texascavers Digest 31 Jul 2012 22:20:38 -0000 Issue 1600
Topics (messages 20431 through 20437):
Re: Carbon Dioxide
20431 by: Mark Minton
20433 by: Louise Power
20434 by: Don Cooper
20435 by: Nico Escamilla
Re: fumes in CC visitor center
20432 by: rafal kedzierski
UT Grotto Meeting - Wed August 1st
20436 by: Gary Franklin
Cave in South Africa Pushes Back Stone Age Date
20437 by: Mark Minton
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--- Begin Message ---
Weird that the source Louise cited brought up cabon
_mon_oxide poisoning. That is irrelevant and _much_ worse. Carbon
monoxide binds very strongly to hemoglobin, similarly to cyanide and
unlike carbon dioxide and oxygen, which bind quite reversibly. CO
very quickly becomes toxic, whereas CO2 is relatively benign, causing
illness but not fatality unless high levels are maintained for a
prolonged period.
Fortunately carbon monoxide is relatively rare in the
natural world and comes mainly from incomplete combustion. Simple
confinement will not likely produce CO poisoning unless the
atmosphere is already contaminated.
Mark
At 07:32 PM 7/28/2012, Louise Power wrote:
>Some external sources that can cause carbon monoxide poisoning
include cigarette smoke, gas water heaters, charcoal grills, boats
with engine, diesel or gasoline powered generators, and spray paints.
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I went back and looked. Could have just been a typo. Every other place it said
dioxide.
> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 21:42:26 -0400
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> From: mmin...@caver.net
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Carbon Dioxide
>
> Weird that the source Louise cited brought up cabon
> _mon_oxide poisoning. That is irrelevant and _much_ worse. Carbon
> monoxide binds very strongly to hemoglobin, similarly to cyanide and
> unlike carbon dioxide and oxygen, which bind quite reversibly. CO
> very quickly becomes toxic, whereas CO2 is relatively benign, causing
> illness but not fatality unless high levels are maintained for a
> prolonged period.
> Fortunately carbon monoxide is relatively rare in the
> natural world and comes mainly from incomplete combustion. Simple
> confinement will not likely produce CO poisoning unless the
> atmosphere is already contaminated.
>
> Mark
>
> At 07:32 PM 7/28/2012, Louise Power wrote:
> > >Some external sources that can cause carbon monoxide poisoning
> > include cigarette smoke, gas water heaters, charcoal grills, boats
> > with engine, diesel or gasoline powered generators, and spray paints.
>
> Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
> Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've breathed pure nitrogen, oxygen, nitrous oxide... and NOTHING had
the same effect as near straight carbon dioxide. (I used to
experiment on myself until they told me it might end up like this!)
You can't inhale pure CO2 - somehow your lungs reflexively signal your
diaphragm to expel. With nitrogen or nitrous oxide, you'd eventually
pass out while breathing and you'd die for lack of oxygen.
With CO2, I believe you'd wretch and choke to death if you were forced
to breathe high concentrations. It isn't poison, Wikipedia bears that out :-)
but poisonous gas might be a more pleasant 'way to go'.
-WaV
On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Louise Power <power_lou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I went back and looked. Could have just been a typo. Every other place it
> said dioxide.
>
>> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 21:42:26 -0400
>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>> From: mmin...@caver.net
>> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Carbon Dioxide
>
>>
>> Weird that the source Louise cited brought up cabon
>> _mon_oxide poisoning. That is irrelevant and _much_ worse. Carbon
>> monoxide binds very strongly to hemoglobin, similarly to cyanide and
>> unlike carbon dioxide and oxygen, which bind quite reversibly. CO
>> very quickly becomes toxic, whereas CO2 is relatively benign, causing
>> illness but not fatality unless high levels are maintained for a
>> prolonged period.
>> Fortunately carbon monoxide is relatively rare in the
>> natural world and comes mainly from incomplete combustion. Simple
>> confinement will not likely produce CO poisoning unless the
>> atmosphere is already contaminated.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> At 07:32 PM 7/28/2012, Louise Power wrote:
>> > >Some external sources that can cause carbon monoxide poisoning
>> > include cigarette smoke, gas water heaters, charcoal grills, boats
>> > with engine, diesel or gasoline powered generators, and spray paints.
>>
>> Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
>> Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
El domingo, 29 de julio de 2012, Don Cooper escribió:
> It is in fact the accumulation of CO2 in your body and not the lack of
> oxygen that causes the "gasp reflex"
>
> You can't inhale pure CO2 - somehow your lungs reflexively signal your
> diaphragm to expel.
