though not feeling real good). Hopefully, he was able
to go home today.
I brought him one of those 64 ounce Big Gulp drinks to test out the new kidney
but the nurses wouldn’t let me bring it in. LOL.
I’m glad he is doing well.
Geary
From:Herman Miller [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 11:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Thanks everyone:
Glad your doing great Walter :) Now we just have to go back to Amazing Maze
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Butch Fralia <[email protected]>
wrote:
Congratulations on your kidney transplant. My son-in-law had one and it
changed his life completely and positively.
Butch Fralia
From:Walter Feaster [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 11:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Thanks everyone:
Thanks everyone for sending the get well encouragements. To day is the first
free time I have had to get on cavetex. They tell me I am progressing well and
maybe get out of here on Monday.
Thanks again, and happy caving,
Walter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Drought could push salamanders to brink of extinction
By _Marty Toohey_
(http://www.statesman.com/news/local/drought-could-push-salamanders-to-brink-of-extinction-1796490.html?service=popup&authorContact=1
796490&authorContactField=0)
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Published: 9:26 p.m. Friday, Aug. 26, 2011
The nearly yearlong drought has been tough on the endangered Barton Springs
salamander, so much so that city officials say survival prospects have
notably diminished for the unofficial mascot of Austin environmentalism.
Salamander numbers appear to have dwindled significantly since the drought
started, according to Laurie Dries, the city biologist responsible for
managing the salamander population. The 2008-09 drought greatly reduced the
amphibians' numbers, and they had a weak recovery during the wet period
between that drought and this one.
Of particular concern is a lack of juvenile salamanders, which are
especially sensitive to dry conditions.
Dries' assessment comes with the standard range of scientific caveats. A
prolonged wet period might swell their numbers. They might be more resilient
than thought. Precise counts are impossible because some salamanders might
be hiding in hard-to-reach caves.
But the best evidence indicates trouble for the salamander, Dries said. Her
analysis is backed by recent lab testing on how drought conditions affect
similar salamanders.
"I'm concerned that we didn't see their numbers bounce back from the '08-09
drought, which was tough on the salamanders, and we're in an even worse
drought now," she said.
The Barton Springs salamander was added to the federal endangered species
list in 1997, after Austin environmentalists had pushed for its inclusion
for years. The much-discussed, rarely seen creature is equally celebrated and
scorned, as it has become an important, if not always successful, tool for
combating development over the recharge zone of the Barton Springs portion
of the Edwards Aquifer. It's unclear how the salamander's possible demise
could effect the debate about development rules over the aquifer.
The rainwater that seeps through fissures, caves and other porous features
in the recharge zone filters into the Barton Springs portion of the
aquifer. The aquifer replenishes Barton Springs Pool and is a source of
drinking
water for rural areas in Travis and Hays counties.
Adult salamanders are about 21/2 inches long and live in the water. They
have weak eyes and are gray, purple or brown with salt-and-pepper mottling on
their backs. They live only in the outflows of the four springs that
collectively make up Barton Springs, according to the Texas Parks and Wildlife
Department.
The city typically uses the salamander population in Eliza Springs as the
main barometer of overall salamander health. Eliza, which is behind the
pool's concession stand, is the most salamander-friendly habitat and the
easiest place for the city to track long-term salamander trends.
Heading into the previous drought, scientists counted about 600 salamanders
living in Eliza Springs. During the 2008-09 drought, the number dropped to
35 adults and no juveniles, although some might have been living in the
caves. The number climbed to a peak of 300 salamanders after the rains
started falling.
There are now about 140 living in Eliza Springs, nine of them juveniles,
according to city monitoring data.
It's impossible for the city to get a precise salamander count because it
is difficult to find them, but lab tests support what the city is observing.
Recently, researchers at the University of Texas and Baylor University
performed tests on San Marcos salamanders, which are closely related to the
Barton Springs salamander but are not endangered. The tests measured how much
oxygen they need in the water around them; in droughts, when less water is
flowing, the oxygen content drops.
