texascavers Digest 28 Jul 2012 23:32:11 -0000 Issue 1599
Topics (messages 20426 through 20430):
Re: fumes in CC visitor center
20426 by: rafal kedzierski
20427 by: Bill Walden
Carbon Dioxide
20428 by: Mark Minton
20429 by: George D. Nincehelser
20430 by: Louise Power
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--- Begin Message ---
Carbon dioxide? It's not that bad for you, it's in carbonated drinks, air we
exhale, it's even occasionally found in caves. In fact as long as you electron
transport chain gives electrons to acceptor like oxygen as you make carbon
dioxide, you can kick it and call yourself alive.
Rafal Kedzierski
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 21:24:03 -0500
From: skese...@gmail.com
To: power_lou...@hotmail.com
CC: nmca...@comcast.net; gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org; bmixon...@austin.rr.com;
texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
I don't know what happened CC but I've worked construction all my adult life
,I couldn't count the times our work envirment became compromised because of
toxic fumes, just like high co2 levels you're no wimp for haulin A out of there
and even getting checked out.My pop was chem engineer for Dow , he told me in
his latter years that stuff is bad for you.
On Wednesday, July 25, 2012, Louise Power wrote:
My personal experience has been that folks who don't work in industry or in a
government agency which has a hazmat specialist on board have never heard of an
MSDS. Wouldn't know what it meant if they had one. At BLM, we're required to
take hazmat training once/year. It's especially critical here in Oregon and
other states where meth labs and dumps are so prominent on public lands.
:-( Louise
There is an almost sure prevention for this form of stupidity. It is called
the M.S.D.S., the Material Safety Data Sheet. I is supposed to be read BEFORE
you open the container or apply the stuff!
E ^v^
From: Louise Power
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:24 AM
To: Geary Schindel ; Bill
Mixon ; Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor
center
Wait!!! You mean I sent them all my canaries for nothing?!
After all, Gary, it's really not a mine anymore.
> From:
gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
> To: bmixon...@austin.rr.com;
texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:20:57
-0500
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
>
> Folks,
>
> I agree with Bill, when using solvent based
paints (or for that matter, any hazards material) in a confined space, it is
much quicker, easier and cheaper to use humans to determine if you've exceeded
any health related chemical thresholds verses real time air monitoring or
canaries. Most of the time, most folks become violently ill before they
actually
die. While this is not the recommended method by the American Council of
Governmental Industrial Hygienists, it seems to be the technique most often
used
by industry. When employees get sick, it is probably time to give them at least
a 15 minute break. You don't have to worry about long term exposures such as an
increased risk of lung or blood cancers as those folks probably won't be
working
for you in 20 years anyway so not your problem.
>
> Matter of fact,
with substances such as asbestos or silica dust, by allowing humans in a
contaminated work area without respirators, they actually help clean the air as
the lungs retain some of the asbestos fibers or silica (good for the room, bad
for the lungs). If you would like to see an excellent presentation on silicoses
and the Hawks Nest Tunnel in West Virginia and the largest industrial accident
in US History, you may want to visit Helen Lang's web page
http://www.geo.wvu.edu/~lang/Geol484/HN-shorter.pdf
>
> I'm sure
that the contractor read and followed all of the warning labels and safety
precautions for use of the product and that it was really safe for use in a
confined environment and that the manufacturers warning about using the product
only in well ventilated areas was just to protect them from lawsuits.
>
> Using canaries for air monitoring has fallen out of favor in recent
years as they are cute and folks get attached to them. In addition, there are a
number of powerful animal rights groups that help protect their interests
(wonder how that would work for humans). The correct method would be to develop
a health and safety plan that would require proper environmental controls such
as ventilation, selecting appropriate chemicals, using protective equipment,
closing down the facility, and air monitoring. However, that all costs time and
money.
>
> G
>
>
>
>
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Mixon Bill
[mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:40
AM
> To: Cavers Texas
> Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor
center
>
> The fact that a few staff "had to" be taken to hospital
does not prove that there was any real danger or there were any real inju
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rafal,
To much carbon dioxide will kill. A friend and I were surveying a cave
that floods drastically years ago. As we surveyed I began to develop a
headache and to feel nauseous. Finally my carbide light began to
misbehave, so for some reason, I climbed up higher to change carbide.
