texascavers Digest 23 Feb 2010 21:43:23 -0000 Issue 985
Topics (messages 13848 through 13859):
Re: Firearms ed. & Caves
13848 by: Fritz Holt
snakes?
13849 by: caverarch.aol.com
13850 by: Fritz Holt
Re: Query: gassing snake dens
13851 by: Robert B
Re: Caver gas
13852 by: Andy Gluesenkamp
Re: Update on the rescue in Zongolica, Veracruz, Mexico - operations finished
13853 by: Fofo
Re: Book about Sistema Cheve coming out
13854 by: Mark Minton
13856 by: David
Re: Yes
13855 by: Banditskel.aol.com
13857 by: Banditskel.aol.com
13858 by: Sheryl Rieck
13859 by: Banditskel.aol.com
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--- Begin Message ---
The NRA has taught these basic rules for 100 years and all gun owners should
abide by them. Unfortunately, many misguided souls (anti-gunners) think the NRA
is comprised of rednecks and yahoos but just the opposite is true.
Fritz
________________________________
From: jack witz [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 1:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Firearms ed. & Caves
I just read thru all those comments. Interesting. Some good, some funny, some
folks have been offended. So I'll just add my dry 2 cents and hope it's
constructive.
My Firearms Safety Rules
1 Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.
2 Do not point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot/kill.
3 Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
I've toted a rifle (among other things) thru Iraq twice. Frankly, it's a
b!tch. However, a Marine is useless and dead w/out his rifle. Rifles are our
tools and naturally we may have some affection/superstitions for our tools.
Baseball players have lucky jockstraps, and after a firefight (trust me) you'll
bond w/ your rifle too. Warriors use weapons as tools and hang them up when
not called for.
Humans built firearms to kill. I understand and enjoy marksmanship as a fine
sport, and so is fencing. Centuries ago, you learned fencing b/c swords
dominated. Naturally, those skills came in handy to kill opponents on
battlefields. Call them collector's items, family heirlooms, investments, etc.
. Never forget the gun was made to kill.
Violence, Force, and Killing are not the same thing. Violence is emotional
blind stupid and may lead to unnecessary death. Force is appropriate gradual
restrained application of strength. Rules of Engagement operate under the
concept of Force, and mine are 1 Verbal warning, 2 Warning shot, 3 Two to the
body, One to the head. Unfortunately, I think many people kill other people
via violence.
I own a few weapons. I may have go get a CCL. I may start keeping one under
the car seat w/ a locking mechanism of some sort. Will I ever use it? Fat
chance. I think pistols in caves are impractical. The nearest flat rock or
fat tree branch will suffice. If I encounter a rattle snake in a cave I'll
just turn around and leave it be. It'll probably only attack to defend its
home. Wouldn't you?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I visited the old Rice Grotto twice ca. 1968-1972 when I was still living in
Florida, thanks to visits to an uncle in Houston. I managed to go on once
caving trip with them to the hill country. A rattler was encountered on the
surface some where, and promptly dispatched. (No, I don't remember the kind of
weapon used.) But I do remember being the subject of good-natured ridicule
when I protested, saying that the snake wasn't bothering any body. I was told
something to the effect of "Leave a rattlesnake alive? We never heard of such
a crazy idea, boy."
Roger Moore
GHG
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Cradit <[email protected]>
To: 'jack witz' <[email protected]>; [email protected]
<[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, Feb 23, 2010 9:34 am
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Firearms ed. & Caves - and snakes?
I have been caving for around 30 years and I have only seenthree rattling
snakes in a cave though there were probably more that saw me.
One was at the bottom of the entrance drop into Lechaguea. I toldhim to put
his hands up or I would shoot. I guess he knew I was bluffing ‘causeI didn’t
have a weapon, so I put my cave pack on him to hold him in place founda long
stick, picked him up with the long stick and relocated him. The otherwas at
the entrance to a six-foot deep sinkhole in Hays County. Joe Noshoulderswas
hiding under a rock on the surface and when I moved it to get into the caveJoe
slithered out looked up at us and dropped into the sinkhole and disappeared. We
returned defenseless a different day and couldn’t find him. The third wasan
encounter of a closer kind in the long crawl in Langtry Lead Cave. It is a
lowhands and knees crawl with broken gravel on the floor. Jonathan Justice was
inthe lead when we heard a commotion of rocks bouncing off of the walls, then
silence,then, “it’s okay, come on”. As each person crawled up to the point of
activitywe could hear “ohhh”, and then they crawled on. Jonathan had come upon
arattler in the crawl way several 100s of feet inside of the cave and
neitherhad anywhere to go. Hands with opposing thumbs won out. He hit it with
hiscave pack and then got him stoned, then moved on. Therefore I think
caring acave pack in a cave is more useful that a 45. You can get your cave
pack wetand muddy and it still works.
