texascavers Digest 20 Feb 2011 18:13:58 -0000 Issue 1253
Topics (messages 17223 through 17235):
Re: Caving Alone
17223 by: Mark Minton
17226 by: Fritz Holt
17228 by: Mark Minton
17230 by: Gill Edigar
17232 by: Mark Minton
17234 by: Brian Vauter
TCMA News and Changes
17224 by: Allan Cobb
17225 by: caverarch
archaeology find in underwater Mexican cave
17227 by: Mixon Bill
Texas Cave Conservancy -Winter Conference- February 25-27
17229 by: Mike Walsh
Call for museum exhibit designers!
17231 by: George Veni
Moni Ponce coming to visit
17233 by: Linda Palit
stygobites.com
17235 by: michael david
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--- Begin Message ---
Further down in Fritz' post, Jim McLane said:
Just what's wrong with caving alone? With the exception of Floyd Collins'
entrapment in 1925 (he wouldn't have died if the local coal miners
had gone to
work promptly to free him) I challenge you to point to even one single modern
fatality that has occurred because a person was caving alone.
Plenty of cave divers have died alone in a cave, but it's
not clear that many of them would have fared any better with a
buddy. In fact I think solo sump diving is often considered safer
than having a buddy because the buddy can be more hindrance than
help. Probably the most famous case of a solo caver disappearing is
Alex Pitcher, a young Brit who disappeared in the Gouffre Berger in
1987. His body was not found until the following year, in a
previously unknown passage where he had fallen and/or been entrapped
by falling rock. It was a famous mystery.
Mark Minton
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe cave diving is a form of caving. Although there are probably far more
dry land cavers than divers, I wonder if the percentage of deaths among divers
is greater. I would think so. Does anyone have any stats on that? In line with
Mark's post, I believe we have had more than one death from drowning here in
our own Jacob's Well. I believe the disturbed silt reduced visibility to zero
and divers became disoriented. I will leave this form to the pros, but of
course they die also. Because of my past history with Goodenough Spring south
of Comstock (now inundated by Lake Amistad), I think the dive there to about
400 feet just a few years ago is the most interesting. Before it was covered, I
found it to be the most beautiful desert oasis in Texas.
Fritz
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Minton [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 10:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Caving Alone
Further down in Fritz' post, Jim McLane said:
>Just what's wrong with caving alone? With the exception of Floyd Collins'
>entrapment in 1925 (he wouldn't have died if the local coal miners
>had gone to
>work promptly to free him) I challenge you to point to even one single modern
>fatality that has occurred because a person was caving alone.
Plenty of cave divers have died alone in a cave, but it's
not clear that many of them would have fared any better with a
buddy. In fact I think solo sump diving is often considered safer
than having a buddy because the buddy can be more hindrance than
help. Probably the most famous case of a solo caver disappearing is
Alex Pitcher, a young Brit who disappeared in the Gouffre Berger in
1987. His body was not found until the following year, in a
previously unknown passage where he had fallen and/or been entrapped
by falling rock. It was a famous mystery.
Mark Minton
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
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--- Begin Message ---
I don't know the stats, but yes, cave diving is definitely
more dangerous than dry caving. There's a saying, "There are old
cave divers and there are bold cave divers, but there are no old,
bold cave divers!" When you're that dependent on technology, any
little thing can do you in. You don't have the luxury to wait for rescue.
Mark
At 01:22 PM 2/18/2011, Fritz Holt wrote:
I believe cave diving is a form of caving. Although there are
probably far more dry land cavers than divers, I wonder if the
percentage of deaths among divers is greater. I would think so. Does
anyone have any stats on that? In line with Mark's post, I believe
we have had more than one death from drowning here in our own
Jacob's Well. I believe the disturbed silt reduced visibility to
zero and divers became disoriented. I will leave this form to the
pros, but of course they die also. Because of my past history with
Goodenough Spring south of Comstock (now inundated by Lake Amistad),
I think the dive there to about 400 feet just a few years ago is the
most interesting. Before it was covered, I found it to be the most
beautiful desert oasis in Texas.