The lamp flame steadied some. I looked down at my survey partner I
noticed that he was just fumbling with his lamp. At this point I
realized what was wrong - high carbon dioxide content. I yelled at him
to climb up to my level. He did. After he changed carbide, we left. Once
out of the cave the headache and nausea went away. I never did complete
the survey and never did go back to that cave.
The CO_2 was probably from the huge piles of rotting leaves throughout
the cave.
CO_2 levels:
OSHA safe level - 0.5%
Max. short term exposure limit (OSHA) - 1.5%
Start to get a headache - 2%
Breathing twice normal rate - 3%
Bill Walden
NSS 11573
On 07/27/2012 10:32 PM, rafal kedzierski wrote:
Carbon dioxide? It's not that bad for you, it's in carbonated drinks,
air we exhale, it's even occasionally found in caves. In fact as long
as you electron transport chain gives electrons to acceptor like
oxygen as you make carbon dioxide, you can kick it and call yourself
alive.
Rafal Kedzierski
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 21:24:03 -0500
From: skese...@gmail.com
To: power_lou...@hotmail.com
CC: nmca...@comcast.net; gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org;
bmixon...@austin.rr.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
I don't know what happened CC but I've worked construction all my
adult life ,I couldn't count the times our work envirment became
compromised because of toxic fumes, just like high co2 levels you're
no wimp for haulin A out of there and even getting checked out.My pop
was chem engineer for Dow , he told me in his latter years that stuff
is bad for you.
On Wednesday, July 25, 2012, Louise Power wrote:
My personal experience has been that folks who don't work in
industry or in a government agency which has a hazmat specialist
on board have never heard of an MSDS. Wouldn't know what it meant
if they had one. At BLM, we're required to take hazmat training
once/year. It's especially critical here in Oregon and other
states where meth labs and dumps are so prominent on public lands.
:-( Louise
There is an almost sure prevention for this form of stupidity. It
is called the M.S.D.S., the Material Safety Data Sheet. I is
supposed to be read BEFORE you open the container or apply the stuff!
E ^v^
*From:* Louise Power
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:24 AM
*To:* Geary Schindel ; Bill Mixon ; Texas Cavers
*Subject:* RE: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
Wait!!! You mean I sent them all my canaries for nothing?! After
all, Gary, it's really not a mine anymore.
> From: gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
> To: bmixon...@austin.rr.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:20:57 -0500
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
>
> Folks,
>
> I agree with Bill, when using solvent based paints (or for that
matter, any hazards material) in a confined space, it is much
quicker, easier and cheaper to use humans to determine if you've
exceeded any health related chemical thresholds verses real time
air monitoring or canaries. Most of the time, most folks become
violently ill before they actually die. While this is not the
recommended method by the American Council of Governmental
Industrial Hygienists, it seems to be the technique most often
used by industry. When employees get sick, it is probably time to
give them at least a 15 minute break. You don't have to worry
about long term exposures such as an increased risk of lung or
blood cancers as those folks probably won't be working for you in
20 years anyway so not your problem.
>
> Matter of fact, with substances such as asbestos or silica dust,
by allowing humans in a contaminated work area without
respirators, they actually help clean the air as the lungs retain
some of the asbestos fibers or silica (good for the room, bad for
the lungs). If you would like to see an excellent presentation on
silicoses and the Hawks Nest Tunnel in West Virginia and the
largest industrial accident in US History, you may want to visit
Helen Lang's web page
http://www.geo.wvu.edu/~lang/Geol484/HN-shorter.pdf
<http://www.geo.wvu.edu/%7Elang/Geol484/HN-shorter.pdf>
>
> I'm sure that the contractor read and followed all of the
warning labels and safety precautions for use of the product and
that it was really safe for use in a confined environment and that
the manufacturers warning about using the product only in well
ventilated areas was just to protect them from lawsuits.
