texascavers Digest 21 Feb 2010 19:41:35 -0000 Issue 979

Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:41:43 -0800 (PST) 

texascavers Digest 21 Feb 2010 19:41:35 -0000 Issue 979

Topics (messages 13758 through 13783):

Re: Lemons Ranch Cave
        13758 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
        13762 by: Brian Riordan

Bad air caves
        13759 by: David
        13760 by: Brian Riordan
        13761 by: Stefan Creaser
        13766 by: Gill Edigar
        13767 by: Scott Boyd
        13770 by: Rod Goke
        13771 by: Gill Edigar
        13772 by: John Brooks

October, 2007 Bat Killings at Carter Caves State Park, KY Result of "Ignorance"
        13763 by: Preston Forsythe

Re: a new camera
        13764 by: Pete Lindsley
        13765 by: Pete Lindsley

Web site melt down
        13768 by: Bill Bentley

Histo related
        13769 by: David

cave guns
        13773 by: David

3D cave-diving movie
        13774 by: David

cave conservation related
        13775 by: David

a caver in the news
        13776 by: David
        13780 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com
        13782 by: Barb Coons (Capocy)
        13783 by: Nico Escamilla

Government Canyon related
        13777 by: David

interesting Malaysian article
        13778 by: David

karst zoning ?
        13779 by: David

Honey Creek Cave trips March 13 and April 3
        13781 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message --- 
What were we talking about?!
 
 
aMrk

________________________________

From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Fri 2/19/2010 1:20 PM
To: Andy Zenker; mark gee
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Lemons Ranch Cave



 

 

High CO2 can cause daine bramage and make you forget things.

 

G

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
So far I've escaped most of the adverse effects of bad air caving- knock on
wood.  Ooh!  I think someones at the door, excuse me.

-Brain

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 1:24 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

>  What were we talking about?!
>
>
> aMrk
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* Fri 2/19/2010 1:20 PM
> *To:* Andy Zenker; mark gee
> *Cc:* [email protected]
> *Subject:* RE: [Texascavers] Lemons Ranch Cave
>
>
>
>
>
> High CO2 can cause daine bramage and make you forget things.
>
>
>
> G
>



-- 
Brian Riordan
979-218-8009 (Mobile)
[email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Some caves can probably be ventilated using blower fans and hoses.

But at what point do you decide to carry oxygen tanks and a breathing
mask?

Also, is regular scuba gear the best way to do this?

Or is it better to use some kind of industrial apparatus like they
use cleaning chemical tanks?

Or what about what the Mt. Everest climbers use to breath?  I think
some of them carry small tanks made out of Kevlar?

I think caver's entering known bad air caves should carry a bottle
of Spare Air.

     http://www.spareair.com/images1/underwater.jpg

Some may call this a Pony Bottle.   Right?

What is a good size of bottle to carry?    20 cubic feet?

Smaller tanks are available in 6, 8, and 13 cubic feet.

The link below shows a solution:

      http://www.scuba.com/shop/display.asp_id_043133

Can anyone purchase these tanks from a scuba store?
Or do you have to show a certification?

These kind of things are not mentioned in caving books.

Someone could write a good article for a caving magazine.

Back in the 80's, there was an article about some Texas cavers
surveying Skull Cave, and wearing oxygen tanks.   I think that
was considered "extreme caving," back in those days.


Ref:

http://www.ehso.com/RespProtection_Glos.htm

David Locklear


P.S.    On a semi-related note, if anyone would like a
geology book on the Ellenburger limestone, I found an original
copy of the 1946 UT Austin publication at 1/2 Price Books
for $ 30.    It briefly mentions Gorman Cave, and has a
thorough geology of the area.   I haven't bought it yet.


Ref:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_cylinder

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
SCUBA certifications are only really useful for companies that run guide and
boat services, for insurance sake.  You'll have no problem buying whatever
equipment you want from a SCUBA shop.

I worked on a human-powered submarine in college which operated fully
flooded.  The pilot had a SCUBA tank for his primary oxygen supply, but had
a 6 minute supply of air (at shallow depths) that came with a mouth piece
and was strapped to his forearm as a contingency- very light.  Not quite as
cool as what Obi-wan used in that travesty of a movie "The Phantom Menace",
but pretty slick regardless.
-B

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 1:49 PM, David <[email protected]> wrote:

> Some caves can probably be ventilated using blower fans and hoses.
>
> But at what point do you decide to carry oxygen tanks and a breathing
> mask?
>
> Also, is regular scuba gear the best way to do this?
>
> Or is it better to use some kind of industrial apparatus like they
> use cleaning chemical tanks?
>
> Or what about what the Mt. Everest climbers use to breath?  I think
> some of them carry small tanks made out of Kevlar?
>
> I think caver's entering known bad air caves should carry a bottle
> of Spare Air.
>
>     http://www.spareair.com/images1/underwater.jpg
>
> Some may call this a Pony Bottle.   Right?
>
> What is a good size of bottle to carry?    20 cubic feet?
>
> Smaller tanks are available in 6, 8, and 13 cubic feet.
>
> The link below shows a solution:
>
>      http://www.scuba.com/shop/display.asp_id_043133
>
> Can anyone purchase these tanks from a scuba store?
> Or do you have to show a certification?
>
> These kind of things are not mentioned in caving books.
>
> Someone could write a good article for a caving magazine.
>
> Back in the 80's, there was an article about some Texas cavers
> surveying Skull Cave, and wearing oxygen tanks.   I think that
> was considered "extreme caving," back in those days.
>
>
> Ref:
>
> http://www.ehso.com/RespProtection_Glos.htm
>
> David Locklear
>
>
> P.S.    On a semi-related note, if anyone would like a
> geology book on the Ellenburger limestone, I found an original
> copy of the 1946 UT Austin publication at 1/2 Price Books
> for $ 30.    It briefly mentions Gorman Cave, and has a
> thorough geology of the area.   I haven't bought it yet.
>
>
> Ref:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_cylinder
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>


-- 
Brian Riordan
979-218-8009 (Mobile)
[email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David [mailto:[email protected]] 
>
> Some caves can probably be ventilated using blower fans and hoses.
>
> But at what point do you decide to carry oxygen tanks and a breathing
> mask?
>
> Also, is regular scuba gear the best way to do this?


I find that when I do this I keep tripping over stuff with my fins...
;-)



-- 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Stefan Creaser <[email protected]>wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David [mailto:[email protected]]
> > But at what point do you decide to carry oxygen tanks and a breathing
> > mask?
> > Also, is regular scuba gear the best way to do this?
>
>
> I find that when I do this I keep tripping over stuff with my fins...;-)


When caving in flippers you should turn them around backwards so the fins
are in a trailing position. It reduces tripping and falling down by a good
bit and doesn't look nearly so silly as high-stepping with um to the front.
It is a good idea to keep your BC inflated, though, just as a cushion in
case you do fall down or slip into some water; God forbid.
--Ediger

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
You might need full SCUBA gear for a cave like Honey Creek, but there's not 
enuff water in Lemons Ranch to need fins or a wetsuit...

There's some tight squeezes in Lemons Ranch where it might be pretty tough to 
try and wear an air tank. I suppose you could drag it along with you though.

Scott

--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Stefan Creaser <[email protected]> wrote:

From: Stefan Creaser <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Bad air caves
To: "David" <[email protected]>, "Cavers Texas" 
<[email protected]>
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 1:56 PM



> -----Original Message-----
> From: David [mailto:[email protected]] 
>
> Some caves can probably be ventilated using blower fans and hoses.
>
> But at what point do you decide to carry oxygen tanks and a breathing
> mask?
>
> Also, is regular scuba gear the best way to do this?


I find that when I do this I keep tripping over stuff with my fins...
;-)

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or you could just walk backwards and equip your helmet with small rear view mirrors, like those used by some bicyclists. Better keep that BC inflated with this technique, too.  ;-)

Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: Gill Edigar
Sent: Feb 19, 2010 6:58 PM
To: Stefan Creaser
Cc: David , Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Bad air caves

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Stefan Creaser <[email protected]> wrote:


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David [mailto:[email protected]]
> But at what point do you decide to carry oxygen tanks and a breathing
> mask?
> Also, is regular scuba gear the best way to do this?


I find that when I do this I keep tripping over stuff with my fins...;-)

When caving in flippers you should turn them around backwards so the fins are in a trailing position. It reduces tripping and falling down by a good bit and doesn't look nearly so silly as high-stepping with um to the front. It is a good idea to keep your BC inflated, though, just as a cushion in case you do fall down or slip into some water; God forbid. 
--Ediger

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 7:16 AM, Rod Goke <[email protected]> wrote:

> Or you could just walk backwards and equip your helmet with small rear view
> mirrors, like those used by some bicyclists. Better keep that BC inflated
> with this technique, too.  ;-)
>

Yes, Rod. I think it was in 1981 that, after much friendly encouragement and
blatant social pressure, I finally drew up the plans for a
180-degree-coverage segmented mirror array (complete with those small bubble
mirrors to cover the all-important 'blind spot') which mounted on the
carbide lamp bracket on the front of a helmet and greatly improved the
visibility factor that had always plagued back-walking cave exploration in
the past--whether wearing flippers or not. But it was, alas and ironically,
the victim of electrical innovation. As people began using electric lamps
instead of carbides, the helmet-mounted lamp brackets fell into disuse and
the 'back-walking device' fell into near oblivion. Given all this renewed
interest thanks to Locklear and his techno-friends, the time to resurrect it
may be close at hand.

