texascavers Digest 15 Feb 2011 12:34:10 -0000 Issue 1248

Tue, 15 Feb 2011 04:34:33 -0800 (PST) 

texascavers Digest 15 Feb 2011 12:34:10 -0000 Issue 1248

Topics (messages 17171 through 17178):

Re: Mystery at Jester Cave!!!
        17171 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
        17175 by: Nico Escamilla

Job opportunity (Postdoc) in Panama Canal
        17172 by: caverarch

Re: Bretz's flood
        17173 by: Diana Tomchick
        17176 by: Gill Edigar
        17177 by: David Wendeborn
        17178 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net

Re: fake Petzl gear
        17174 by: David Ochel

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message --- 
FWIW, I thought it was (and still is) funny.

 

Mark

 

 

From: Fritz Holt [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 1:26 PM
To: '[email protected]'; Alman, Mark @ SSG - WSG - EOS; 
[email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Mystery at Jester Cave!!!

 

Bill,

 

Might you have protégées ?

 

Fritz

 

________________________________

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 1:13 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Mystery at Jester Cave!!!

 

I let Mark know that I did not rock him. No, I have retired from that activity. 
Too many people get their feelings hurt. 

I suggested to Mark that it might well have been his daughter and 
daughter-in-law that did it. Now he vows to get them

back. 

 

Bill 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark.Alman <[email protected]>
To: texascavers <[email protected]>
Cc: speleosteele <[email protected]>; Diana Tomchick 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, Feb 14, 2011 12:06 pm
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Mystery at Jester Cave!!!

 

Part of the mystery has been solved and Bill has been absolved and eliminated 
as a suspect.

 

 

I know suspect the two lovely ladies that accompanied me this weekend as being 
the suspects and they will be dealt with accordingly.

 

 

Now, I know why they didn't sit near us Saturday night, Bill!

 

 

(I wonder where they got the idea from! Hmmm.)

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

From: Alman, Mark @ SSG - WSG - EOS 
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 11:35 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> 
Subject: [Texascavers] Mystery at Jester Cave!!!

 

 

 

Went caving this past weekend with Bill Steele and Diane Tomchick at Jester 
Cave in SW OK this past weekend and had a blast!

 

We were joined by my lovely daughter-in-law, Brandi Alman and her friend 
Jennifer, the SMU Outdoor club, several DFW Grotto cavers, and a Boy Scout 
Troop.

 

 

A great, wet, muddy, cold time was had by all and we enjoyed the camaraderie 
and a TON of hibernating bats were observed, with no WNS evident!

 

 

A great mystery has ensued, however and Sherlock Holmes may need to be called 
in!

 

 

 

While unloading my gear yesterday and disinfecting it and what not, I was 
shocked to find not one, but, two rather sizeable rocks in my cave pack!

 

 

How did they get there and what twisted and demented soul could possibly 
perform this dastardly act of geological treachery upon an innocent, balding 51 
YO, such as myself?!

 

 

 

Your help in apprehending this deviant and helping to solve this mystery will 
help make the world a safer place and allow us to eradicate, once and for all,  
the act of rocking packs!

 

 

 

Thanks for your support!

 

 

 

 

(Tongue firmly placed in cheek and the newest proud member of the "I've Been 
Rocked" Club)     Mark

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Bill rocked me once but I did not get mad, I got even.. well, the term even
falls a little short
see video <http://www.youtube.com/user/mannovsteele#p/u/24/F4oNz8XGQNQ>

<http://www.youtube.com/user/mannovsteele#p/u/24/F4oNz8XGQNQ>but yeah,
rocking people is not something just about anyone can do, in fact I
discourage it because indeed people's feelings can easily get hurt..

a very retired pack rocker
Nico

On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 1:53 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