At 5 to 6 milligrams of oxygen per liter of water, the typical amount in
Eliza Springs, the salamanders were fine.
At 4.4 milligrams, growth rates for the salamanders dipped in the lab
tests. At 3.6 milligrams of oxygen, about 25 percent of adults died. At 3.4
milligrams, half the salamanders died in the lab. At 1.9 milligrams, they all
died.
Eliza Springs is now at 3.6 milligrams.
Kirk Holland, the general manager of the Barton Springs/Edwards Aquifer
Conservation District, said the oxygen levels are likely to keep dropping. He
said the flow of water into the springs will probably continue weakening
for the foreseeable future, possibly to its lowest level ever.
"We're assuming things will get a lot worse before they start to get
better," he said.
Holland said there is no evidence of how far oxygen levels would ultimately
drop, but he added, "The city, rightly so, is making some worst-case
assumptions."
_http://www.statesman.com/news/local/drought-could-push-salamanders-to-brink
-of-extinction-1796490.html_
(http://www.statesman.com/news/local/drought-could-push-salamanders-to-brink-of-extinction-1796490.html)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Legislative Fallout: Days, Services Cut at State Parks
August 26, 2011 6:13 PM
_Kate Galbraith_ (mailto:)
Texas Tribune
Throughout the month of August, The Texas Tribune is featuring 31 days of
articles addressing the ways Texans' lives will change come Sept. 1, the
date most bills passed by the Legislature — including the dramatically
reduced budget — take effect.
Day 26: To cope with big budget cuts, some Texas state parks reduce
services, close earlier or are open fewer days.
AUSTIN -- Visitors to _Kickapoo Cavern State Park_
(http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/findadest/parks/kickapoo_cavern/) ,
southwest of San Antonio,
can visit any day they please to stroll the 1,400-foot length of the cavern,
observe the formations and watch bats. Soon, however, the park will pare
back its schedule to open only five days a week.
Cutbacks in days, hours and services are coming to parks across the state,
after the Legislature slashed the _Texas Parks & Wildlife_
(http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/) 's budget by 21.5 percent. _Wyler Aerial
Tramway_
(http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/findadest/parks/wyler_aerial_tram/) in El
Paso,
which is part of the park system, will now operate three days per week
(plus holidays), instead of five, after losing the equivalent of a handful of
full-time staff.
"Twenty-three of the 94 state parks in Texas will experience some
reduction in staff, operations or both," said Tom Harvey, a spokesman for the
parks
agency, though he noted that no parks are expected to close,_ as had been
originally feared_
(http://www.texastribune.org/texas-environmental-news/environmental-problems-and-policies/texas-parks--wildlife-agency-faces-big-cuts/
) . One park system holding, the_ Sebastopol House State Historic Site_
(http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/findadest/parks/sebastopol/) in
Guadalupe County, is being transferred to local authorities and will now be
run by
the city of Seguin.
Some parks, said Harvey, will cut back their hours during "non-peak"
months, when fewer people tend to visit. And some parks will be accessible by
"self-pay" stations during certain hours that would previously have been
staffed. The cutbacks are already in effect at some parks; others will see
them
phased in later.
"It's very sad, when people have less access to the outdoors and less
access to state parks, but I think TPWD has done a remarkable job of
allocating
the resources they were given," said Janice Bezanson, executive director
of the _Texas Conservation Alliance_ (http://www.tcatexas.org/) . Texas
parks, she said, have historically been badly underfunded, and the state is
"always near the bottom of the list" relative to other states in terms of
percentage of acreage devoted to public lands.
Other cuts at Texas Parks & Wildlife will mean fewer fish get produced at
hatcheries, and thus there will be less to stock in lakes, and less money
to combat invasive species like the giant salvinia, a water weed. Hunter
education should see relatively little impact, Harvey said.
All told, the agency — which employs about 3,100 people — has laid off
111 employees. However, a bill in the legislature will make it possible for
Texans renewing their annual vehicle registration to donate $5 (or more) to
the parks system. The measure is forecasted to bring in $3.2 million for
the biennium — far less than the $150 million biennium reduction imposed by
the Legislature.
