texascavers Digest 14 Feb 2012 03:50:04 -0000 Issue 1497
Topics (messages 19546 through 19558):
Re: Honey Creek sand observation
19546 by: Andy Gluesenkamp
19547 by: Diana Tomchick
19548 by: George Veni
19550 by: Pete Lindsley
19551 by: hine0012.umn.edu
19552 by: George Veni
19554 by: George Veni
19556 by: Mark Minton
19558 by: Aimee Beveridge
Schetromph cave
19549 by: BMorgan994.aol.com
19555 by: Preston Forsythe
19557 by: Andy Edwards
Vampires coming to Texas?
19553 by: Heather Tucek
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the excellent explanation, George.
Andy
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
[email protected]
--- On Mon, 2/13/12, George Veni <[email protected]> wrote:
From: George Veni <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation
To: "'texas cavers'" <[email protected]>
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 1:20 PM
Calcite sand in Honey Creek is usually deposited due to turbulence related to
both normal and flooding conditions. Kurt described deposition common to
normal conditions:· Dripping water sinks floating calcite rafts;·
Rafts accumulate on the upstream side of dams, where as more accumulate they
become more sensitive to disturbances in flow and thus sink there;·
Rafts accumulate below dams where they have washed over the dams and get sunk
on the downstream side. Andy described deposition common to flooding
conditions:· A “bathtub ring” of calcite coats the walls as water
levels rise and later fall, draping the calcite rafts on the walls;·
Calcite accumulates below areas that would be especially turbulent during high
flows, causing floating rafts to be sluiced along and concentrated in areas
where they sink. The degree to which the sand accumulates or is noticed
at any given time depends mostly on:· How much time has passed since
the last flood, which determines how many rafts will accumulate floating on the
water;· How severe the flood was, and did it just sink the floating
rafts where they can be seen, or wash them away or bury them under silt and
clay where they will not be seen;· The chemistry of the cave’s water
and atmosphere to create favorable conditions for raft development. Kurt is
right that they usually form more quickly in the winter because the cave
atmosphere has less carbon dioxide at that time, allowing more carbon dioxide
to degas from the water, driving the water to supersaturation with respect to
calcite, and promoting calcite raft development. George
*************************** George Veni, Ph.D.Executive DirectorNational Cave
and Karst Research Institute400-1 Cascades AvenueCarlsbad, New Mexico
88220-6215 USAOffice:
575-887-5517Mobile: 210-863-5919Fax: [email protected]
From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:00
To: texas cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation This was different.
First, I noticed small areas of white sand in pools in the spring run. There
were some now-dryish pools that had a coating of "sand" on the bottom (but on
top of the mud), as if they were filled during the "high tide". We also
noticed a 3/4-inch wide band of fine white sand on top of the mud layer on
walls about a foot above the water line (high tide line?) along passage near
WM. Also, areas where the floor dropped off were covered in fresh white sand
(sand over mud). We meant to collect a sample for later "fizz" testing but,
alas, the urge to splurge on Philly cheese steaks and beer was too great for
our group and we plumb forgot.
Andy
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> The degree to which the sand accumulates or is noticed at any given time
> depends mostly on:
> · How much time has passed since the last flood, which determines how
> many rafts will accumulate floating on the water;
> · How severe the flood was, and did it just sink the floating rafts
> where they can be seen, or wash them away or bury them under silt and clay
> where they will not be seen;
> · The chemistry of the cave’s water and atmosphere to create
> favorable conditions for raft development. Kurt is right that they usually
> form more quickly in the winter because the cave atmosphere has less carbon
> dioxide at that time, allowing more carbon dioxide to degas from the water,
> driving the water to supersaturation with respect to calcite, and promoting
> calcite raft development.
Does the cave atmosphere have less carbon dioxide due to lesser amounts of
degradation of biomass in the ground over the cave in the winter (due to the
lower surface air temperatures), or is it due to a reduction in temperature of
the creek water in the cave? Because the solubility of carbon dioxide increases
as the temperature of water decreases.
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Measurements I made of soil and cave air carbon dioxide during my
dissertation research in the Honey Creek area show a strong positive
correlation between spring-summer plant growth and increases in cave air
carbon dioxide. Studies in other areas have shown the same thing.
