texascavers Digest 26 Mar 2010 16:48:48 -0000 Issue 1011
Topics (messages 14227 through 14241):
Fossil finger points to new human species
14227 by: BMorgan994.aol.com
14229 by: Preston Forsythe
14231 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
Re: [Restoration Field Camp] WNS moves west
14228 by: Diana Tomchick
AMCS sales at TSA
14230 by: Mixon Bill
Re: Report about an accident in Grutas de La Puente, SLP, Mexico
14232 by: Gill Edigar
14233 by: Mark Minton
Golondrinas update
14234 by: Greg Passmore
Government Canyon Schedule
14235 by: Marvin & Lisa
Re: Mexico accident report - Spanish 101
14236 by: David
Looking for a ride to Convention
14237 by: Don Cooper
Re: TSA Spring Convention FAQ's
14238 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
14241 by: Stefan Creaser
Famous Cave Ladders
14239 by: Mark Minton
14240 by: Preston Forsythe
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--- Begin Message ---
Not long ago I was ranting on a similar subject with my caver buddy Buford.
_http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051107080321.htm_
(http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051107080321.htm)
...This is what I was talking about, the replacement of aboriginal
populations of Negritos, Melanesians, Aussie abos, etc by modern Asians. The
diff
is that I think the resident negroids were the ones that got replaced, not
H heidelburgensis, erectus, or some other kind of supposedly "non human"
(Gimme a break! We are all human!) form.
I think the original inhabitants of southeast Asia were all some form of
Homo erectus that merged with the first wave of modern negroids some 70,000
years ago to form the abos of today, then much later modern Asians showed up
and took over. That is especially obvious when you look at Malaysia where
pigmy negritos live only in peripheral habitats. In Borneo they were driven
to extinction, whereas in Melanesia they continued to dominate. Vanuatu is
apparently the most genetically and linguistically diverse place on earth,
even more so than New Guinea. My friend Anna tells me that there are
Polynesians living alongside wooley buggers with whom they do not interbreed,
so
I guess it is a standoff. Some might point to that as an example of why
there is no genetic evidence of modern man having interbred with previously
existing humans, but I think it is just a matter of genetic swamping, not
absolute rejection due to aesthetics. Boys will be boys.
I'm not sure what the latest is in regard to Homo floriensis, AKA the
Hobbit, but I'll bet that if one was chased out of the woods by a komodo dragon
today he would be indistinguishable from a pigmy negrito from the highlands
of Malaysia. If the Hobbit's brain was so little howcum they used a
"modern" toolkit? Maybe they weren't so dumb after all, maybe they were us?
Regardless of what anthropologists say I find the idea that modern humans
raced out of Africa in recent times and "speciated" into the races of today
without any input from preexisting populations of Neanderthals, erectus,
etc, who supposedly fell over dead on the spot, to be absolutely ludicrous.
There simply wasn’t time, and the idea that the so called conquering species
(this is where the word race should apply) didn’t rape the women after
killing the men doesn’t accord with anything I have ever observed about human
nature.
Others have argued that any offspring would have been sterile, but I see no
reason to believe that. Mules notwithstanding, nature is full of "species"
that can interbreed with other "species" and produce fertile offspring but
do not due to some barrier, either physical or behavioral.
I fully realize that I am very much in the minority here and that all the
supposed evidence contradicts me, but I believe that the "out of Africa"
hypothesis needs to be set back by at least a million years. So what if
erectus had brow ridges and small brains, so do a lot of people today, ever go
to
walmart? I believe erectus evolved in place and simply became us as they
evolved and interbred with successive later waves of more advanced humans
"out of Africa".
The way I see it my view is a much less racist view than the current "out
of Africa" hypothesis which sounds a lot like "manifest destiny" to me!
Sleaze
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I'm going to mess with them and go straight to the TX bd. of ed.
And, Finger Pointer lived in a cave, right?
Preston
--------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Tomchick" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Fossil finger points to new human species
Anyone who has doubts
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--- Begin Message ---
My friend and I have both read the Nature article. Thanks, though. It would be nice if it was the yeti, though.
T
Mar 25, 2010 09:55:11 AM, [email protected] wrote:
Anyone who has doubts about this study (the methods used, the
conclusions reached) can contact me and I will send them the original
Nature article as a PDF attachment to the e-mail message.