_http://www.themonitor.com/news/featuring-54197-bills-texas.html_
(http://www.themonitor.com/news/featuring-54197-bills-texas.html)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bracken Bat Cave Opens To Public
Event Held In Honor Of International Bat Night
_Simon Gutierrez_ (mailto:[email protected]) , KSAT 12 News Reporter
POSTED: Saturday, August 27, 2011
(http://www.ksat.com/image/29006418/detail.html)
SAN ANTONIO -- Nature lovers were treated to a rare sight at the Bracken
Bat Cave on Saturday night when 20-million bats took to the night sky.
The event was the first time the cave was open to the public.
Bat Conservation International, the group that maintains the cave,
typically does not allow the public to see the mass exodus, primarily to
protect
the Mexican free-tail bat colony, which is the largest in the world.
"They were awestruck. Speechless," Fran Hutchins, who monitors the cave
for group, said of the customers' reaction to the bats. "With the kids, the
word awesome was used quite a few times, so that's a great thing for 9 and 10
year olds these days."
BCI, in conjunction with Natural Bridge Caverns, will offer 10 more public
viewings of the bat colony over the next several weeks.
Price of admission is about $50, which includes a tour of the caverns and
dinner.
_http://www.ksat.com/news/29002405/detail.html_
(http://www.ksat.com/news/29002405/detail.html)
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--- Begin Message ---
Last week's TopGear has a £ 300,000 South African "caver vehicle" weighs 10 tons and it probably based on the Hippo, a vehicle used by the SA Army.
It's called the Marauder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RiIjwb-iEQ&list=PL15571F66F3947490&index=3&feature=plpp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well - my roads are too narrow and the trees and rocks are too close. I have
outgrown using that much instant cave when I can still walk faster than I can
drive.
I am working on my bumper and brush guard, however, even as we speak. AstroVans
were never designed to accommodate such, but after years without Tortuga, I
feel inspired. At Brackettville, I found that Kunath has put me to shame
once again.
DirtDoc
----- Original Message -----
It's called the Marauder.
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--- Begin Message ---
Here are some new videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKNEJ-x3Dq8
In the video below, the eco-tour company has rigged a subterreanen zip-line
into the twilight zone. Skip to 1:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWnRYqyB2x0&feature=related
Note the young eco-tourist get to rappel into a free-hanging 60 foot pit,
and get to swim through a fun cave.
Skip to 1:26 on the one below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kebnw3Bx-F8&feature=related
I think somebody may have already mentioned the one below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Euarj9BoQ
Imagine a U.S. president doing something like that ?
David Locklear
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--- Begin Message ---
"These features are often eyed as potential candidates for future manned
missions to Mars and the moon as they provide access to naturally-occurring
sub-surface caves"
http://news.discovery.com/space/big-pic-mars-crater-skylight-110830.html
Wes~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://news.discovery.com/adventure/exploring-antarcticas-ice-caves-110830.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Some of the caves are accessible by foot. Others require ropes and repelling
equipment."
What was she trying to repel, what kind of things lurk in those caves?!!
--Stefan
From: wesley s [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Man discovery news is just cranking out the caving
stories today.
http://news.discovery.com/adventure/exploring-antarcticas-ice-caves-110830.html
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
medium. Thank you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rapellent things, no doubt.
Ed
On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Stefan Creaser <[email protected]>wrote:
> “Some of the caves are accessible by foot. Others require ropes and
> repelling equipment.”****
>
> ** **
>
> What was she trying to repel, what kind of things lurk in those caves?!!**
> **
>
> ** **
>
> --Stefan****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* wesley s [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:27 AM
> *To:* [email protected]
> *Subject:* [Texascavers] Man discovery news is just cranking out the
> caving stories today.****
>
> ** **
>
>
> http://news.discovery.com/adventure/exploring-antarcticas-ice-caves-110830.html
> ****
>
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>
--- End Message ---