You are correct that the water temperature has an effect, as do seasonal
changes in water chemistry, both of which I didn't mention for the sake of
brevity. I would expect that a decrease in temperature would result in
dissolution of the rafts rather than the precipitation we see. However,
because the water temperature has usually come close to equilibrating with
the temperature of the surrounding mass of rock and water by the time we see
it in the areas where rafts are deposited, I would also expect any
temperature effects to be minor given the small decrease in temperature. I
have measured significant changes in carbon dioxide and know that is
certainly a major factor.
It would be interesting to run a "standard" example of the cave's water
chemistry values through a geochemical model and tweak the temperature and
carbon dioxide levels over a series of iterations to predict how much of a
change in temperature or carbon dioxide would be needed to affect raft
deposition one way or the other.
George
***************************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
[email protected]
www.nckri.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 12:40
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: texas cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation
>
> The degree to which the sand accumulates or is noticed at any given time
depends mostly on:
> . How much time has passed since the last flood, which determines
how many rafts will accumulate floating on the water;
> . How severe the flood was, and did it just sink the floating
rafts where they can be seen, or wash them away or bury them under silt and
clay where they will not be seen;
> . The chemistry of the cave's water and atmosphere to create
favorable conditions for raft development. Kurt is right that they usually
form more quickly in the winter because the cave atmosphere has less carbon
dioxide at that time, allowing more carbon dioxide to degas from the water,
driving the water to supersaturation with respect to calcite, and promoting
calcite raft development.
Does the cave atmosphere have less carbon dioxide due to lesser amounts of
degradation of biomass in the ground over the cave in the winter (due to the
lower surface air temperatures), or is it due to a reduction in temperature
of the creek water in the cave? Because the solubility of carbon dioxide
increases as the temperature of water decreases.
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick
Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of
Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
George, it would also be interesting to relate this to the development
of the rather recent calcite formation in Snowy RIver. SR only forms
calcite in SR during a "flood event" in the really dry NM area, and
that apparently happens only 2-4 times in a 10 year period due mostly
to heavy rains and heavy snow melts.
So we have two "Laboratory Caves" here, one in dry NM, and the other
in a much wetter TX area.
- Pete
On Feb 13, 2012, at 1:17 PM, George Veni wrote:
Measurements I made of soil and cave air carbon dioxide during my
dissertation research in the Honey Creek area show a strong positive
correlation between spring-summer plant growth and increases in cave air
carbon dioxide. Studies in other areas have shown the same thing.
You are correct that the water temperature has an effect, as do seasonal
changes in water chemistry, both of which I didn't mention for the
sake of
brevity. I would expect that a decrease in temperature would result in
dissolution of the rafts rather than the precipitation we see. However,
because the water temperature has usually come close to equilibrating
with
the temperature of the surrounding mass of rock and water by the time
we see
it in the areas where rafts are deposited, I would also expect any
temperature effects to be minor given the small decrease in
temperature. I
have measured significant changes in carbon dioxide and know that is
certainly a major factor.
It would be interesting to run a "standard" example of the cave's water
chemistry values through a geochemical model and tweak the temperature
and
carbon dioxide levels over a series of iterations to predict how much
of a
change in temperature or carbon dioxide would be needed to affect raft
deposition one way or the other.
George
***************************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
[email protected]
www.nckri.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 12:40
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: texas cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation
The degree to which the sand accumulates or is noticed at any given
time
depends mostly on:
. How much time has passed since the last flood, which
determines
how many rafts will accumulate floating on the water;
. How severe the flood was, and did it just sink the floating
rafts where they can be seen, or wash them away or bury them under
silt and
clay where they will not be seen;
. The chemistry of the cave's water and atmosphere to create
favorable conditions for raft development. Kurt is right that they
usually
form more quickly in the winter because the cave atmosphere has less
carbon
dioxide at that time, allowing more carbon dioxide to degas from the
water,
driving the water to supersaturation with respect to calcite, and
promoting
calcite raft development.
Does the cave atmosphere have less carbon dioxide due to lesser
amounts of
degradation of biomass in the ground over the cave in the winter (due
to the
lower surface air temperatures), or is it due to a reduction in
temperature
of the creek water in the cave? Because the solubility of carbon dioxide
increases as the temperature of water decreases.
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R.
Tomchick
Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of
Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like a job for Geochemists' Workbench (or PHREEQC), which I have
access to. I'd be glad to do some runs if data is available. Temperature
effects I bet are minor as mentioned, and partial pressure of CO2 should be
a main driver for depositional events of calcite "snow". These depositional
events happen in lakes, too.