Fritz
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Minton [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 10:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Caving Alone
Further down in Fritz' post, Jim McLane said:
>Just what's wrong with caving alone? With the exception of Floyd Collins'
>entrapment in 1925 (he wouldn't have died if the local coal miners
>had gone to
>work promptly to free him) I challenge you to point to even one
single modern
>fatality that has occurred because a person was caving alone.
Plenty of cave divers have died alone in a cave, but it's
not clear that many of them would have fared any better with a
buddy. In fact I think solo sump diving is often considered safer
than having a buddy because the buddy can be more hindrance than
help. Probably the most famous case of a solo caver disappearing is
Alex Pitcher, a young Brit who disappeared in the Gouffre Berger in
1987. His body was not found until the following year, in a
previously unknown passage where he had fallen and/or been entrapped
by falling rock. It was a famous mystery.
Mark Minton
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Further down in Fritz' post, Jim McLane said:
>>
>> >Just what's wrong with caving alone?
The deal is that you are always solo caving. You alone are responsible
for where you put your feet, where you shine your lamp, how you climb
a wall. Nobody else is taking care of your decision making or
traversing the cave--because they are busy doing the same thing. They
are solo caving and you are solo caving. The only difference is that
you are all solo caving in a group. If you can go solo caving in a
group why can't you go solo caving all alone? Having a group of other
cavers around is no excuse for not being as careful as you would
caving solo. And if you're that careful then everything ought to be
alright, huh?
--Ediger
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--- Begin Message ---
But there is a difference, and that is what happens when you
make a mistake or, more likely, something unforeseen
happens. Handholds break, breakdown shifts, lights or vertical gear
malfunction, things get lost down holes, people slip, fall, and twist
ankles. All manner of things can happen that would not be life
threatening in themselves, but could easily become so if you are all
alone with no one to help. I'm not against solo caving and have done
so myself, but it is foolish to think it is just as safe as caving
with a group.
Mark Minton
At 11:38 PM 2/18/2011, Gill Edigar wrote:
>> Further down in Fritz' post, Jim McLane said:
>>
>> >Just what's wrong with caving alone?
The deal is that you are always solo caving. You alone are responsible
for where you put your feet, where you shine your lamp, how you climb
a wall. Nobody else is taking care of your decision making or
traversing the cave--because they are busy doing the same thing. They
are solo caving and you are solo caving. The only difference is that
you are all solo caving in a group. If you can go solo caving in a
group why can't you go solo caving all alone? Having a group of other
cavers around is no excuse for not being as careful as you would
caving solo. And if you're that careful then everything ought to be
alright, huh?
--Ediger
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I suppose you could say that some risks in caving are dependent upon the
number of people on the trip (or even the group's collective experience with
the activity), but I would say that the actual risks involved with caving
are largely indeterminate of the number of participants. Our perception of
the inherent risks does change in that I think we all *feel *safer with a
group. As stated with both Gill and Mark's comments, you can slip/fall,
loose a light/handhold, etc., but these risks exist whether you are alone or
with a group. So in this case, my opinion would be whether you cave by
yourself or with a group does nothing to alter the *inherent *risks involved
with caving. And what Gill stated holds true: you should be careful at all
times.
The *outcome *of a given incident does change, as Mark points out, when
there are others around to help. But again, whether it's one body or
several, the risks still exist. You just have more hands to help when
something goes wrong.
Our perception of risk is something that never ceases to amaze me.
-brian
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I just wanted to announce that TCMA has had several changes in our Preserve
and Property Managers.
I would like to thank our managers who are leaving. Aimee Beveridge has
been the Preserve Manager at Godwin Ranch for many years and has decided to
step down. Godwin Ranch is a preserve that is used mainly for research and
biomonitoring due to it endangered species. Peter Sprouse has been the
Property Manager for our management agreement with UT Lands. The main caves
we manage on UT Lands are 09 Well and Amazing Maze. Both Peter and Aimee
have been managers for TCMA since 2004. TCMA thanks them for all their
years of hard work.
