Hi SWR Folks, There is no "legal issue", which an email thread going on in the Western Region. Since the SWR list is the same kind of list as the Western Region, below are the details.
thanks, Ray ----------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Keeler To: [email protected] Cc: Bonny Armstrong Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [NSSwest] legal issue Hi Wm, I see no "legal issue" with this distribution. The Western Region is an authorized IO of the NSS. The Western Region's officers are required to be current NSS members. They are. This list is the primary communication mechanism for Western Region members (primarily NSS members). Therefore, sending the ACA to NSS members, is what the NSS is about. Second point: The ACA has always been a separate publication from the NEWS. The ACA is NOT part of the NEWS. The reason for having it come out as the News - Part II is cost reduction when mailing through the U.S. Postal Service. We use this same mechanism for mailing the Members Manual (News - Part II). I defer to Tom Rea (NSS Books) or Bill Putnam (previous ACA editor and current BOG Director) to provide better details. It is saving money, not the same publication. In other words, the act listed below, while relevant, is for the News, not the ACA. There is no "legal issue" with this distribution. You can help everyon by helping get the digital ACA onto the ACA web page for downloading. thanks, Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: Wm Shrewsbury To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 5:27 AM Subject: RE: [NSSwest] legal issue (The message below was sent to the Board as well, however my subscription to this forum is still under the Yahoo username I used prior to my current position). Ray, A digital release of the ACA was very briefly discussed by the board during a recent workshop. The verbal consensus was that we should take steps to immediately publish the ACA on our website following its normal release to the membership. The ACA could be a useful tool for member recruitment, among other things, however it is also a publication that our membership has paid for. We deserve what we pay for. You served on the Board as an officer. The ACA, while budgeted separately for due to its irregular printing schedule, is an issue of the NSS News. As an officer you proposed a motion in the Spring 2010 meeting to make the print version of the ACA an 'opt in' and to distribute the it electronically. The motion, as you are aware, was postponed and then later withdrawn in August 2010. The Act in question: Act 80-809 Policy on Placing the NSS NEWS on the Web 8-15-08:26 Issues of the NSS NEWS that have been in print for at least five (5) years will be made available for posting on the Karst Information Portal web site. Maps of caves in those issues may be extracted and archived separately to prevent public download. The decision of how to distribute our publications is not the editor's but the Officers/Board. It is, simply, not your call but by the Board's direction to the Officers, specifically to the EVP. You received a call from me on the same day your email arrive. During that call I explained that my response was a "thank you" for producing the ACA, and that the digital copy the Board received was perceived as a "sneak preview". However, I must admit that I didn't scroll to the bottom of your message, in which you requested us to distribute this among list-serves, email, etc. Let me be perfectly clear here as I was with you on the phone - when the ACA is released digitally is will be on the NSS website, not as an email attachment. Responses on the Board list has have been united and consistent - this publication will go to print first. I have seen emails from your own committee members reflecting this position. Below is part of an October 19th email to you from ACA Committee member and Director Bill Putnam: Ray, Nice work! I can take care of putting it up on the ACA web page. I would suggest, however, that we not do that until the print copy has been distributed. The BOG made it pretty clear that they still want to send a print version out for the time being, and distributing it electronically would steal the thunder from the printed issue. Have you discussed this with John Cole? From a letter to you by John Cole: There are copyright issues, membership value issues, protocol issues, etc., etc., that you were either not considering or chose to ignore. The ACA, in its final format, is a highly valued "product" of the NSS, and, as such, something we offer as a specific benefit to members. There are governing Acts regarding the ACA and its distribution, something as a former officer you're no doubt cognizant of. These are standards that we cannot merely change to conform to our individual opinions, but must be handled and/or amended by the established processes of parliamentary procedure. As you've noted, the ACA is also a valuable tool toward recruiting new members, but should have been distributed after its publication, not prior to, and then only through the proper channels. I must ask you to cease sending out the ACA to list-serves, bulletin boards, etc., at this time. You have done your job, and done so beautifully. Now please allow us to do ours. Ray, we have nothing but accolades for you and your committee members for having produced the ACA. We have not given permission for this to be distributed prior to the print version. No one from the Board has contacted you and asked you to send it out as an email attachment. The Board is aware there is a demand for digital versions of our publications and we are taking the proper steps to do so. Please stop your distribution of this publication immediately. As John spoke to you in other sections of his letter, we thank you for all the hard work you've done for us. We also understand that you have resigned and that Bonnie Armstrong is the acting chairman at this time while the position is being advertised. John will work with her to bring this out in print and as a release on our website at the proper time. Discussion over. Thank you, Wm Shrewsbury NSS President From: Ray Keeler [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 1:35 AM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [NSSwest] legal issue Wm, I have included your email to me and the Executive Committee below. Your retraction below is a complete reversal. Also, when the digital copy of the ACA was sent to the BOG, not one member of the BOG complained. Not one. Two members, including you, sent compliments. So, are you sayi it is OK to send digital