Diana
On Mar 25, 2010, at 6:17 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> An anthro friend in the UK says they're either rolling out the
> Piltdown again or a new source for the Yeti/Sasquatch.
>
> T
>
>
> Mar 24, 2010 06:06:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> A fossil finger excavated from Denisova Cave in Siberia finally
> reveals its secrets: the evidence for a new human species that co-
> existed with Neanderthals and modern humans in central Asia
> approximately 30,000 to 50,000 years ago.
>
> http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100324/full/464472a.html
>
> and
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/24/AR2010032401926.html?hpid=topnews
>
> Diana
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Associate Professor
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> Department of Biochemistry
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214B
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
> Email: [email protected]
> 214-645-6383 (phone)
> 214-645-6353 (fax)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Begin forwarded message:
From: "rvanhoo" <[email protected]>
Date: March 24, 2010 6:25:45 PM CDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Restoration Field Camp] WNS moves west
Reply-To: [email protected]
Dunbar Cave is approximately 100 miles southwest of Mammoth Cave.
Dunbar Cave State Park Suspends Cave Tours
Released on Wed, Mar 24, 2010 - 11:37 am under
* Media Advisories
* Environment and Conservation
Bat in Dunbar Cave Tested Positive for White Nose Syndrome
CLARKSVILLE, Tenn. – Tennessee State Parks will suspend cave tours
at Dunbar Cave State Park after a bat from Dunbar Cave tested
positive for White Nose Syndrome. Other park activities and events,
including fishing, hiking and picnic facilities will remain open and
available to the public.
Dunbar Cave does not have a large bat population due, in part, to a
past fire and therefore, was not closed in 2009 when the state
closed public caves in an effort to protect Tennessee bat
populations from White Nose Syndrome. The cave is closed every year
from November through March to allow the limited number of bats that
are there undisrupted hibernation. It has not yet reopened for the
year, and has not hosted any public visitors over the winter.
The bat was discovered by researchers from Austin Peay State
University during a permitted research outing. Researchers have been
monitoring bats in the cave since 2006 to gather data on changes in
the bat population and roosting patterns over time, and to provide
an assessment of species diversity for each cave chamber.
Information gained from this cave research will assist the state in
management of the cave's resources.
Dunbar Cave is being closed indefinitely in an effort to take every
necessary precaution to isolate the fungus as much as possible in
order to protect bat populations at other nearby hibernacula,
recognizing that bat-to-bat transmission is still possible.
While endangered species of bats are not found in Dunbar Cave,
Tennessee is home to populations of endangered Indiana and gray
bats, which biologists fear could be potentially devastated by the
disease. The causes and transmission of White Nose Syndrome are
still being studied, but resource agencies are taking every
precaution to protect the species.
A multi-agency working group, consisting of federal and state
agencies and non-governmental organizations was formed last year to
coordinate the state's efforts to protect bats from White Nose
Syndrome. Last spring, the state of Tennessee, National Park
Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture Forest Service and Tennessee
Valley Authority closed caves on public lands in an attempt to slow
the spread of the fungus. The Nature Conservancy also closed caves
on their lands in Tennessee. Policies regarding Tennessee caves are
being reviewed and will be revised as new information warrants.
White Nose Syndrome causes bats to use up their fat reserves rapidly
during hibernation.
This causes affected bats to fly out of caves during winter in an
attempt to find food. Since the insects bats eat are seasonally
dormant, the bats die of starvation. Bats play a key role in keeping
insects, including agricultural pests, mosquitoes and forest pests,
under control.
There have been no reported human illnesses attributed to White Nose
Syndrome, and there is currently no evidence to suggest that it is
harmful to humans or other organisms.
This is the second confirmed occurrence of White Nose Syndrome in a
Tennessee cave. The first was reported by cavers at Worley's Cave in
Sullivan County and confirmed by the Tennessee Wildlife Resources
Agency in February. Worley's Cave is on private property and is not
subject to the state's closure.