Matt Turner has is stepping down as Preserve Manager of Lost Oasis Cave. He
has not been in that position for long but he decided to take over
management of a different preserve. Matt will continue as manager of
Whirlpool Cave.
I would also like to introduce and welcome their replacements. Matt Turner
will be taking over as Preserve Manager at Godwin Ranch. David Ochel will
be taking over as Property Manager for the UT Lands caves. Ron Ralph is the
new Preserve Manager for Lost Oasis Cave. Welcome managers and thanks for
taking over.
Each of our new Preserve Managers have big shoes to fill from their
predecessors. If you are interested in helping on any of the preserves, feel
free to contact the Preserve Managers. I'm sure they would welcome any help
offered. Also, don't forget to thank the outgoing Preserve Managers for
their service.
Thanks,
Allan Cobb
TCMA President
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--- Begin Message ---
Kudos for their service to both the outgoing and the incoming.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Allan Cobb <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 11:28 am
Subject: [Texascavers] TCMA News and Changes
Hi all,
I just wanted to announce that TCMA has had several changes in our Preserve and
Property Managers.
I would like to thank our managers who are leaving. Aimee Beveridge has been
the Preserve Manager at Godwin Ranch for many years and has decided to step
down. Godwin Ranch is a preserve that is used mainly for research and
biomonitoring due to it endangered species. Peter Sprouse has been the Property
Manager for our management agreement with UT Lands. The main caves we manage on
UT Lands are 09 Well and Amazing Maze. Both Peter and Aimee have been managers
for TCMA since 2004. TCMA thanks them for all their years of hard work.
Matt Turner has is stepping down as Preserve Manager of Lost Oasis Cave. He
has not been in that position for long but he decided to take over management
of a different preserve. Matt will continue as manager of Whirlpool Cave.
I would also like to introduce and welcome their replacements. Matt Turner
will be taking over as Preserve Manager at Godwin Ranch. David Ochel will be
taking over as Property Manager for the UT Lands caves. Ron Ralph is the new
Preserve Manager for Lost Oasis Cave. Welcome managers and thanks for taking
over.
Each of our new Preserve Managers have big shoes to fill from their
predecessors. If you are interested in helping on any of the preserves, feel
free to contact the Preserve Managers. I'm sure they would welcome any help
offered. Also, don't forget to thank the outgoing Preserve Managers for their
service.
Thanks,
Allan Cobb
TCMA President
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--- Begin Message ---
http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/blogs/news/chiefeditor/ -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
If a thing is not worth doing, it is not worth doing well.
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--- Begin Message ---
James Reddell had planned to be with us as a special speaker, however he
will be unable to do so. Some of his recent plans have fallen through
including his trip to Egypt two days after the revolution started. Later
this year, we will have a small party with James. E-mail us if you would
like to be notified. We will video James at that time.
Our speaker Saturday evening February 26, Mike Warton will tell us about his
exciting cave career including his story about hijacking the garbage truck
and adventures in Mexico. For those of you that do not know this Texas
legend, this will be your chance to visit with him.
Join us this February 25-27, 2011 for the fourth annual Texas Cave
Conservancy Winter Conference. As usual, it will be held at the TCC
Headquarters and Campground. While everyone is welcome, it is an event set
up for new cavers. Toward that end, the TCC will present a Basic Caving
Workshop on Saturday. Grottos, come on out and be sure to let your new
cavers know that they are welcome. We will have camping, caving, workshops,
a Saturday night meal and a party.
This year our special Speaker after the Saturday night meal will be Mike
Warton. Mike will provide us some info on his exciting caving career.
Donations will be accepted, however, if you are a new caver everything will
provided at no cost. Camping, caving and a great party Saturday evening
will be some of the activities. If you want to set up a special event
contact us. Start 2011 out with your caver friends, both old and new. For
more information contact us at:
[email protected]
512-249-2283
TCC Headquarters
1800 West Park
Cedar Park, Texas 78613
TCC Winter Conference Activities
February 25-27, 2011
Friday
Camping & caving
Saturday
Breakfast
Tours& Workshops - Starting 9:00-10:00 A.M.