>  FWIW, I thought it was (and still is) funny.
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Fritz Holt [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2011 1:26 PM
> *To:* '[email protected]'; Alman, Mark @ SSG - WSG - EOS;
> [email protected]
>
> *Subject:* RE: [Texascavers] Mystery at Jester Cave!!!
>
>
>
> Bill,
>
>
>
> Might you have protégées ?
>
>
>
> Fritz
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2011 1:13 PM
> *To:* [email protected]; [email protected]
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Mystery at Jester Cave!!!
>
>
>
> I let Mark know that I did not rock him. No, I have retired from that
> activity. Too many people get their feelings hurt.
>
> I suggested to Mark that it might well have been his daughter and
> daughter-in-law that did it. Now he vows to get them
>
> back.
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark.Alman <[email protected]>
> To: texascavers <[email protected]>
> Cc: speleosteele <[email protected]>; Diana Tomchick <
> [email protected]>
> Sent: Mon, Feb 14, 2011 12:06 pm
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Mystery at Jester Cave!!!
>
>
>
> Part of the mystery has been solved and Bill has been absolved and
> eliminated as a suspect.
>
>
>
>
>
> I know suspect the two lovely ladies that accompanied me this weekend as
> being the suspects and they will be dealt with accordingly.
>
>
>
>
>
> Now, I know why they didn’t sit near us Saturday night, Bill!
>
>
>
>
>
> (I wonder where they got the idea from! Hmmm.)
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Alman, Mark @ SSG - WSG - EOS
> *Sent:* Monday, February 14, 2011 11:35 AM
> *To:* *[email protected]* <[email protected]>
> *Subject:* [Texascavers] Mystery at Jester Cave!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Went caving this past weekend with *Bill Steele* and Diane Tomchick at
> Jester Cave in SW OK this past weekend and had a blast!
>
>
>
> We were joined by my lovely daughter-in-law, Brandi Alman and her friend
> Jennifer, the SMU Outdoor club, several DFW Grotto cavers, and a Boy Scout
> Troop.
>
>
>
>
>
> A great, wet, muddy, cold time was had by all and we enjoyed the
> camaraderie and a TON of hibernating bats were observed, with no WNS
> evident!
>
>
>
>
>
> A great mystery has ensued, however and Sherlock Holmes may need to be
> called in!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> While unloading my gear yesterday and disinfecting it and what not, I was
> shocked to find not one, but, two rather sizeable rocks in my cave pack!
>
>
>
>
>
> How did they get there and what twisted and demented soul could possibly
> perform this dastardly act of geological treachery upon an innocent, balding
> 51 YO, such as myself?!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your help in apprehending this deviant and helping to solve this mystery
> will help make the world a safer place and allow us to eradicate, once and
> for all,  the act of rocking packs!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for your support!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (Tongue firmly placed in cheek and the newest proud member of the “I’ve
> Been Rocked” Club)     Mark
>
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
A friend passed this on to me:


http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/panama-pire/op_postdoc.htm

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I first heard of the Glacial Lake Missoula flood in my Physical Geology class 
at Washington State University. The most famous coulee that resulted from the 
flood was of course the one that was filled with water as a result of the Grand 
Coulee Dam. It was always a treat to hear about interesting geologic formations 
(and the state of Washington is full of them), then go on a short road trip to 
see them firsthand.

For photos of the current landscape and an interesting graphic outlining the 
extent of the flooding, see this article from the Washington State University 
alumni magazine and also the Ice Age Floods Institute web site.

http://wsm.wsu.edu/s/index.php?id=472

http://www.iafi.org/

Diana

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)



On Feb 13, 2011, at 9:28 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:

> The cave connection of this second item from the "Windy City Speleonews" is 
> just J Harlen Bretz. Yes, no period after the J, which was his full name. I 
> had lunch with him when he was 94 at his house, Boulderstrewn, in Homewood, 
> Illinois. I happened to drive by, on the way to the NSS convention in 
> Bellingham, Washington, a few years ago, the Dry Falls three miles wide, 
> where the state of Washington has a picnic area and displays. One 
> non-technical source on the falls is 
> http://www.gonorthwest.com/Washington/northeast/Dry_Falls.htm, although links 
> onward from that page are broken. -- Mixon
>
> Cavers know J Harlen Bretz mainly as the author of "Caves of Missouri" and 
> coauthor of "Caves of Illinois," which was published when he was 78 years 
> old. To speleologists, he is best known for his famous 1942 "Journal of 
> Geology" paper on vadose and phreatic features of caves. But his geological 
> studies were by no means restricted to caves, and he is probably best known 
> for (and is most proud of) of series of papers published between 1923 and 
> 1932 in which he described the very peculiar geology of a large area in 
> eastern Washington that he correctly attributed to a catastrophic flood. This 
> theory was considered outrageous at the time, partly, at least, because it 
> was a departure from the only recently ascendent geological dogma of 
> uniformitarianism. But more recent research has fully proved him right.
>
> A lake, called Lake Missoula, was created in western Montana by a dam of 
> glacier ice in northern Idaho. The lake contained some four hundred cubic 
> miles of water that were released suddenly when melting caused the dam to 
> fail. The resulting flood, called the Spokane Flood after the city presently 
> near the upstream end, scoured nearly three thousand square miles down to 
> bedrock and created huge canyons and cataracts, one three miles wide. It 
> deposited gravel bars, some of which contain boulders several feet in 
> diameter, a hundred feet high and a mile long, topped with giant current 
> ripple-marks ten feet high. The water ponded behind the Wallula Gap, through 
> which it poured a thousand feet deep. The peak flow from Lake Missoula, 
> attested to by current ripples fifty feet high, has been calculated at twenty 
> million cubic meters per second. (This is fifteen _cubic miles_ per hour. For 
> comparison purposes, it is one hundred fifty times the mean flow of the 
> Amazon River and ten or twenty times the total average flow of fresh water 
> into the oceans of the world.) In a few days, it was all over.
>
> (Actually, there were a good number of such floods, as the ice dam 
> reestablished itself. Note added 2011.)
> ----------------------------------------
> A fearless man cannot be brave.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: [email protected]
> AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>