>
> With CO2, I believe you'd wretch and choke to death if you were forced
> to breathe high concentrations. It isn't poison, Wikipedia bears that out
> :-)
> but poisonous gas might be a more pleasant 'way to go'.
>
> -WaV
>
> On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Louise Power
> <power_lou...@hotmail.com<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> > I went back and looked. Could have just been a typo. Every other place it
> > said dioxide.
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 21:42:26 -0400
> >> To: texascavers@texascavers.com <javascript:;>
> >> From: mmin...@caver.net <javascript:;>
> >> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Carbon Dioxide
> >
> >>
> >> Weird that the source Louise cited brought up cabon
> >> _mon_oxide poisoning. That is irrelevant and _much_ worse. Carbon
> >> monoxide binds very strongly to hemoglobin, similarly to cyanide and
> >> unlike carbon dioxide and oxygen, which bind quite reversibly. CO
> >> very quickly becomes toxic, whereas CO2 is relatively benign, causing
> >> illness but not fatality unless high levels are maintained for a
> >> prolonged period.
> >> Fortunately carbon monoxide is relatively rare in the
> >> natural world and comes mainly from incomplete combustion. Simple
> >> confinement will not likely produce CO poisoning unless the
> >> atmosphere is already contaminated.
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> At 07:32 PM 7/28/2012, Louise Power wrote:
> >> > >Some external sources that can cause carbon monoxide poisoning
> >> > include cigarette smoke, gas water heaters, charcoal grills, boats
> >> > with engine, diesel or gasoline powered generators, and spray paints.
> >>
> >> Please reply to mmin...@caver.net <javascript:;>
> >> Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org <javascript:;>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >> texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com<javascript:;>
> >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> >> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com<javascript:;>
> >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Every caver in Texas and most high school students know that inhaling really
high carbon dioxide levels are not good for you.
But carbon dioxide is not some evil gas, it's naturally produced in your body
as part of oxidation of organic compounds you consume. The problems arise when
you can't get rid of it and that starts to interfere with your biochemical
reactions by acidifying your system. Thankfully it is carbon dioxide level that
we are physiologically sensing - hence you will feel worse than horrible before
your physiology is in danger.
Rafal Kedzierski
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 11:04:56 -0400
From: wdwal...@windstream.net
To: rafal...@hotmail.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
Rafal,
To much carbon dioxide will kill. A friend and I were surveying a
cave that floods drastically years ago. As we surveyed I began to
develop a headache and to feel nauseous. Finally my carbide light
began to misbehave, so for some reason, I climbed up higher to
change carbide. The lamp flame steadied some. I looked down at my
survey partner I noticed that he was just fumbling with his lamp.
At this point I realized what was wrong - high carbon dioxide
content. I yelled at him to climb up to my level. He did. After he
changed carbide, we left. Once out of the cave the headache and
nausea went away. I never did complete the survey and never did go
back to that cave.
The CO2 was probably from the huge piles of rotting
leaves throughout the cave.
CO2 levels:
OSHA safe level - 0.5%
Max. short term exposure limit (OSHA) - 1.5%
Start to get a headache - 2%
Breathing twice normal rate - 3%
Bill Walden
NSS 11573
On 07/27/2012 10:32 PM, rafal kedzierski wrote:
Carbon dioxide? It's not that bad for you, it's in carbonated
drinks, air we exhale, it's even occasionally found in caves. In
fact as long as you electron transport chain gives electrons to
acceptor like oxygen as you make carbon dioxide, you can kick it
and call yourself alive.
Rafal Kedzierski
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 21:24:03 -0500
From: skese...@gmail.com
To: power_lou...@hotmail.com
CC: nmca...@comcast.net; gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org;
bmixon...@austin.rr.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
I don't know what happened CC but I've worked construction
all my adult life ,I couldn't count the times our work
envirment became compromised because of toxic fumes, just
like high co2 levels you're no wimp for haulin A out of there
and even getting checked out.My pop was chem engineer for Dow
, he told me in his latter years that stuff is bad for you.
On Wednesday, July 25, 2012, Louise Power wrote:
My personal experience has been that folks who
don't work in industry or in a government agency
which has a hazmat specialist on board have
never heard of an MSDS. Wouldn't know what it
meant if they had one. At BLM, we're required to
take hazmat training once/year. It's especially
critical here in Oregon and other states where
meth labs and dumps are so prominent on public
lands.