###
Tisha Calabrese-Benton
Communications Director
Tennessee Dept. of Environment and Conservation
865.594.5442 - Knoxville Office
[email protected]
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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Association for Mexican Cave Studies will be selling at the TSA
convention, probably only at the church during breaks and lunch. We
will have just the most recent publications:
AMCS Activities Newsletter 31 (2008) softbound $14, hardbound $24
AMCS Activities Newsletter 32 (2009) softbound $14, hardbound $24
Death Coral Caver 14 (of the PEP, 2009) $5
Crystal Giants of the Caves of Naica $20
Huautla: Thirty Years in One of the World's Deepest Cave, by Bill
Steele $23
Hidden Depths of Mexico, film by Sid Perou (video DVD) $15
Cave Papers of Federico Bonet (AMCS Reprint 10, 2009) $12
Studies on the Cave and Endogean Fauna of North America, Part V. $16
Also, Mexican bat stickers, small 75¢, large $1.50
If you want me to bring for you anything else in the AMCS catalog (see
amcs-pubs.org), e-mail be before Friday evening, and I'll have it
there for you.
--Bill Mixon, AMCS sales
----------------------------------------
I am walking down the street with Leonardo di Vinci. He says, "It is
indeed wonderful what your science has created. You must explain to me
how everything works." That's when I wake up.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 5:57 PM, Fofo <[email protected]> wrote:
> ĄHola!
>
> This is a report from Antonio Aguirre...:
> There is an alternate exit from the cave, through some badly deteriorated
> metal stairs. A group was going up these when a metal bar fell on a person's
> head and he had to be helped by his friends, who guided him through the
> normal exit.
> It is worth noting that a lot of non-cavers visit this cave and the
> majority of them use the stairs to exit. This part of the cave has a lot of
> damage, some steps are missing in the stairs, they are very rusty, etc.
It's a little bit late but I'd like to point out that the word for stairs
and ladders is the same in Spanish--escalaras. The stairs reported in the
above text refers to a ladder, not stairs. It's a really dangerous, poorly
constructed, ergonomically doubtful (rungs too far apart) fixed ladder that
they often have elementary school field trips to where the kids climb up and
down the ladders totally without belays or other backup. I love that sort of
freedom. The United States misses a lot by protecting people from their own
stupidity--creating barriers to learning common sense and practical
knowledge.
--Ediger
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Ediger said:
>It's a little bit late but I'd like to point
out that the word for stairs and ladders is the same in Spanish--escalaras.
Actually, it's escalera, but the rest of
Ediger's points are well taken.
Mark Minton
At 07:16 PM 3/25/2010, Gill Edigar wrote:
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 5:57 PM, Fofo <[email protected]> wrote:
¡Hola!
This is a report from Antonio Aguirre...:
There is an alternate exit from the cave,
through some badly deteriorated metal stairs. A
group was going up these when a metal bar fell
on a person's head and he had to be helped by
his friends, who guided him through the normal exit.
It is worth noting that a lot of non-cavers
visit this cave and the majority of them use the
stairs to exit. This part of the cave has a lot
of damage, some steps are missing in the stairs, they are very rusty, etc.
It's a little bit late but I'd like to point out
that the word for stairs and ladders is the same
in Spanish--escalaras. The stairs reported in
the above text refers to a ladder, not stairs.
It's a really dangerous, poorly constructed,
ergonomically doubtful (rungs too far apart)
fixed ladder that they often have elementary
school field trips to where the kids climb up
and down the ladders totally without belays or
other backup. I love that sort of freedom. The
United States misses a lot by protecting people
from their own stupidity--creating barriers to
learning common sense and practical knowledge.
--Ediger
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Went to Golondrinas a couple times this week and there is a lot of new
commercial activity. Three local communities are in a dispute about who
controls access to the cave. The older, lower entrance is now closed and the
upper entrance is very commercial (think US border crossing). Fees are charged
for looking in the pit, rappelling, etc. We were told our photography would
cost us $500 US per person. We have visited many caves in the Xilitla area over
the last two weeks and have had to pay fees for parking, rappelling and
looking. Nothing necessarily bad about financially helping the locals, but all
the caution tape, wooden platforms and scores of kids asking for money to watch
your car have dramatically changed the personality of the local experience.
Just a FYI for anyone coming down here.
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The schedule for the karst project at Government Canyon for the next few
months is as follows:
April 25 (Sunday only)
May 29, 30
June 26 (Saturday only)
After June we'll take a break for the summer.
Reminders will appear as the dates approach.
I hope to see everyone at convention,
-Marvin
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--- Begin Message ---
There is a difference in Spanish between stairs and ladders.
I believe the usage of the noun is like in the 2 examples shown below:
Un cuevero ha sufrido heridas graves al caer de "una escalera."