________________________________

UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Interesting, Diana. Thanks
--Ediger

On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Diana Tomchick
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I first heard of the Glacial Lake Missoula flood in my Physical Geology class 
> at Washington State University. The most famous coulee that resulted from the 
> flood was of course the one that was filled with water as a result of the 
> Grand Coulee Dam. It was always a treat to hear about interesting geologic 
> formations (and the state of Washington is full of them), then go on a short 
> road trip to see them firsthand.
>
> For photos of the current landscape and an interesting graphic outlining the 
> extent of the flooding, see this article from the Washington State University 
> alumni magazine and also the Ice Age Floods Institute web site.
>
> http://wsm.wsu.edu/s/index.php?id=472
>
> http://www.iafi.org/
>
> Diana
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Associate Professor
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> Department of Biochemistry
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214B
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
> Email: [email protected]
> 214-645-6383 (phone)
> 214-645-6353 (fax)
>
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2011, at 9:28 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:
>
>> The cave connection of this second item from the "Windy City Speleonews" is 
>> just J Harlen Bretz. Yes, no period after the J, which was his full name. I 
>> had lunch with him when he was 94 at his house, Boulderstrewn, in Homewood, 
>> Illinois. I happened to drive by, on the way to the NSS convention in 
>> Bellingham, Washington, a few years ago, the Dry Falls three miles wide, 
>> where the state of Washington has a picnic area and displays. One 
>> non-technical source on the falls is 
>> http://www.gonorthwest.com/Washington/northeast/Dry_Falls.htm, although 
>> links onward from that page are broken. -- Mixon
>>
>> Cavers know J Harlen Bretz mainly as the author of "Caves of Missouri" and 
>> coauthor of "Caves of Illinois," which was published when he was 78 years 
>> old. To speleologists, he is best known for his famous 1942 "Journal of 
>> Geology" paper on vadose and phreatic features of caves. But his geological 
>> studies were by no means restricted to caves, and he is probably best known 
>> for (and is most proud of) of series of papers published between 1923 and 
>> 1932 in which he described the very peculiar geology of a large area in 
>> eastern Washington that he correctly attributed to a catastrophic flood. 
>> This theory was considered outrageous at the time, partly, at least, because 
>> it was a departure from the only recently ascendent geological dogma of 
>> uniformitarianism. But more recent research has fully proved him right.
>>
>> A lake, called Lake Missoula, was created in western Montana by a dam of 
>> glacier ice in northern Idaho. The lake contained some four hundred cubic 
>> miles of water that were released suddenly when melting caused the dam to 
>> fail. The resulting flood, called the Spokane Flood after the city presently 
>> near the upstream end, scoured nearly three thousand square miles down to 
>> bedrock and created huge canyons and cataracts, one three miles wide. It 
>> deposited gravel bars, some of which contain boulders several feet in 
>> diameter, a hundred feet high and a mile long, topped with giant current 
>> ripple-marks ten feet high. The water ponded behind the Wallula Gap, through 
>> which it poured a thousand feet deep. The peak flow from Lake Missoula, 
>> attested to by current ripples fifty feet high, has been calculated at 
>> twenty million cubic meters per second. (This is fifteen _cubic miles_ per 
>> hour. For comparison purposes, it is one hundred fifty times the mean flow 
>> of the Amazon River and ten or twenty times the total average flow of fresh 
>> water into the oceans of the world.) In a few days, it was all over.
>>
>> (Actually, there were a good number of such floods, as the ice dam 
>> reestablished itself. Note added 2011.)
>> ----------------------------------------
>> A fearless man cannot be brave.
>> ----------------------------------------
>> You may "reply" to the address this message
>> came from, but for long-term use, save:
>> Personal: [email protected]
>> AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> UT Southwestern Medical Center
> The future of medicine, today.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
While I was working in the Bitterroot Range in Western Montana this
summer I did some training at the University of Montana in Missoula.
The two mountains bordering the campus, Mount Sentinel and Mount
Jumbo, have strandlines that are still visible indicating the former
water level of Glacial Lake Missoula. There are also large boulders in
the middle of campus that were deposited as a result of the ice dam
bursting.