copies of publications to Board members, but not the NSS members? My hope is that the NSS gets an Online Publications section from a comment/concept to a real entity soon. The next email is the quite complimentary from Wm. to me on getting the ACA out digitally. thanks, Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: Wm Shrewsbury To: [email protected] Cc: 'Ray Keeler' ; Bill Putnam Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 6:18 AM Subject: RE: ACA 2009-2010 Is Out EC, I have included Ray Keeler, editor of this ACA edition as well as a major pusher toward electronic publications in the past; and Bill Putnam, previously ACA editor and another major proponent of digital dissemination. Ultimately I believe we should post this in a new web section - Online Publications. While I laud the ability for anyone to read our pubs, I realize we need to have an incentive for people to be members and thus receive this as a benefit. We currently limit previous viewing of the News to 5 years or older; JCKS is immediate. Suggestions on how to handle this particular item? Additionally, I currently have in my hands the master PDFs of all of our pubs that are hosted on the KIP site. If we were to create an "Online Publications" section, perhaps requiring the same login method the business section does, then we could put all of these there as well. Thoughts folks? Wm From: Ray Keeler [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 8:31 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; Dean Wiseman; [email protected]; [email protected] Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; Dave Luckins; [email protected]; Bonny Armstrong Subject: ACA 2009-2010 Is Out Hi All, Attached is the 2009-2010. The goal is to have the PDF downloadable from the ACA web page and I see several reasons why the NSS should get the ACA out to non-NSS cavers to help get them to join. For those new to the Board, older issues of the ACA are already available online at the Karst Information Portal (KIP). Also, by publishing electronically, we save the NSS over $6000 in printing costs. Win-win-win. Please pass along to your constituancies, list servers, and caver friends. thanks and safe caving, Ray Keeler ACA Editor ----- Original Message ----- From: Wm Shrewsbury To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 6:14 PM Subject: RE: [NSSwest] legal issue Hello Steve and All, This is to let you know that the ACA was not intended to be published digitally at this time. While we have been making head roads in this area, we are currently restricting the NSS News and ACA to hardcopy until they are 5 years in arrears. There has been discussion to shorten this time span, and indeed the NSS Executive Committee is researching potential digital subscribers. We would, of course, lower the dues if a member chooses to subscribe this way. I must stress that this discussion is in the early stages and not effective at this time. The NSS requests that the moderator of this forum please delete the ACA from the files section. The ACA is copyrighted, and permission was not granted by the NSS to distribute it freely. The ACA, like our other publications, is part of our member benefits. One day, perhaps within the next year, we may offer a digital version however we do not at this time. The EVP has confirmed this. Indeed, Ray pushed to have the ACA as a digital download when he was on the Board of Governors. As he is aware, we were not ready to do so at the time and the motion failed. Ray does not have permission to email it to our membership, and certainly not to non-members. When the NSS chooses to distribute current publications digitally we will make them available on our site, not passed around as an email. Enjoy your "preview copy". Your hardcopy will arrive in the mail. Wm Shrewsbury NSS President From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ray Keeler Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 12:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [NSSwest] legal issue Hi Steve and All, If the NSS starts seeing new members because NSS members are passing along their PDF copies, I think they will be thrilled. Be a Safe Caver. Keep Informed. Become an NSS Member. ... and American Caving Accidents is an excellent example of why. If we (NSS Members) can include just 100 new, regular members because of ACA PDFs being forwarded across the entire United States to active, currently non-NSS cavers, then that would represent an additional $4000. That would only be 2 additional cavers per state. You raise valid point, however forwarding to individuals and not for profit by an outside entity seems to be very little infringement in the name of safety ... but I'm not a lawyer either thanks, Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 12:29 PM Subject: [NSSwest] legal issue Ray In the document is a copyright statement. What is the legal situation with digital copies? Can this legally be passed on to non-NSS? Seems to me one would be passing on "their" copy, not reproducing it, but I am not a lawyer. What is the deal there, legally? Steve __._,_.___ ----- Original Message ----- From: Wm Shrewsbury To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 3:13 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] The Latest ACA Available Digitally Everyone, I will limit my reply to this message so that the discussion does not become divided between several threads forums. The Board is very aware that a digital version of the ACA is desired by some of our members. If you are a member of the NSSwest yahoo group, please see the thread "legal issue" for a detailed response. Wm From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ray Keeler Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 2:33 AM To: Mailing List for SWR Subject: [SWR] The Latest ACA Available Digitally Hi All, If you would like to see the American Caving Accidents available digitally on the ACA web page, please, please, please, send a short email to the NSS BOG at [email protected] The BOG really needs to see a direct support from the NSS membership to have the American Caving Accidents available digitally on the NSS web pages. If you opened the ACA and started reading it from my earlier email, please let them know. I can use some help on this one. It will only take one minute. If just 10 respond, they will get the message. thanks, Ray Keeler ACA Editor ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ SWR mailing list [email protected] http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
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