Just for the record, this is Neal Hines (NSS 47827), relatively new to
Texas (Austin), having moved here from Minnesota with my wife who is in
music grad. school at UT. I've met several cavers already and I look
forward to getting underground a bit more.
-Neal
On Feb 13 2012, George Veni wrote:
Measurements I made of soil and cave air carbon dioxide during my
dissertation research in the Honey Creek area show a strong positive
correlation between spring-summer plant growth and increases in cave air
carbon dioxide. Studies in other areas have shown the same thing.
You are correct that the water temperature has an effect, as do seasonal
changes in water chemistry, both of which I didn't mention for the sake of
brevity. I would expect that a decrease in temperature would result in
dissolution of the rafts rather than the precipitation we see. However,
because the water temperature has usually come close to equilibrating with
the temperature of the surrounding mass of rock and water by the time we
see
it in the areas where rafts are deposited, I would also expect any
temperature effects to be minor given the small decrease in temperature. I
have measured significant changes in carbon dioxide and know that is
certainly a major factor.
It would be interesting to run a "standard" example of the cave's water
chemistry values through a geochemical model and tweak the temperature and
carbon dioxide levels over a series of iterations to predict how much of a
change in temperature or carbon dioxide would be needed to affect raft
deposition one way or the other.
George
***************************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
[email protected]
www.nckri.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 12:40
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: texas cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation
The degree to which the sand accumulates or is noticed at any given time
depends mostly on:
. How much time has passed since the last flood, which determines
how many rafts will accumulate floating on the water;
. How severe the flood was, and did it just sink the floating
rafts where they can be seen, or wash them away or bury them under silt and
clay where they will not be seen;
. The chemistry of the cave's water and atmosphere to create
favorable conditions for raft development. Kurt is right that they usually
form more quickly in the winter because the cave atmosphere has less carbon
dioxide at that time, allowing more carbon dioxide to degas from the water,
driving the water to supersaturation with respect to calcite, and promoting
calcite raft development.
Does the cave atmosphere have less carbon dioxide due to lesser amounts of
degradation of biomass in the ground over the cave in the winter (due to
the
lower surface air temperatures), or is it due to a reduction in temperature
of the creek water in the cave? Because the solubility of carbon dioxide
increases as the temperature of water decreases.
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick
Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of
Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been thinking a lot about Snowy, and its situation is different from
Honey Creek. Calcite precipitation on the floor of Honey Creek occurs mostly
by sunken rafts, whereas calcite in Snowy is precipitated as a crystalline
layer on the submerged walls and floors. The basic geochemical equations and
processes are the same, but there are some important differences that affect
the methods of deposition. I've not seen any water chemistry data for Snowy
and no such data exists for how the water evolves as it flows down the
passage. Also missing, at least to my eyes, is information on carbon dioxide
in the air and water at Snowy. Lastly, the source area for Honey Creek's
water is fairly well understood, which is not the case for Snowy.
I'm not discouraging research, only pointing out how much more needs to be
done. So much karst. So little time...
George
***************************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
[email protected]
www.nckri.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Lindsley [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 13:26
To: [email protected]
Cc: 'texas cavers'
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation
George, it would also be interesting to relate this to the development of
the rather recent calcite formation in Snowy RIver. SR only forms calcite in
SR during a "flood event" in the really dry NM area, and that apparently
happens only 2-4 times in a 10 year period due mostly to heavy rains and
heavy snow melts.
So we have two "Laboratory Caves" here, one in dry NM, and the other in a
much wetter TX area.
- Pete
On Feb 13, 2012, at 1:17 PM, George Veni wrote:
Measurements I made of soil and cave air carbon dioxide during my
dissertation research in the Honey Creek area show a strong positive
correlation between spring-summer plant growth and increases in cave air
carbon dioxide. Studies in other areas have shown the same thing.
You are correct that the water temperature has an effect, as do seasonal
changes in water chemistry, both of which I didn't mention for the sake of
brevity. I would expect that a decrease in temperature would result in
dissolution of the rafts rather than the precipitation we see. However,
because the water temperature has usually come close to equilibrating with
the temperature of the surrounding mass of rock and water by the time we see
it in the areas where rafts are deposited, I would also expect any
temperature effects to be minor given the small decrease in temperature. I
have measured significant changes in carbon dioxide and know that is
certainly a major factor.
