texascavers Digest 25 Jul 2012 15:31:42 -0000 Issue 1595
Topics (messages 20393 through 20405):
Carlsbad Caverns
20393 by: Preston Forsythe
20394 by: George D. Nincehelser
20395 by: Bill Bentley
20396 by: George D. Nincehelser
20397 by: George Veni
fumes in CC visitor center
20398 by: Mixon Bill
20399 by: Ted Samsel
20402 by: Mallory Mayeux
20403 by: Geary Schindel
Re: I need help in Spain
20400 by: Diana Tomchick
20401 by: Allan B. Cobb
fumes
20404 by: Mixon Bill
Re: :[i] Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: I need help in Spain
20405 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
Heard tonight via a RV Forum:
"Visitor center and cave are closed if you are headed that way. Some type of
air contamination due to construction work in the elevator shaft. Call
575-785-2232 for updates on the closure."
"The bat flight program is still on."
Preston in Outer Browder, KY about a 26 hour drive from Carlsbad and the Guads.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They say something was sprayed on the elevator rails and it's making people
sick.
I'm wondering if there's a little mass hysteria going on.
George
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Preston Forsythe <pns_...@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> **
> Heard tonight via a RV Forum:
>
> *"Visitor center and cave are closed* if you are headed that way. Some
> type of air contamination due to construction work in the elevator shaft.
> Call 575-785-2232 for updates on the closure."
>
> "The bat flight program is still on."
>
>
> Preston in Outer Browder, KY about a 26 hour drive from Carlsbad and the
> Guads.
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The last time I licked elevator rails I got sick too!
----- Original Message -----
From: George D. Nincehelser
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Carlsbad Caverns
They say something was sprayed on the elevator rails and it's making people
sick.
I'm wondering if there's a little mass hysteria going on.
George
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Preston Forsythe <pns_...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Heard tonight via a RV Forum:
"Visitor center and cave are closed if you are headed that way. Some type
of air contamination due to construction work in the elevator shaft. Call
575-785-2232 for updates on the closure."
"The bat flight program is still on."
Preston in Outer Browder, KY about a 26 hour drive from Carlsbad and the
Guads.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought visitors were claiming sickness, but it appears not. Just a few
park workers, which seems plausible.
http://www.currentargus.com/ci_21147034/carlsbad-caverns-remain-closed-after-seven-national-park
Carlsbad Caverns remain closed after seven National Park Service employees
sickened by fumes
By Stella Davis
Current-Argus staff writer
Posted: 07/24/2012 02:02:09 PM MDT
CARLSBAD - Carlsbad Caverns National Park remained closed Tuesday after
seven employees fell ill and were taken to the hospital on Monday,
suffering from the effects of toxic fumes.
The park was closed at 2 p.m. Monday after heavy fumes from a solvent used
by a contractor on the newly installed elevator rails permeated through the
park's Visitor Center.
"We are bracing for more employee feeling the effects of the fumes," said
Park Superintendent John Benjamin.
He said visitors to the caverns were probably not exposed to the fumes
because of their short duration in the Visitor Center. However, employees
were exposed to the heavy fumes for at least two days.
Benjamin said the National Park's Denver Service Center has assigned an
industrial hygienist to the park to come down to "scour" the building and
everyone who has worked in it.
In the meantime, Benjamin said the contractor working on the elevator
project has been tasked to locate equipment that can determine there are no
harmful chemicals in the building.
"We are struggling with this. How did this happen?" Benjamin said.
On Tuesday, park rangers were stationed at the entrance to the park's road
leading to the Visi-tor Center and were turning visitors away.
Benjamin said whether the park will reopen Wednesday depends on getting the
all-clear from the professionals and the monitoring equipment brought in to
ensure the chemical fumes are fully dissipated.
"There could be some odorless or tasteless residuals from what was painted
on the elevator rails," Benjamin said. "I'm hoping the contractor will find
the piece of equipment and get it in place so we can get everything checked
out."
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:44 PM, Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net> wrote:
> **
> The last time I licked elevator rails I got sick too!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* George D. Nincehelser <george.nincehel...@gmail.com>
> *To:* Texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:42 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Carlsbad Caverns
>
> They say something was sprayed on the elevator rails and it's making
> people sick.