. Westside Cave Preserve -
Cave Geology & Hydrology-10:00 A.M.
. Bill Larson
. Basic Caving Workshop - 9:00 A.M.
. Justin Shaw
Introduction-Land Owner Relations-
Cave Biology, Survey, Photography &
Urban caving (Visits several caves).
. Avery Ranch Cave- All Day
. Dies Ranch Treasure Cave-All Day
. Dies Ranch Shelter Cave-All Day
. Cedar Park area Caving-All Day
. Bob Finger Napping
(Making arrowheads) TCC Headquarters
5:00 PM
. Urban Cave Monitoring & Management
Workshop- This is the basic introduction to the 25 hour course
At the TCC Headquarters -5:00 PM
. Dinner - 6:30 PM
. Special After- Dinner guest presentation by Mike Warton
.
. Hall of Texas Cavers slides & Party
. Dave Cave's Salon (Strawberry Margaritas & more)
Sunday
Breakfast
[email protected]
512-249-2283
TCC Headquarters
1800 West Park
Cedar Park, Texas 78613
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--- Begin Message ---
The National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI) is looking for museum
exhibit designers. We have a museum space at our new headquarters that we
plan to fill with a splendid array of cave and karst exhibits. If you are an
exhibit designer, please go to http://www.nmt.edu/request-for-proposal-(rfp)
for all of the details. If you know a designer who may be interested, please
forward this message to them. Anyone who is interested must only contact the
Purchasing staff at New Mexico Tech, not me or other NCKRI staff or board
members. The Purchasing staff's address is on the above web page. NCKRI is
administered by New Mexico Tech and we appreciate their assistance with this
and other services.
New Mexico Tech is broadly advertising this request for proposal among
museum circles, and I'm circulating the information among caving circles.
All proposals must reach New Mexico Tech by 15 March 2011, 2 p.m., MST. We
look forward to developing some wonderful exhibits soon!
Thanks,
George
***************************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
1400 Commerce Drive
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 413-383-2276
[email protected]
www.nckri.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello, All,
Monica Ponce is arriving in SA at dawn tomorrow morning, and will be in
Texas about a week. She has a doctor's appointment on Tuesday. She will be
trying to get to Austin sometime before she leaves town to visit friends
there, but must return to take care of affairs in Saltillo in a week. I do
not know if she will activate her US phone, so please feel free to contact
her at my house, by phone (210 699 1388) or come by.
Allan and I are not caving this weekend because his dad is still in the
hospital, so we will be in and out a lot, and our affairs are a bit of a
muddle. Ixchel, the Great, will be trying to visit Moni and keep her in
line, but I'm sure some human contact will also be welcome.
Thanks,
Linda
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--- Begin Message ---
On our last trip to Florida caves we had difficulties in identifying cave
critters because the information is spread around the internet..articles
here, pictures there, some videos and a lot of time needed to search and
retrieve it all.
So it got me thinking, wouldn't it be cool to have a site that collected
info from underwater troglobites specifically...They are so cool they
deserve their own place on the web.
I set up a web site to aggregate all the publicly available web data sources
for easy searching and entering sightings....it's got some cool pictures and
videos already but it'd need contributions from many cavers to give enough
data to draw conclusions from the sightings.
www.stygobites.com
<http://www.stygobites.com/>
Users can register and link in images, video and make sightings of cave
creatures. I'll keep the site up and hope it can be a good resource for
cavers...the audience of folks that may be interested in it is kind of
small.
I've received feedback from scientist folks doing biological surveys in
caves so I've already got some improvements in queue. The sightings
functions will be updated to allow retrieval and sorting by user entry
qualifications as well as allowing sightings of dead creatures and an
automated email when those come in to water quality people so they can go do
a sample quickly after the die off.
I don't use php at work so the code is a little rusty as i just picked it up
for this project.
Suggestions are welcome.
Thanks
Michael David
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