The point brought up earlier about trusting/not trusting thepeople you cave
with with caring a weapon in a cave is to me like the oldapples and oranges
assessment. I trust the folks I cave with while we arecaving. I know their
caving ability and if they can rig that drop. I mightnot know how they handle
a deadly weapon. I think Jack (below) would agreethat weapon training takes
hours of work and you want to be sure your buddyknows his stuff. Or did I
misunderstand what was said about you should trustthe people you cave with
with anything just because you cave with them? There area couple of cavers
that drive racing cars really fast. I don’t think I wouldwant to ride with
just any caver driving really fast because I trust themcaving. Driving a race
car takes a certain skill set, caring a deadly weapontakes a skill set, rigging
a drop takes a skill set, and all take hours oftraining to be proficient.
The bottom line is my personal belief is there is no reason todrag a gun into a
cave. Leave it at camp and enjoy some plinking or shoot somefresh meat and
we’ll skin it and cook it around the camp.
Jon
From: jack witz[mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 1:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Firearms ed. & Caves
I just read thru all those comments. Interesting. Some good, some funny,
some folks have been offended. So I’ll just add my dry 2 cents and hope it’s
constructive.
My Firearms Safety Rules
1 Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.
2 Do not point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot/kill.
3 Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
I’ve toted a rifle (among other things) thru Iraq twice. Frankly, it’s a
b!tch. However, a Marine is useless and dead w/out his rifle. Rifles are our
tools and naturally we may have some affection/superstitions for our tools.
Baseball players have lucky jockstraps, and after a firefight (trust me)
you’ll bond w/ your rifle too. Warriors use weapons as tools and hang them up
when not called for.
Humans built firearms to kill. I understand and enjoy marksmanship as a fine
sport, and so is fencing. Centuries ago, you learned fencing b/c swords
dominated. Naturally, those skills came in handy to kill opponents on
battlefields. Call them collector’s items, family heirlooms, investments,
etc. . Never forget the gun was made to kill.
Violence, Force, and Killing are not the same thing. Violence is emotional
blind stupid and may lead to unnecessary death. Force is appropriate gradual
restrained application of strength. Rules of Engagement operate under the
concept of Force, and mine are 1 Verbal warning, 2 Warning shot, 3 Two to the
body, One to the head. Unfortunately, I think many people kill other people
via violence.
I own a few weapons. I may have go get a CCL. I may start keeping one under
the car seat w/ a locking mechanism of some sort. Will I ever use it? Fat
chance. I think pistols in caves are impractical. The nearest flat rock or
fat tree branch will suffice. If I encounter a rattle snake in a cave I’ll
just turn around and leave it be. It’ll probably only attack to defend its
home. Wouldn’t you?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awhile back, as a young man, I killed a few venomous snakes, but no more.
Snakes are beneficial, eating mostly destructive small mammals and a few birds.
The exception might be ones in your yard when you have small children but these
too can be relocated.
They are unique, beautiful creatures, as are you, Jean.
Fritz
________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:12 AM
To: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] snakes?
I visited the old Rice Grotto twice ca. 1968-1972 when I was still living in
Florida, thanks to visits to an uncle in Houston. I managed to go on once
caving trip with them to the hill country. A rattler was encountered on the
surface some where, and promptly dispatched. (No, I don't remember the kind of
weapon used.) But I do remember being the subject of good-natured ridicule
when I protested, saying that the snake wasn't bothering any body. I was told
something to the effect of "Leave a rattlesnake alive? We never heard of such
a crazy idea, boy."
Roger Moore
GHG
-----
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
oh come on Andy, "respond off-line". Not everybody is gonna begin their
response with "one time I was following (Name Here) and smelled this noxious
gas".
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Andy Gluesenkamp <
[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm trying to get a handle on how widespread is the practice of gassing
> snake dens in Texas. "Gassing" is often used by rattlesnake collectors
> associated with roundups. They typically use a garden sprayer or a hose to
> deliver gasoline into crevices and retreats with the intention of driving
> snakes to the surface. Are any of you aware of this practice in karst
> areas? Have you ever smelled gas at a cave entrance? Please respond
> off-line.
> gracias,
> Andy
>
> Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
> 700 Billie Brooks Drive
> Driftwood, Texas 78619
> (512) 799-1095
> [email protected]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh, man. I remember when Charley Savvas used to pee in his acetylene
generator. That, and his amazing ability to "spider crawl" made it very
difficult to keep up with him.
Andy
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
[email protected]
--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Robert B <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Robert B <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Query: gassing snake dens
To: [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 10:23 AM
oh come on Andy, "respond off-line". Not everybody is gonna begin their
response with "one time I was following (Name Here) and smelled this noxious
gas".
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Andy Gluesenkamp
<[email protected]> wrote:
I'm trying to get a handle on how widespread is the practice of gassing snake
dens in Texas. "Gassing" is often used by rattlesnake collectors associated
with roundups. They typically use a garden sprayer or a hose to deliver
gasoline into crevices and retreats with the intention of driving snakes to the
surface. Are any of you aware of this practice in karst areas? Have you ever
smelled gas at a cave entrance? Please respond off-line.
gracias,
Andy
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good afternoon.