:-( Louise
There is an almost sure prevention
for this form of stupidity. It is
called the M.S.D.S., the Material
Safety Data Sheet. I is supposed to be
read BEFORE you open the container or
apply the stuff!
E ^v^
From: Louise Power
Sent: Wednesday, July
25, 2012 11:24 AM
To: Geary Schindel
; Bill Mixon
; Texas Cavers
Subject: RE:
[Texascavers] fumes in CC
visitor center
Wait!!! You mean I
sent them all my canaries for
nothing?! After all, Gary, it's
really not a mine anymore.
> From: gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
> To: bmixon...@austin.rr.com;
texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012
10:20:57 -0500
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers]
fumes in CC visitor center
>
> Folks,
>
> I agree with Bill, when using
solvent based paints (or for that
matter, any hazards material) in a
confined space, it is much
quicker, easier and cheaper to use
humans to determine if you've
exceeded any health related
chemical thresholds verses real
time air monitoring or canaries.
Most of the time, most folks
become violently ill before they
actually die. While this is not
the recommended method by the
American Council of Governmental
Industrial Hygienists, it seems to
be the technique most often used
by industry. When employees get
sick, it is probably time to give
them at least a 15 minute break.
You don't have to worry about long
term exposures such as an
increased risk of lung or blood
cancers as those folks probably
won't be working for you in 20
years anyway so not your problem.
>
> Matter of fact, with
substances such as asbestos or
silica dust, by allowing humans in
a contaminated work area without
respirators, they actually help
clean the air as the lungs retain
some of the asbestos fibers or
silica (good for the room, bad for
the lungs). If you would like to
see an excellent presentation on
silicoses and the Hawks Nest
Tunnel in West Virginia and the
largest industrial accident in US
History, you may want to visit
Helen Lang's web page
http://www.geo.wvu.edu/~lang/Geol484/HN-shorter.pdf
>
> I'm sure that the contractor
read and followed all of the
warning labels and safety
precautions for use of the product
and that it was really safe for
use in a confined environment and
that the manufacturers warning
about using the product only in
well ventilated areas was just to
protect them from lawsuits.
>
> Using canaries for air
monitoring has fallen out of favor
in recent years as they are cute
and folks get attached to them. In
addition, there are a number of
powerful animal rights groups that
help protect their interests
(wonder how that would work for
humans). The correct method would
be to develop a health and safety
plan that would require proper
environmental controls such as
ventilation, selecting appropriate
chemicals, using protective
equipment, closing down the
facility, and air monitoring.
However, that all costs time and
money.
>
> G
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mixon Bill
[mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25,
2012 9:40 AM
> To: Cavers Texas
> Subject: [Texascavers] fumes
in CC visitor center
>
> The fact that a few staff
"had to" be taken to hospital does
not prove that there was any real
danger or there were any real inju
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--- Begin Message ---
Howdy Caver,
You are cordially invited to attend the Underground Texas Grotto meeting.
UT Grotto meeting on Wednesday August 1, 2012 from 7:45 P.M. - 9:00 P.M.
University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall (156 West 24th Street,
Austin TX 78712) http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html
Andrea Croskrey will present the Program for the evening as Re-exploration
at Three Fingers Cave. Andrea and friends hiked the New Mexico canyon to
reach this highly decorated cave with cool vertical drops. Come check out
the photos that she collected from the 63rd deepest cave. Join the inner
sanctum of Austin Texas Cavers and visit with friends of the extended caver
community.
For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see
www.utgrotto.org
Officer contact, trip reports, event calendar, and new caver training links
to beginner trips or vertical rope training are available.
Before the meeting, take advantage of Sao Paulo www.saopaulos.net for
happy hour specials. This area is the best place to park and meet folks
walking over to the meeting. Then after the official meeting, we continue
with the decades long tradition to reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall
tales of caving at Posse East. www.posse-east.com
The UT Grotto needs you, the caver with photos and a story to share about
your adventures, scientific research, or something else really cool. Contact
me.
Sincerely,
Gary Franklin
UT Grotto Vice Chair & Program Organizer
512-585-6057
v...@utgrotto.org
Andrea Croskrey<quartzit...@hotmail.com>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Artifacts from a shelter cave in South Africa have pushed
back the date of the Later Stone Age by 20,000 years.
<http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112666399/later-stone-age-south-africa-pnas/>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/342701/title/Sticks,_stones,_and_bones_reveal_emergence_of_a_hunter-gatherer_culture>
Mark
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