>
> Using canaries for air monitoring has fallen out of favor in
recent years as they are cute and folks get attached to them. In
addition, there are a number of powerful animal rights groups that
help protect their interests (wonder how that would work for
humans). The correct method would be to develop a health and
safety plan that would require proper environmental controls such
as ventilation, selecting appropriate chemicals, using protective
equipment, closing down the facility, and air monitoring. However,
that all costs time and money.
>
> G
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:40 AM
> To: Cavers Texas
> Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
>
> The fact that a few staff "had to" be taken to hospital does not
prove that there was any real danger or there were any real inju
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problem with carbon dioxide is not that it is toxic per
se, but that in high enough concentration in the atmosphere it
prevents the lungs from off-gassing CO2 from your body to make room
for more oxygen. You essentially suffocate because you run out of
oxygen, not because the carbon dioxide kills you directly. Of course
in the end, what difference does it make? ;-)
Mark
At 11:04 AM 7/28/2012, Bill Walden wrote:
Rafal,
To much carbon dioxide will kill. A friend and I were surveying a
cave that floods drastically years ago. As we surveyed I began to
develop a headache and to feel nauseous. Finally my carbide light
began to misbehave, so for some reason, I climbed up higher to
change carbide. The lamp flame steadied some. I looked down at my
survey partner I noticed that he was just fumbling with his lamp. At
this point I realized what was wrong - high carbon dioxide content.
I yelled at him to climb up to my level. He did. After he changed
carbide, we left. Once out of the cave the headache and nausea went
away. I never did complete the survey and never did go back to that cave.
The CO2 was probably from the huge piles of rotting leaves
throughout the cave.
CO2 levels:
OSHA safe level - 0.5%
Max. short term exposure limit (OSHA) - 1.5%
Start to get a headache - 2%
Breathing twice normal rate - 3%
Bill Walden
NSS 11573
On 07/27/2012 10:32 PM, rafal kedzierski wrote:
Carbon dioxide? It's not that bad for you, it's in carbonated
drinks, air we exhale, it's even occasionally found in caves. In
fact as long as you electron transport chain gives electrons to
acceptor like oxygen as you make carbon dioxide, you can kick it
and call yourself alive.
Rafal Kedzierski
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 21:24:03 -0500
From: skese...@gmail.com
To: power_lou...@hotmail.com
CC: nmca...@comcast.net; gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org;
bmixon...@austin.rr.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
I don't know what happened CC but I've worked construction all my
adult life ,I couldn't count the times our work envirment became
compromised because of toxic fumes, just like high co2 levels
you're no wimp for haulin A out of there and even getting checked
out.My pop was chem engineer for Dow , he told me in his latter
years that stuff is bad for you.
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's more to it than that. CO2 has some regulatory control over your
breathing (e.g. breathing in a paper bag to stop hyperventilation). It
also impacts the pH of your blood which can really screw up your day.
There may be more, but those are two things I remember from biology class.
Too much of anything can be toxic. Even di-hydrogen monoxide.
George
On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net> wrote:
> The problem with carbon dioxide is not that it is toxic per se,
> but that in high enough concentration in the atmosphere it prevents the
> lungs from off-gassing CO2 from your body to make room for more oxygen.
> You essentially suffocate because you run out of oxygen, not because the
> carbon dioxide kills you directly. Of course in the end, what difference
> does it make? ;-)
>
> Mark
>
> At 11:04 AM 7/28/2012, Bill Walden wrote:
>
>> Rafal,
>>
>> To much carbon dioxide will kill. A friend and I were surveying a cave
>> that floods drastically years ago. As we surveyed I began to develop a
>> headache and to feel nauseous. Finally my carbide light began to misbehave,
>> so for some reason, I climbed up higher to change carbide. The lamp flame
>> steadied some. I looked down at my survey partner I noticed that he was
>> just fumbling with his lamp. At this point I realized what was wrong - high
>> carbon dioxide content. I yelled at him to climb up to my level. He did.
>> After he changed carbide, we left. Once out of the cave the headache and
>> nausea went away. I never did complete the survey and never did go back to
>> that cave.