http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2010/icefloods.htm

As a side note, a local Missoula brewery called the Kettlehouse makes
a Glacial Lake Missoula Amber that is very tasty! They were better
known for their Hemp Porter called Olde Bongwater, however.

http://kettlehouse.com/our-beers

-Drew Wendeborn


On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Gill Edigar <[email protected]> wrote:
> Interesting, Diana. Thanks
> --Ediger
>
> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Diana Tomchick
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I first heard of the Glacial Lake Missoula flood in my Physical Geology 
>> class at Washington State University. The most famous coulee that resulted 
>> from the flood was of course the one that was filled with water as a result 
>> of the Grand Coulee Dam. It was always a treat to hear about interesting 
>> geologic formations (and the state of Washington is full of them), then go 
>> on a short road trip to see them firsthand.
>>
>> For photos of the current landscape and an interesting graphic outlining the 
>> extent of the flooding, see this article from the Washington State 
>> University alumni magazine and also the Ice Age Floods Institute web site.
>>
>> http://wsm.wsu.edu/s/index.php?id=472
>>
>> http://www.iafi.org/
>>
>> Diana
>>
>> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>> Diana R. Tomchick
>> Associate Professor
>> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
>> Department of Biochemistry
>> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
>> Rm. ND10.214B
>> Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
>> Email: [email protected]
>> 214-645-6383 (phone)
>> 214-645-6353 (fax)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2011, at 9:28 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:
>>
>>> The cave connection of this second item from the "Windy City Speleonews" is 
>>> just J Harlen Bretz. Yes, no period after the J, which was his full name. I 
>>> had lunch with him when he was 94 at his house, Boulderstrewn, in Homewood, 
>>> Illinois. I happened to drive by, on the way to the NSS convention in 
>>> Bellingham, Washington, a few years ago, the Dry Falls three miles wide, 
>>> where the state of Washington has a picnic area and displays. One 
>>> non-technical source on the falls is 
>>> http://www.gonorthwest.com/Washington/northeast/Dry_Falls.htm, although 
>>> links onward from that page are broken. -- Mixon
>>>
>>> Cavers know J Harlen Bretz mainly as the author of "Caves of Missouri" and 
>>> coauthor of "Caves of Illinois," which was published when he was 78 years 
>>> old. To speleologists, he is best known for his famous 1942 "Journal of 
>>> Geology" paper on vadose and phreatic features of caves. But his geological 
>>> studies were by no means restricted to caves, and he is probably best known 
>>> for (and is most proud of) of series of papers published between 1923 and 
>>> 1932 in which he described the very peculiar geology of a large area in 
>>> eastern Washington that he correctly attributed to a catastrophic flood. 
>>> This theory was considered outrageous at the time, partly, at least, 
>>> because it was a departure from the only recently ascendent geological 
>>> dogma of uniformitarianism. But more recent research has fully proved him 
>>> right.
>>>
>>> A lake, called Lake Missoula, was created in western Montana by a dam of 
>>> glacier ice in northern Idaho. The lake contained some four hundred cubic 
>>> miles of water that were released suddenly when melting caused the dam to 
>>> fail. The resulting flood, called the Spokane Flood after the city 
>>> presently near the upstream end, scoured nearly three thousand square miles 
>>> down to bedrock and created huge canyons and cataracts, one three miles 
>>> wide. It deposited gravel bars, some of which contain boulders several feet 
>>> in diameter, a hundred feet high and a mile long, topped with giant current 
>>> ripple-marks ten feet high. The water ponded behind the Wallula Gap, 
>>> through which it poured a thousand feet deep. The peak flow from Lake 
>>> Missoula, attested to by current ripples fifty feet high, has been 
>>> calculated at twenty million cubic meters per second. (This is fifteen 
>>> _cubic miles_ per hour. For comparison purposes, it is one hundred fifty 
>>> times the mean flow of the Amazon River and ten or twenty times the total 
>>> average flow of fresh water into the oceans of the world.) In a few days, 
>>> it was all over.
>>>
>>> (Actually, there were a good number of such floods, as the ice dam 
>>> reestablished itself. Note added 2011.)
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>> A fearless man cannot be brave.
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>> You may "reply" to the address this message
>>> came from, but for long-term use, save:
>>> Personal: [email protected]
>>> AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> UT Southwestern Medical Center
>> The future of medicine, today.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think there's a computer generated model of this flood somewhere out there...if I find it, I'll post it.
 