Un cuevero ha sufrido heridas graves al caer de "las escaleras."
I believe a formal Spanish speaker might include an adjective to describe
the ladder or the stairs, such as hand ladder, or portable ladder, or short
step.
In some regions, people exaggerate words by saying itty bitty ladder,
or humongous ladder. So they might use a word like escalita, or escalota.
They also might throw in an adjective for: rickety, wobbly, or shabby, and
do it with a country accent, that might be difficult to decipher.
My favorite ladder, and I have only seen pictures of it, is the one made out of
a giant industrial chain-link belt.
David Locklear
caver in Fort Bend County
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I'm looking for a ride up there. Just me and maybe an ice chest. I'll be
meeting someone there.
-Don C Wavy Caver
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--- Begin Message ---
All,
the fabulous TSA Spring Convention is nigh upon us and BEAUTIFUL weather is
predicted!
What better way to celebrate the Rites of Spring by sitting inside a church to
listen to some great and informative talks or get underground at some of the
TCC's caves they wonderfully manage and are allowing us to access?!
Hope to see everyone here at the Convention and, please, bring guests and
prospective members.
I'm predicting a huge turnout and a memorable event that will be talked about
for years to come.
A HUMONGOUS thanks to Ellie for a superior job and great attitude in organizing
and riding herd on this event, Mike Walsh and the Texas Cave Conservancy for
hosting and helping to organize this event, Diana Tomchick and Bill Steele for
organizing the talks, Lyndon Tiu and the Greater Houston Grotto for running
registration, and Stefan and the CCC (Caver Cooking Crew) for preparing what
will be a truly delicious Thai feast.
Me?!
I just stayed out of the way!
One point I haven't seen mentioned and I want to emphasize:
5:00 Registration at TCC Headquarters (no register, no food)
6:30 Dinner served at TCC headquarters, bring your own utensils
(<-----------!!!!)
So, all of you denizens of the Center of the Caving Universe, come out for the
day or for the whole weekend for, what promises to be, a truly fun and historic
event!
See y'all then!
Mark Alman
TSA Chair and Cheerleader
________________________________
From: ellie :) [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Fri 3/19/2010 11:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] TSA Spring Convention FAQ's
Here are some Frequently Asked Questions about the 2010 Spring Convention:
Where is the TSA Spring Convention?
The convention is based at the Texas Cave Conservancy Headquarters-1800 West
Park Street, Cedar Park, TX 78613 (At the end of West Park Street across
Lakeline Blvd)
How much does it cost?
Fees: $15.00 per person and $40.00 for a family of 3 or more. The fees cover
camping, all the presentations, auction, an awesome supper on Saturday, all the
fun you can have, and some delicious beverages donated to us by Shiner.
Where will all of the presentations be located?
All presentations will be at the Methodist Church at 600 West Park Street,
Cedar Park, TX 78613 which is located about a mile from the TCC headquarters.
The room will be blacked out for all digital presentations and there will be
audio and visual available for all presenters. There are restaurants and hotels
nearby.
Where will the auction and group supper be held?
The TCMA auction and group supper will be stationed outside the TCC
Headquarters so bring your chairs.
Where will the Map and Photo Salon be located?
The Map and Photo Salon will have a permanent, secure place over the weekend
inside the TCC headquarters. Prizes will be awarded after supper.
Where will the vendors be located?
Vendors will have a permanent, secure place over the weekend at the TCC
headquarters but have the option to transport their goods to the Methodist
Church at 600 West Park Street, Cedar Park, TX? to sell during breaks in the
presentations on Saturday.
Are there any caving opportunities?
YES!!! At least 5 caves, horizontal and vertical, will be open in the Texas
Cave Conservancy over the March 26th-28th weekend so bring your gear and plan
to check out the TCC caves! There will not be organized trips, everyone is
encouraged to go at their own pace. The names of the caves will not be
publicized. Maps/Guidelines will be at headquarters.
Is there enough camping?
Yes, but parking is limited so carpool if possible.
I hear the hot tub will be there, is this true?
You better believe it will be there.
Will there be coffee at the presentations on Saturday?
YES! TCMA will be providing the caffeine boost
What is the general schedule for the weekend?
Friday is a party hosted by the TCC. Saturday is all the amazing presentations.