It would be interesting to run a "standard" example of the cave's water
chemistry values through a geochemical model and tweak the temperature and
carbon dioxide levels over a series of iterations to predict how much of a
change in temperature or carbon dioxide would be needed to affect raft
deposition one way or the other.
George
***************************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
[email protected]
www.nckri.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 12:40
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: texas cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation
>
> The degree to which the sand accumulates or is noticed at any given
> time
depends mostly on:
> . How much time has passed since the last flood, which
> determines
how many rafts will accumulate floating on the water;
> . How severe the flood was, and did it just sink the floating
rafts where they can be seen, or wash them away or bury them under silt and
clay where they will not be seen;
> . The chemistry of the cave's water and atmosphere to create
favorable conditions for raft development. Kurt is right that they usually
form more quickly in the winter because the cave atmosphere has less carbon
dioxide at that time, allowing more carbon dioxide to degas from the water,
driving the water to supersaturation with respect to calcite, and promoting
calcite raft development.
Does the cave atmosphere have less carbon dioxide due to lesser amounts of
degradation of biomass in the ground over the cave in the winter (due to the
lower surface air temperatures), or is it due to a reduction in temperature
of the creek water in the cave? Because the solubility of carbon dioxide
increases as the temperature of water decreases.
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R.
Tomchick
Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of
Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neal,
That's a great offer. My old geochem software doesn't play well with my new
computer so I can't easily run the simulations myself. I'll be in touch
off-list in the next day or two with more information.
George
***************************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
[email protected]
www.nckri.org
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 14:23
To: 'texas cavers'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation
Sounds like a job for Geochemists' Workbench (or PHREEQC), which I have access
to. I'd be glad to do some runs if data is available. Temperature effects I bet
are minor as mentioned, and partial pressure of CO2 should be a main driver for
depositional events of calcite "snow". These depositional events happen in
lakes, too.
Just for the record, this is Neal Hines (NSS 47827), relatively new to Texas
(Austin), having moved here from Minnesota with my wife who is in music grad.
school at UT. I've met several cavers already and I look forward to getting
underground a bit more.
-Neal
On Feb 13 2012, George Veni wrote:
>Measurements I made of soil and cave air carbon dioxide during my
>dissertation research in the Honey Creek area show a strong positive
>correlation between spring-summer plant growth and increases in cave
>air carbon dioxide. Studies in other areas have shown the same thing.
>
>You are correct that the water temperature has an effect, as do
>seasonal changes in water chemistry, both of which I didn't mention for
>the sake of brevity. I would expect that a decrease in temperature
>would result in dissolution of the rafts rather than the precipitation
>we see. However, because the water temperature has usually come close
>to equilibrating with
the temperature of the surrounding mass of rock and water by the time we see
>it in the areas where rafts are deposited, I would also expect any
>temperature effects to be minor given the small decrease in
>temperature. I have measured significant changes in carbon dioxide and
>know that is certainly a major factor.
>
>It would be interesting to run a "standard" example of the cave's water
>chemistry values through a geochemical model and tweak the temperature
>and carbon dioxide levels over a series of iterations to predict how
>much of a change in temperature or carbon dioxide would be needed to
>affect raft deposition one way or the other.
>
>George
>
>***************************
>
>George Veni, Ph.D.
>Executive Director
>National Cave and Karst Research Institute
>400-1 Cascades Avenue
>Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
>Office: 575-887-5517
>Mobile: 210-863-5919
>Fax: 575-887-5523
>[email protected]
>www.nckri.org
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:[email protected]]
>Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 12:40
>To: <[email protected]>
>Cc: texas cavers
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation
>
>>
>> The degree to which the sand accumulates or is noticed at any given
>> time
>depends mostly on:
>> . How much time has passed since the last flood, which determines
>how many rafts will accumulate floating on the water;
>> . How severe the flood was, and did it just sink the floating
>rafts where they can be seen, or wash them away or bury them under silt
>and clay where they will not be seen;
>> . The chemistry of the cave's water and atmosphere to create
>favorable conditions for raft development. Kurt is right that they
>usually form more quickly in the winter because the cave atmosphere has
>less carbon dioxide at that time, allowing more carbon dioxide to degas
>from the water, driving the water to supersaturation with respect to
>calcite, and promoting calcite raft development.