>
> I'm wondering if there's a little mass hysteria going on.
>
> George
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Preston Forsythe
> <pns_...@bellsouth.net>wrote:
>
>> **
>> Heard tonight via a RV Forum:
>>
>> *"Visitor center and cave are closed* if you are headed that way. Some
>> type of air contamination due to construction work in the elevator shaft.
>> Call 575-785-2232 for updates on the closure."
>>
>> "The bat flight program is still on."
>>
>>
>> Preston in Outer Browder, KY about a 26 hour drive from Carlsbad and the
>> Guads.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No mass hysteria. The fumes were pretty bad. A few park staff had to be taken
to the hospital.
George
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave & Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org
Sent by mobile phone.
"George D. Nincehelser" <george.nincehel...@gmail.com> wrote:They say something
was sprayed on the elevator rails and it's making people sick.
I'm wondering if there's a little mass hysteria going on.
George
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Preston Forsythe <pns_...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Heard tonight via a RV Forum:
"Visitor center and cave are closed if you are headed that way. Some type of
air contamination due to construction work in the elevator shaft. Call
575-785-2232 for updates on the closure."
"The bat flight program is still on."
Preston in Outer Browder, KY about a 26 hour drive from Carlsbad and the Guads.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The fact that a few staff "had to" be taken to hospital does not prove
that there was any real danger or there were any real injuries, given
the "excess of caution" (wimpishness) that prevails these days. One
would have to know more to decide. -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fear of lawsuits is wimpishness? Christ on a crutch. Get a grip.
Ted
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> The fact that a few staff "had to" be taken to hospital does not prove
> that there was any real danger or there were any real injuries, given the
> "excess of caution" (wimpishness) that prevails these days. One would have
> to know more to decide. -- Mixon
> ------------------------------**----------
> Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
> ------------------------------**----------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know Bill. If I was at work and suddenly puked, fainted or whatever it
was happened that to these park service employees, I would sure want someone to
figure out the problem and correct it!
Sounds like real danger to me....
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 9:39 AM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> The fact that a few staff "had to" be taken to hospital does not prove that
> there was any real danger or there were any real injuries, given the "excess
> of caution" (wimpishness) that prevails these days. One would have to know
> more to decide. -- Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
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> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
I agree with Bill, when using solvent based paints (or for that matter, any
hazards material) in a confined space, it is much quicker, easier and cheaper
to use humans to determine if you've exceeded any health related chemical
thresholds verses real time air monitoring or canaries. Most of the time, most
folks become violently ill before they actually die. While this is not the
recommended method by the American Council of Governmental Industrial
Hygienists, it seems to be the technique most often used by industry. When
employees get sick, it is probably time to give them at least a 15 minute
break. You don't have to worry about long term exposures such as an increased
risk of lung or blood cancers as those folks probably won't be working for you
in 20 years anyway so not your problem.
Matter of fact, with substances such as asbestos or silica dust, by allowing
humans in a contaminated work area without respirators, they actually help
clean the air as the lungs retain some of the asbestos fibers or silica (good
for the room, bad for the lungs). If you would like to see an excellent
presentation on silicoses and the Hawks Nest Tunnel in West Virginia and the
largest industrial accident in US History, you may want to visit Helen Lang's
web page http://www.geo.wvu.edu/~lang/Geol484/HN-shorter.pdf
I'm sure that the contractor read and followed all of the warning labels and
safety precautions for use of the product and that it was really safe for use
in a confined environment and that the manufacturers warning about using the
product only in well ventilated areas was just to protect them from lawsuits.
Using canaries for air monitoring has fallen out of favor in recent years as
they are cute and folks get attached to them. In addition, there are a number
of powerful animal rights groups that help protect their interests (wonder how
that would work for humans). The correct method would be to develop a health
and safety plan that would require proper environmental controls such as
ventilation, selecting appropriate chemicals, using protective equipment,
closing down the facility, and air monitoring. However, that all costs time
and money.