Saturday night is the group feed and then the auction. Sunday is the group
breakfast hosted by TCMA and the TCMA board meeting to follow. Hot tub will be
there all weekened. Caves are open all weekend. Other fun non-scheduled things
will be sprinkled in there.
Is this convention worth going to?
Yes it is! Plan to be there!
The Map & Photo Salon rules are posted on the TSA Spring Convention Website
http://www.cavetexas.org/events/TSASC/tsasc2010.html
TSA 2010 Spring Convention Event Page:
http://www.cavetexas.org/events/TSASC/tsasc2010.html
Facebook Event Page:
http://www.facebook.com/settings/?tab=privacy#/event.php?eid=219361835478&ref=share
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--- Begin Message ---
Ø Stefan and the CCC (Caver Cooking Crew) for preparing what will be a truly
delicious Thai feast
Actually I won't be there (sighs of relief all round!), TerryH and Vico are in
charge of the cooking as I'll be on an airplane.
My job is to do final shopping tonight :-)
And for those of you who think Thai is a bit adventurous, Terry will be cooking
you a special Chilli.
Cheers,
Stefan
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 8:41 AM
To: ellie :); [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TSA Spring Convention FAQ's
All,
the fabulous TSA Spring Convention is nigh upon us and BEAUTIFUL weather is
predicted!
What better way to celebrate the Rites of Spring by sitting inside a church to
listen to some great and informative talks or get underground at some of the
TCC's caves they wonderfully manage and are allowing us to access?!
Hope to see everyone here at the Convention and, please, bring guests and
prospective members.
I'm predicting a huge turnout and a memorable event that will be talked about
for years to come.
A HUMONGOUS thanks to Ellie for a superior job and great attitude in organizing
and riding herd on this event, Mike Walsh and the Texas Cave Conservancy for
hosting and helping to organize this event, Diana Tomchick and Bill Steele for
organizing the talks, Lyndon Tiu and the Greater Houston Grotto for running
registration, and Stefan and the CCC (Caver Cooking Crew) for preparing what
will be a truly delicious Thai feast.
Me?!
I just stayed out of the way!
One point I haven't seen mentioned and I want to emphasize:
5:00 Registration at TCC Headquarters (no register, no food)
6:30 Dinner served at TCC headquarters, bring your own utensils
(<-----------!!!!)
So, all of you denizens of the Center of the Caving Universe, come out for the
day or for the whole weekend for, what promises to be, a truly fun and historic
event!
See y'all then!
Mark Alman
TSA Chair and Cheerleader
--
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
medium. Thank you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Locklear said:
>My favorite ladder, and I have only seen
pictures of it, is the one made out of a giant industrial chain-link belt.
That would probably be the bulldozer
track hanging in the entrance of Cueva del
Tecolote in Purificación. The most remarkable
ladder I have ever heard of (but not seen, of
course) was the 20-plus-meter-long log
ladder/ramp/stairs in Bolonchén, Campeche in use
in the mid 1800's. You can read about it in AMCS
Activities Newsletter 20, p. 88-92 (1993), which
contains a famous drawing of said ladder. A
slightly different version is online several
places, including
<http://www.arqueomex.com/S2N3nBOLONCH83.html>
and
<http://www.smith.edu/library/libs/rarebook/exhibitions/catherwood/plate20.htm>.
Mark Minton
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bolonchen was put on the map by Stephens and Catherwood. Recommend a visit
the next time you are in the Yucatan. A little off the beaten path but hey
that is what travel is all about.
Preston
----------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Minton" <[email protected]>
To: "David" <[email protected]>; "Cavers Texas"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 10:35 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Famous Cave Ladders
David Locklear said:
>My favorite ladder, and I have only seen
pictures of it, is the one made out of a giant industrial chain-link belt.
That would probably be the bulldozer
track hanging in the entrance of Cueva del
Tecolote in Purificaci�n. The most remarkable
ladder I have ever heard of (but not seen, of
course) was the 20-plus-meter-long log
ladder/ramp/stairs in Bolonch�n, Campeche in use
in the mid 1800's. You can read about it in AMCS
Activities Newsletter 20, p. 88-92 (1993), which
contains a famous drawing of said ladder. A
slightly different version is online several
places, including
<http://www.arqueomex.com/S2N3nBOLONCH83.html>
and
<http://www.smith.edu/library/libs/rarebook/exhibitions/catherwood/plate20.htm>.
Mark Minton
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
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