>
>Does the cave atmosphere have less carbon dioxide due to lesser amounts
>of
degradation of biomass in the ground over the cave in the winter (due to the
>lower surface air temperatures), or is it due to a reduction in
>temperature of the creek water in the cave? Because the solubility of
>carbon dioxide increases as the temperature of water decreases.
>
>Diana
>
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R.
>Tomchick Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
>Department of Biochemistry
>5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
>Rm. ND10.214B
>Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
>Email: [email protected]
>214-645-6383 (phone)
>214-645-6353 (fax)
>
>________________________________
>
>UT Southwestern Medical Center
>The future of medicine, today.
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>[email protected]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
[email protected]
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a similar vein, back in the '80s in Spring Creek Cave
(TX) I remember breaking through calcite ice that had formed a solid
layer on the surface of the water in active stream passage. We
crunched through it sinking large pieces as we walked. A few months
later when we returned the solid layer of calcite had already
reformed on the water. I do not remember the times of year that
those trips took place, but obviously calcite rafts/ice can form very
rapidly under optimal conditions.
Mark
At 04:36 PM 2/13/2012, George Veni wrote:
I've been thinking a lot about Snowy, and its situation is different from
Honey Creek. Calcite precipitation on the floor of Honey Creek occurs mostly
by sunken rafts, whereas calcite in Snowy is precipitated as a crystalline
layer on the submerged walls and floors. The basic geochemical equations and
processes are the same, but there are some important differences that affect
the methods of deposition. I've not seen any water chemistry data for Snowy
and no such data exists for how the water evolves as it flows down the
passage. Also missing, at least to my eyes, is information on carbon dioxide
in the air and water at Snowy. Lastly, the source area for Honey Creek's
water is fairly well understood, which is not the case for Snowy.
I'm not discouraging research, only pointing out how much more needs to be
done. So much karst. So little time...
George
***************************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
[email protected]
www.nckri.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Lindsley [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 13:26
To: [email protected]
Cc: 'texas cavers'
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation
George, it would also be interesting to relate this to the development of
the rather recent calcite formation in Snowy RIver. SR only forms calcite in
SR during a "flood event" in the really dry NM area, and that apparently
happens only 2-4 times in a 10 year period due mostly to heavy rains and
heavy snow melts.
So we have two "Laboratory Caves" here, one in dry NM, and the other in a
much wetter TX area.
- Pete
On Feb 13, 2012, at 1:17 PM, George Veni wrote:
Measurements I made of soil and cave air carbon dioxide during my
dissertation research in the Honey Creek area show a strong positive
correlation between spring-summer plant growth and increases in cave air
carbon dioxide. Studies in other areas have shown the same thing.
You are correct that the water temperature has an effect, as do seasonal
changes in water chemistry, both of which I didn't mention for the sake of
brevity. I would expect that a decrease in temperature would result in
dissolution of the rafts rather than the precipitation we see. However,
because the water temperature has usually come close to equilibrating with
the temperature of the surrounding mass of rock and water by the time we see
it in the areas where rafts are deposited, I would also expect any
temperature effects to be minor given the small decrease in temperature. I
have measured significant changes in carbon dioxide and know that is
certainly a major factor.
It would be interesting to run a "standard" example of the cave's water
chemistry values through a geochemical model and tweak the temperature and
carbon dioxide levels over a series of iterations to predict how much of a
change in temperature or carbon dioxide would be needed to affect raft
deposition one way or the other.
George
***************************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
[email protected]
www.nckri.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 12:40
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: texas cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation
> The degree to which the sand accumulates or is noticed at any given
> time depends mostly on:
> . How much time has passed since the last flood, which determines
how many rafts will accumulate floating on the water;
> . How severe the flood was, and did it just sink the floating
rafts where they can be seen, or wash them away or bury them under silt and
clay where they will not be seen;
> . The chemistry of the cave's water and atmosphere to create
favorable conditions for raft development. Kurt is right that they usually
form more quickly in the winter because the cave atmosphere has less carbon
dioxide at that time, allowing more carbon dioxide to degas from the water,
driving the water to supersaturation with respect to calcite, and promoting
calcite raft development.
Does the cave atmosphere have less carbon dioxide due to lesser amounts of
degradation of biomass in the ground over the cave in the winter (due to the
lower surface air temperatures), or is it due to a reduction in temperature
of the creek water in the cave? Because the solubility of carbon dioxide
increases as the temperature of water decreases.