G
-----Original Message-----
From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:40 AM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
The fact that a few staff "had to" be taken to hospital does not prove that
there was any real danger or there were any real injuries, given the "excess of
caution" (wimpishness) that prevails these days. One would have to know more to
decide. -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use,
save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just in case there isn't someone out there that doesn't know this is a scam
(and there still are people, thank the Lord my mother doesn't have an email
account), please don't send the money. Tom, you've been hacked.
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biophysics
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email:
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu<mailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu>
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
Begin forwarded message:
From: Tom Brown <cavei...@yahoo.com<mailto:cavei...@yahoo.com>>
Subject: I need help in Spain
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: July 25, 2012 6:41:05 AM CDT
To: <cavei...@yahoo.com<mailto:cavei...@yahoo.com>>
Reply-To: <cavei...@aol.com<mailto:cavei...@aol.com>>
I just arrived in Spain, I need your help, I'm in a fix. Can I get a loan of
€1,360? You'll have it as soon as I get back home. I lost my bank card, I'll
appreciate what you can give if not all. Western Union happens to be fastest
and secure means. Kindly get it wired to my name, current location :- Narvaez
69 - Esquina Calle Sainz De Baranda, ZIP Code: 28009 Madrid, Spain. I will also
need the MTCN on the receipt that will be give to you by the Western Union to
pick up the money here. I really appreciate this.
Thanks
Tom
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's a scam?!?! I just sent him the $4.5 million I won in the Nigerian lottery.
Boy do I feel dumb.
Sent with my fat thumbs on my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Diana Tomchick
<diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu> wrote:
> Just in case there isn't someone out there that doesn't know this is a scam
> (and there still are people, thank the Lord my mother doesn't have an email
> account), please don't send the money. Tom, you've been hacked.
>
> Diana
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Professor
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> Department of Biophysics
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214B
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
>
> Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
> 214-645-6383 (phone)
> 214-645-6353 (fax)
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Tom Brown <cavei...@yahoo.com>
>> Subject: I need help in Spain
>> Date: July 25, 2012 6:41:05 AM CDT
>> To: <cavei...@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: <cavei...@aol.com>
>>
>> I just arrived in Spain, I need your help, I'm in a fix. Can I get a loan of
>> €1,360? You'll have it as soon as I get back home. I lost my bank card, I'll
>> appreciate what you can give if not all. Western Union happens to be fastest
>> and secure means. Kindly get it wired to my name, current location :-
>> Narvaez 69 - Esquina Calle Sainz De Baranda, ZIP Code: 28009 Madrid, Spain.
>> I will also need the MTCN on the receipt that will be give to you by the
>> Western Union to pick up the money here. I really appreciate this.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Tom
>
>
>
> UT Southwestern Medical Center
> The future of medicine, today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The "power of suggestion" is indeed powerful. If you think fumes are
making you sick, they very well might. -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need help here in Mesquite.
Send ME some money!
Mark
From: Allan B. Cobb [mailto:a...@oztotl.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:11 AM
To: Diana Tomchick
Cc: Cave Tex
Subject: s::[i] Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: I need help in Spain
It's a scam?!?! I just sent him the $4.5 million I won in the Nigerian lottery.
Boy do I feel dumb.
Sent with my fat thumbs on my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Diana Tomchick
<diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu> wrote:
Just in case there isn't someone out there that doesn't know this is a
scam (and there still are people, thank the Lord my mother doesn't have an
email account), please don't send the money. Tom, you've been hacked.
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biophysics
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
Begin forwarded message:
From: Tom Brown <cavei...@yahoo.com>
Subject: I need help in Spain
Date: July 25, 2012 6:41:05 AM CDT
To: <cavei...@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: <cavei...@aol.com>
I just arrived in Spain, I need your help, I'm in a fix. Can I get a loan of
€1,360? You'll have it as soon as I get back home. I lost my bank card, I'll
appreciate what you can give if not all. Western Union happens to be fastest
and secure means. Kindly get it wired to my name, current location :- Narvaez
69 - Esquina Calle Sainz De Baranda, ZIP Code: 28009 Madrid, Spain. I will also
need the MTCN on the receipt that will be give to you by the Western Union to
pick up the money here. I really appreciate this.
Thanks
Tom
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
--- End Message ---