"let me take you to the Channeled Scablands, baby!"
 
T


Feb 14, 2011 07:58:53 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Interesting, Diana. Thanks
--Ediger

On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Diana Tomchick
wrote:
> I first heard of the Glacial Lake Missoula flood in my Physical Geology class at Washington State University. The most famous coulee that resulted from the flood was of course the one that was filled with water as a result of the Grand Coulee Dam. It was always a treat to hear about interesting geologic formations (and the state of Washington is full of them), then go on a short road trip to see them firsthand.
>
> For photos of the current landscape and an interesting graphic outlining the extent of the flooding, see this article from the Washington State University alumni magazine and also the Ice Age Floods Institute web site.
>
> http://wsm.wsu.edu/s/index.php?id=472
>
> http://www.iafi.org/
>
> Diana
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Associate Professor
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> Department of Biochemistry
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214B
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
> Email: [email protected]
> 214-645-6383 (phone)
> 214-645-6353 (fax)
>
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2011, at 9:28 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:
>
>> The cave connection of this second item from the "Windy City Speleonews" is just J Harlen Bretz. Yes, no period after the J, which was his full name. I had lunch with him when he was 94 at his house, Boulderstrewn, in Homewood, Illinois. I happened to drive by, on the way to the NSS convention in Bellingham, Washington, a few years ago, the Dry Falls three miles wide, where the state of Washington has a picnic area and displays. One non-technical source on the falls is http://www.gonorthwest.com/Washington/northeast/Dry_Falls.htm, although links onward from that page are broken. -- Mixon
>>
>> Cavers know J Harlen Bretz mainly as the author of "Caves of Missouri" and coauthor of "Caves of Illinois," which was published when he was 78 years old. To speleologists, he is best known for his famous 1942 "Journal of Geology" paper on vadose and phreatic features of caves. But his geological studies were by no means restricted to caves, and he is probably best known for (and is most proud of) of series of papers published between 1923 and 1932 in which he described the very peculiar geology of a large area in eastern Washington that he correctly attributed to a catastrophic flood. This theory was considered outrageous at the time, partly, at least, because it was a departure from the only recently ascendent geological dogma of uniformitarianism. But more recent research has fully proved him right.
>>
>> A lake, called Lake Missoula, was created in western Montana by a dam of glacier ice in northern Idaho. The lake contained some four hundred cubic miles of water that were released suddenly when melting caused the dam to fail. The resulting flood, called the Spokane Flood after the city presently near the upstream end, scoured nearly three thousand square miles down to bedrock and created huge canyons and cataracts, one three miles wide. It deposited gravel bars, some of which contain boulders several feet in diameter, a hundred feet high and a mile long, topped with giant current ripple-marks ten feet high. The water ponded behind the Wallula Gap, through which it poured a thousand feet deep. The peak flow from Lake Missoula, attested to by current ripples fifty feet high, has been calculated at twenty million cubic meters per second. (This is fifteen _cubic miles_ per hour. For comparison purposes, it is one hundred fifty times the mean flow of the Amazon River and ten or twenty times the total average flow of fresh water into the oceans of the world.) In a few days, it was all over.
>>
>> (Actually, there were a good number of such floods, as the ice dam reestablished itself. Note added 2011.)
>> ----------------------------------------
>> A fearless man cannot be brave.
>> ----------------------------------------
>> You may "reply" to the address this message
>> came from, but for long-term use, save:
>> Personal: [email protected]
>> AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>
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Hi,
Well, Petzl also has quality controls in place that make sure that every piece they sell opens at no less than 1350 pounds, while a cheap rip-off most definitely won't have those and you might get one that fails at 1600 and the next one from the same production line may fail at 300, or after 200 uses instead of 9999. And Petzl might recall a product if it turns out there's an issue with it. And you may be able to sue them if their product fails on you. It's not just numbers, it's predictability and reliability and whatever else you could summarize under "trust". A little different from the risks involved with buying fake jeans. ;) 

Cheers,
David
Quoting Mixon Bill <[email protected]> at Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:00:41 -0600 in :
I suspect that the safety factor in the strength of real Petzl gear over what is really needed for normal use is so great that the fake gear is not really dangerous. For example, does it really matter whether a Croll opens at 900 pounds or 1350 pounds? You should never take a fall on an ascender anyway. Still, of course, if you think you're getting Petzl gear, you should get the real thing. Just don't get paranoid about relying on somebody's Petzl gear because it might be fake. -- Mixon 
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