Diana
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
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We observed a layer of cave ice on the water in cave without a name upstream
passage this January. I don't recall seeing any on trips we did back in 2000.
On Feb 13, 2012, at 7:45 PM, Mark Minton <[email protected]> wrote:
> In a similar vein, back in the '80s in Spring Creek Cave (TX) I
> remember breaking through calcite ice that had formed a solid layer on the
> surface of the water in active stream passage. We crunched through it
> sinking large pieces as we walked. A few months later when we returned the
> solid layer of calcite had already reformed on the water. I do not remember
> the times of year that those trips took place, but obviously calcite
> rafts/ice can form very rapidly under optimal conditions.
>
> Mark
>
> At 04:36 PM 2/13/2012, George Veni wrote:
>> I've been thinking a lot about Snowy, and its situation is different from
>> Honey Creek. Calcite precipitation on the floor of Honey Creek occurs mostly
>> by sunken rafts, whereas calcite in Snowy is precipitated as a crystalline
>> layer on the submerged walls and floors. The basic geochemical equations and
>> processes are the same, but there are some important differences that affect
>> the methods of deposition. I've not seen any water chemistry data for Snowy
>> and no such data exists for how the water evolves as it flows down the
>> passage. Also missing, at least to my eyes, is information on carbon dioxide
>> in the air and water at Snowy. Lastly, the source area for Honey Creek's
>> water is fairly well understood, which is not the case for Snowy.
>>
>> I'm not discouraging research, only pointing out how much more needs to be
>> done. So much karst. So little time...
>>
>> George
>>
>> ***************************
>>
>> George Veni, Ph.D.
>> Executive Director
>> National Cave and Karst Research Institute
>> 400-1 Cascades Avenue
>> Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
>> Office: 575-887-5517
>> Mobile: 210-863-5919
>> Fax: 575-887-5523
>> [email protected]
>> www.nckri.org
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pete Lindsley [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 13:26
>> To: [email protected]
>> Cc: 'texas cavers'
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation
>>
>> George, it would also be interesting to relate this to the development of
>> the rather recent calcite formation in Snowy RIver. SR only forms calcite in
>> SR during a "flood event" in the really dry NM area, and that apparently
>> happens only 2-4 times in a 10 year period due mostly to heavy rains and
>> heavy snow melts.
>>
>> So we have two "Laboratory Caves" here, one in dry NM, and the other in a
>> much wetter TX area.
>>
>> - Pete
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 1:17 PM, George Veni wrote:
>>
>> Measurements I made of soil and cave air carbon dioxide during my
>> dissertation research in the Honey Creek area show a strong positive
>> correlation between spring-summer plant growth and increases in cave air
>> carbon dioxide. Studies in other areas have shown the same thing.
>>
>> You are correct that the water temperature has an effect, as do seasonal
>> changes in water chemistry, both of which I didn't mention for the sake of
>> brevity. I would expect that a decrease in temperature would result in
>> dissolution of the rafts rather than the precipitation we see. However,
>> because the water temperature has usually come close to equilibrating with
>> the temperature of the surrounding mass of rock and water by the time we see
>> it in the areas where rafts are deposited, I would also expect any
>> temperature effects to be minor given the small decrease in temperature. I
>> have measured significant changes in carbon dioxide and know that is
>> certainly a major factor.
>>
>> It would be interesting to run a "standard" example of the cave's water
>> chemistry values through a geochemical model and tweak the temperature and
>> carbon dioxide levels over a series of iterations to predict how much of a
>> change in temperature or carbon dioxide would be needed to affect raft
>> deposition one way or the other.
>>
>> George
>>
>> ***************************
>>
>> George Veni, Ph.D.
>> Executive Director
>> National Cave and Karst Research Institute
>> 400-1 Cascades Avenue
>> Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
>> Office: 575-887-5517
>> Mobile: 210-863-5919
>> Fax: 575-887-5523
>> [email protected]
>> www.nckri.org
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 12:40
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Cc: texas cavers
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Honey Creek sand observation
>>
>> > The degree to which the sand accumulates or is noticed at any given
>> > time depends mostly on:
>> > . How much time has passed since the last flood, which determines
>> how many rafts will accumulate floating on the water;
>> > . How severe the flood was, and did it just sink the floating
>> rafts where they can be seen, or wash them away or bury them under silt and
>> clay where they will not be seen;
>> > . The chemistry of the cave's water and atmosphere to create
>> favorable conditions for raft development. Kurt is right that they usually
>> form more quickly in the winter because the cave atmosphere has less carbon
>> dioxide at that time, allowing more carbon dioxide to degas from the water,
>> driving the water to supersaturation with respect to calcite, and promoting
>> calcite raft development.