>>
>> The CO2 was probably from the huge piles of rotting leaves throughout the
>> cave.
>>
>> CO2 levels:
>>
>> OSHA safe level - 0.5%
>> Max. short term exposure limit (OSHA) - 1.5%
>> Start to get a headache - 2%
>> Breathing twice normal rate - 3%
>>
>> Bill Walden
>> NSS 11573
>>
>> On 07/27/2012 10:32 PM, rafal kedzierski wrote:
>>
>>> Carbon dioxide? It's not that bad for you, it's in carbonated drinks,
>>> air we exhale, it's even occasionally found in caves. In fact as long as
>>> you electron transport chain gives electrons to acceptor like oxygen as you
>>> make carbon dioxide, you can kick it and call yourself alive.
>>>
>>> Rafal Kedzierski
>>>
>>> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 21:24:03 -0500
>>> From: skese...@gmail.com
>>> To: power_lou...@hotmail.com
>>> CC: nmca...@comcast.net; gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org;
>>> bmixon...@austin.rr.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
>>> Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
>>>
>>> I don't know what happened CC but I've worked construction all my adult
>>> life ,I couldn't count the times our work envirment became compromised
>>> because of toxic fumes, just like high co2 levels you're no wimp for
>>> haulin A out of there and even getting checked out.My pop was chem engineer
>>> for Dow , he told me in his latter years that stuff is bad for you.
>>>
>>
>> Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
>> Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you come to a cave with a skull-and-crossbones posted at the entrance,
carbon dioxide is probably why. Don't go in without breathing apparatus. I know
of one at least one right near the highway to Bustamente. If I recall
correctly, they have sort of mazes at or near the entrances that prohibit the
free flow of air. Here's a very simple overview of carbon dioxide poisoning:
Carbon Dioxide PoisoningWhat is carbon dioxide poisoning? What are its causes
and symptoms? Read on to know how to identify if a person is suffering from it
and how to treat him...Carbon dioxide is a natural by-product of the various
reactions that take place inside our body. Exposure to high levels of the gas
can increase its amount in the blood. The result is carbon dioxide poisoning
which is also referred to as hypercapnia orhypercarbia. In our blood, carbon
dioxide is in equilibrium with bicarbonates. Hence, blood tests in case of
hypercapnia may show increased levels of bicarbonates as well.
Causes
Carbon dioxide is being produced continuously by the cells of our body.
Inability of the body in expelling this gas or exposure to air having high
concentrations of the gas, leads to carbon dioxide poisoning.Re-breathing
exhaled air due to conditions like sleeping in air tight tents or sleeping with
heads covered in blankets can cause hypercapnia.Working in confined areas that
have poor air circulation as in mines, holds of ships, or underground tunnels
and shafts may also raise levels of carbon dioxide in the blood.Breathing in
areas with high levels of the gas, such as areas close to a volcano makes one
susceptible to such health problems.Scuba divers are particularly at risk. If
carbon dioxide is not properly filtered out or in case their breathing
equipment malfunctions, divers can suffer from high levels of the gas in
blood.Some external sources that can cause carbon monoxide poisoning include
cigarette smoke, gas water heaters, charcoal grills, boats with engine, diesel
or gasoline powered generators, and spray paints.Besides these external
conditions, medical conditions like lung diseases, respiratory problems, and
neuromuscular disorder can also trigger carbon dioxide poisoning.
Symptoms
Mild poisoning symptoms are:Muscle twitchingReduced neural activityFlushed
skinHigh blood pressureAs the severity of hypercapnia increases, the following
symptoms may be experienced:HeadacheLethargyElevated rate of cardiac
outputIrregular heartbeatPanicConvulsionsChest
painHallucinationsVomitingStomach painSeizuresMemory problemsChanges in
visionUnconsciousnessEventually death
Treatment
'Prevention is better than cure'. Be alert if working in an environment with
high levels of carbon dioxide in the air or if suffering from any medical
condition that may make a person susceptible to carbon dioxide poisoning.
Knowing the cause will help in the treatment. Be conversant with the symptoms.