A note from Antonio Aguirre on the end of operations in Zongolica:
"The patient was out of the cave by 00:30 hrs. He was transported to
Zongolica to receive medical attention and fortunately he is doing well,
only badly bruised, as would be expected, since he rolled down a 15 m
incline and then fell into a 30 m pit. A doctor was lowered first and he
was with the patient throughout the rescue. The personnel is going back
to their homes."
- Fofo
Fofo wrote, on 22/2/10 23:18:
Howdy!
This is a note from Antonio Aguirre, president of Espeleo Rescate Mexico
(ERM):
"The patient is a 23 year old male that fell into a 60 meter pit. He is
alive. This information is from Proteccion Civil of Veracruz, but it has
not been confirmed by ERM personnel. There are more rescuers moving to
the zone"
- Fofo
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--- Begin Message ---
>http://www.scribd.com/doc/25590597/BLIND-DESCENT-by-James-M-Tabor-Sneak-Preview
It's actually about Bill Stone and Alexander Klimchouk and
the race for the deepest cave in the world. Stone's part takes place
in the Cheve area. As we all know, Klimchouk won (Krubera/Voronja
2191 m deep vs Cheve 1484 m deep, although Cheve has greater
potential). Publisher's page at
<http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781400067671>.
I can't believe Tabor called his book Blind Descent! There
is already a cave book by that name, Nevada Barr's mystery that takes
place in a fictionalized Lechuguilla. You can read it free on Google
Books at
<http://books.google.com/books?id=mEYSdzBEtbsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=blind+descent+nevada+barr&source=bl&ots=Fh4HNesTh9&sig=VUegJgsbE6cBaU6DBBHXLVlXir4&hl=en&ei=WzmES8idEIXUtgP6y-ijDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false>.
Mark Minton
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a Cheve caver, driving a yellow Toyota 4x4 Pick-up, that has
a license plate that
reads:
"Cheve."
If so, I passed him on the road today.
--- End Message ---
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I understand the off topic and some people r very funny so the amount of
mail has nothing to do with it! I have been here for half of a year and have
learned a lot from people I just find it very amusing when it gets nasty.
It made me think twice about going on any group trips. I will just learn all
I can and do it with my family and friends. But that's not what I would
like. I really want to learn from all the great caver's on this site. All I
was really saying is cant we all just get along? This is the 1st time I have
chimed in about anything so I hope I am not being downed for it?? Also my
2 cents I agree with guns for protection but also agree that its just
easier to leave a cave with a snack. That's its home and we care so much about
bats but don't care about the other animals that's just not right.?? Don't
get me wrong I have a bat tattoo and have loved them way b4 I wanted to
cave. I just want to learn for all of u. I'm an empty slate just trying to
learn. Minnow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank u Jacqui Thomas. That was good to hear and I will take ur advice. I
know I am a baby caver so thank u for talking to me respectfully. U rock.
Minnow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Minnow,
Do what I do and either stir the pot or ignore them. LOL I have found that
except for a very few people, the perceived hate and discontent on here is
not as long lived as one would think. Most people agree to disagree
eventually, but they must say all they have to say first, sometimes to the
point of being admonished for unsportsperson-like conduct. Cavers are
verbose. And, they love to vocalize. Don't take all this to heart. Many of
these people have been arguing with each other for years and will continue
to do so for many more to come. If you don't enjoy the scuffle (and
sometimes I don't) just delete the messages when you figure out the thread
is going in that contentious direction.
These are the best folks I know and I enjoy them even when they are making
asses of themselves. Mostly because I can make an ass of myself with them
if I so choose. This always happens when there isn't a caving event to
occupy people's minds. ;-) Hang in there! These topics end eventually when
they find some other topic to argue about.
Sheryl
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Yes
I understand the off topic and some people r very funny so the amount of
mail has nothing to do with it! I have been here for half of a year and have
learned a lot from people I just find it very amusing when it gets nasty. It
made me think twice about going on any group trips. I will just learn all I
can and do it with my family and friends. But that's not what I would like.
I really want to learn from all the great caver's on this site. All I was
really saying is cant we all just get along? This is the 1st time I have
chimed in about anything so I hope I am not being downed for it?? Also my 2
cents I agree with guns for protection but also agree that its just easier
to leave a cave with a snack. That's its home and we care so much about bats
but don't care about the other animals that's just not right.?? Don't get me
wrong I have a bat tattoo and have loved them way b4 I wanted to cave. I
just want to learn for all of u. I'm an empty slate just trying to learn.
Minnow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok T what the heck does that mean?? That I have to be uncomfortable being
around other caver's?? If that's what u mean then I will be doing things on
my own and no u wont be coming to save me! I'm about over this sorry I even
said anything but still Jacqui Thomas rocks wish most of u talked like
her. Minnow
--- End Message ---