>>
>> Does the cave atmosphere have less carbon dioxide due to lesser amounts of
>> degradation of biomass in the ground over the cave in the winter (due to the
>> lower surface air temperatures), or is it due to a reduction in temperature
>> of the creek water in the cave? Because the solubility of carbon dioxide
>> increases as the temperature of water decreases.
>>
>> Diana
>
> Please reply to [email protected]
> Permanent email address is [email protected]
>
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I just posted this on TAGnet, but since word of this wretched little cave
has made it all the way to Texas I decided to share my personal remembrance
of the place. In general I try to forget that I ever had the misfortune to
live in Maryland. In the immortal words of the Talking Heads, "Don't go
back to Rockville!"
Schetromph cave is a potential deathtrap. I know because I have been there
many times. Back in the mid to late sixties it was a popular destination
for cavers from the Washington DC area who were young, skinny, and had
nothing better to do.
After a nasty climb down near the entrance there is a dreadfully tight
round tube called the "corkscrew". The only possible way to enter it was
headfirst with helmet off with one arm ahead and one behind. The tube sloped
steeply down and to enter it was an act of foolish gravity based faith. The
only way out was to shoulder wriggle forward until such time as the tube
corkscrewed steeply up at the other end where there were jagged rocks to pull
on
and thus exit the tube of terror. Why we did this repeatedly I do not
know, but I can assure you that I would never do it again for the entire cave
is worthless, as are all caves in Maryland. For that matter Maryland itself
is worthless.
Getting out was somewhat easier but much more potentially dangerous. Again,
the only choice was to go head first and trust in gravity. The
aforementioned jagged rocks formed a keyhole slot into which it was easy to
let your
foot slip, but once gravity was puling you down into the corkscrew tube
there was no way to extricate your foot. You would simply hang there by your
boot until you died. I once made the mistake of going there with a tall
gangly fellow who was thus trapped, as was I until I managed to work his foot
out of the slot. If I am not mistaken this is the place where the recent
victim was trapped, though I find it hard to imagine how he could have gotten
his knee folded against his body in such a tight space.
Need I mention that caves in Maryland are cold and we were invariably
dressed in tee shirts and denim jackets? The thought of listening to his dying
moans while watching my carbide lamp flicker out was not pleasant.
Most extraordinary of all was the fact that someone for some inexplicable
reason somehow dragged a concrete block through the corkscrew. When I found
it inside the cave I was absolutely flabbergasted. After finding it I
methodically searched the cave since it seemed utterly impossible that anyone
could have done such a thing. There is another entrance but it is suitable
only for raccoons. It would seem to me that the only hope for a rescue from
the corkscrew would be to enlarge the other entrance with a backhoe. The
fact that the fellow was extricated otherwise is nothing short of a miracle
and all credit to the brave fellow who chiseled him out!
Sleazeweazel
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Sounds like the old Dead Dog Cave in Austin, a testpiece of squirrely caving,
as well as the Wire Wiggle in the back of Airman's.
Cavingly,
Preston formerly of 1307 1/2 Kirkwood
============================================
----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 2:24 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Schetromph cave
I just posted this on TAGnet, but since word of this wretched little cave
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Are you kidding? That makes the wire wiggle sound like a walk in the park!
-Andy
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:56 PM, Preston Forsythe <[email protected]>wrote:
> **
> Sounds like the old Dead Dog Cave in Austin, a testpiece of squirrely
> caving, as well as the Wire Wiggle in the back of Airman's.
>
> Cavingly,
>
> Preston formerly of 1307 1/2 Kirkwood
> ============================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* [email protected]
> *To:* [email protected]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 13, 2012 2:24 PM
> *Subject:* [Texascavers] Schetromph cave
>
> I just posted this on TAGnet, but since word of this wretched little cave
>
>
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http://www.kvue.com/home/Vampire-bats-may-be-on-their-way-to-Texas-139222439.html
--
*Go find out!*
-Heather Tuček
UT Grotto
TSA Membership Chair
NSS 59660
(512) 773-1348
[email protected]
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