In case a person is suffering from hypercapnia take him out to an environment
where there is proper circulation of air. Individuals exposed to mild levels of
carbon dioxide in air should recover fully on their own. However, if it is a
case of severe toxicity, caused due to exposure to high levels of the gas, then
it is best to call in an ambulance. It is important to ensure that the air
passage of the patient is clear of any blockage. In case one has access to
continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP), put the mask on the patient's
mouth. This helps in restoring normal breathing by providing mechanical
ventilation in case the patient's breathing is compromised. Medications to
improve lung functions may also help.
Ensure that the patient has enough amount of oxygen to breathe. Although such
conditions are ideally provided in hospitals, portable oxygen tents or
canisters of breathable oxygen can also be of help. Emergency supportive care,
such as endotracheal intubation and hemodynamic support can also be
administered. However, such steps are taken only under the supervision of
healthcare professionals. People may also suffer from hypercapnia in case they
are working at high altitudes. In such a case, move the patient to a lower
altitude where the air has higher levels of oxygen in the atmosphere. The
amounts of acid and oxygen in the blood of a patient should be checked
regularly to determine the level of carbon dioxide in blood.
People working in conditions that do not have proper air circulation need to be
aware of carbon dioxide poisoning and its symptoms. Ensure whatever initial
help you can provide to the patient. Even if the patient recovers, it is always
advisable to take him to the physician and follow the levels of the gas in
blood through proper tests.By Debopriya Bose
Last Updated: 12/26/2011
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:46:20 -0500
From: george.nincehel...@gmail.com
To: mmin...@caver.net
CC: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Carbon Dioxide
There's more to it than that. CO2 has some regulatory control over your
breathing (e.g. breathing in a paper bag to stop hyperventilation). It also
impacts the pH of your blood which can really screw up your day.
There may be more, but those are two things I remember from biology class.
Too much of anything can be toxic. Even di-hydrogen monoxide.
George
On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net> wrote:
The problem with carbon dioxide is not that it is toxic per se, but
that in high enough concentration in the atmosphere it prevents the lungs from
off-gassing CO2 from your body to make room for more oxygen. You essentially
suffocate because you run out of oxygen, not because the carbon dioxide kills
you directly. Of course in the end, what difference does it make? ;-)
Mark
At 11:04 AM 7/28/2012, Bill Walden wrote:
Rafal,
To much carbon dioxide will kill. A friend and I were surveying a cave that
floods drastically years ago. As we surveyed I began to develop a headache and
to feel nauseous. Finally my carbide light began to misbehave, so for some
reason, I climbed up higher to change carbide. The lamp flame steadied some. I
looked down at my survey partner I noticed that he was just fumbling with his
lamp. At this point I realized what was wrong - high carbon dioxide content. I
yelled at him to climb up to my level. He did. After he changed carbide, we
left. Once out of the cave the headache and nausea went away. I never did
complete the survey and never did go back to that cave.
The CO2 was probably from the huge piles of rotting leaves throughout the cave.
CO2 levels:
OSHA safe level - 0.5%
Max. short term exposure limit (OSHA) - 1.5%
Start to get a headache - 2%
Breathing twice normal rate - 3%
Bill Walden
NSS 11573
On 07/27/2012 10:32 PM, rafal kedzierski wrote:
Carbon dioxide? It's not that bad for you, it's in carbonated drinks, air we
exhale, it's even occasionally found in caves. In fact as long as you electron
transport chain gives electrons to acceptor like oxygen as you make carbon
dioxide, you can kick it and call yourself alive.
Rafal Kedzierski
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 21:24:03 -0500
From: skese...@gmail.com
To: power_lou...@hotmail.com
CC: nmca...@comcast.net; gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org; bmixon...@austin.rr.com;
texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] fumes in CC visitor center
I don't know what happened CC but I've worked construction all my adult life
,I couldn't count the times our work envirment became compromised because of
toxic fumes, just like high co2 levels you're no wimp for haulin A out of there
and even getting checked out.My pop was chem engineer for Dow , he told me in
his latter years that stuff is bad for you.
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
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Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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