As far as the BC goes, I remember at least one trip in those days where
several poor Aggie cavers came equipped with plastic soda bottles duct taped
around their chests in lieu of an expensive BC, resembling (in retrospect)
the vests now worn by those participating in the growing sport of
suicide-bombing. I respect their ingenuity.
--Ediger

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I will defend the honor of cyclists everywhere.....only "Fred's" use 
mirrors.....
If a cave requires a scuba tank.....it had better be underwater.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 20, 2010, at 7:16 AM, Rod Goke <[email protected]> wrote:

Or you could just walk backwards and equip your helmet with small rear view 
mirrors, like those used by some bicyclists. Better keep that BC inflated with 
this technique, too.  ;-)

Rod
-----Original Message----- 
From: Gill Edigar 
Sent: Feb 19, 2010 6:58 PM 
To: Stefan Creaser 
Cc: David , Cavers Texas 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Bad air caves 

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Stefan Creaser <[email protected]> wrote:


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David [mailto:[email protected]]
> But at what point do you decide to carry oxygen tanks and a breathing
> mask?
> Also, is regular scuba gear the best way to do this?


I find that when I do this I keep tripping over stuff with my fins...;-)

When caving in flippers you should turn them around backwards so the fins are 
in a trailing position. It reduces tripping and falling down by a good bit and 
doesn't look nearly so silly as high-stepping with um to the front. It is a 
good idea to keep your BC inflated, though, just as a cushion in case you do 
fall down or slip into some water; God forbid. 
--Ediger
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Ashland, Kentucky The Independent


Published: February 17, 2010 11:24 pm

Attorney: Bat killings result of 'ignorance'


ASHLAND - An attorney representing one of the two men scheduled to be
sentenced today in federal court for the 2007 killings of more than 100
endangered bats at Carter Caves State Resort Park says his client's
misdeeds were borne of "ignorance rather than malice."

In a sentencing memorandum, attorney Michael Campbell also argues that
his client, Lonnie Wales Skaggs, deserves leniency because of lingering
emotional trauma resulting from abuse and neglect he suffered as a child
at the hands of alcoholic parents, and because he is the product of
culture that views the "indiscriminate killing" of bats and other
species of animals as not only acceptable, but expected.

Skaggs, 31, and his co-defendant, Kaleb Dee Morgan Carpenter, both
pleaded guilty in December to violating the federal Endangered Species
Act by crushing 105 endangered Indiana bats that were hibernating in
Laurel Cave with rocks, flashlights and their feet. The killings
occurred on Oct. 26 and 27, 2007, and drew horror and outrage from
wildlife-protection organizations.

Skaggs and Carpenter are scheduled to be sentenced beginning at 10 a.m.
today by U.S. Magistrate Judge Edward B. Atkins. Both face up to a year
in prison and a fine of up to $1,000.

Carpenter is the son of Skaggs' mother's boyfriend, according to court
records. Carpenter's age is not listed.

Twenty-three bats were killed the first night; 82 the second. In a
sentencing memorandum filed on Carpenter's behalf, Carpenter's attorney,
Matthew Warnock of Greenup, states that his client did not participate
in the second round of killings.

According to Campbell's sentencing memo, Skaggs' mother, Bonnie Skaggs,
drank heavily while she was pregnant with Lonnie Skaggs, which caused
him to suffer from mental deficiencies because of fetal alcohol syndrome.

Skaggs also suffered through a hellish childhood during which he often
witnessed his father abuse his mother "as both of (his parents) abused
the bottle," Campbell wrote.

"Lonnie's childhood was marked by violence, alcohol abuse and the
constant need for protection from both his father's violent outbursts
and his mother's neglect. Unfortunately, he never got the protection
which he needed."

Skaggs' parents divorced when he was 14. His mother moved out, leaving
Skaggs in the home with his father, Ronnie Skaggs. After his mother
left, his father's beatings and verbal abuse "not only continued, but
escalated," Campbell wrote.

Skaggs, who quit school in the ninth grade, began abusing alcohol
himself in his teens and subsequently had a series of minor scrapes with
the laws that stemmed from his drinking, Campbell wrote. Skaggs also was
drunk on the nights of the bat-killings, according to the memo.

Campbell also wrote that Skaggs was unable to grasp the significance of
killing the bats because he is "the product of a culture which teaches
that bats are bad.

"Lonnie looked upon killing the bats as other citizens might look upon
eliminating crows from a cornfield," the memo reads. "As difficult as it
may be for many of us to understand this way of thinking, it is folly
and foolishness to ignore its existence in eastern Kentucky.

"It is the contention of this defendant ... that the crime is one of
ignorance rather than malice."

Campbell proposes that Skaggs receive a 105-day sentence - one day for
each of the bats - and that it be probated on the condition that he
write, in collaboration with his attorney, a guest commentary on the
consequences of killing bats for publication in area newspapers. He also
recommends that Atkins require Skaggs to undergo substance abuse treatment. 

Count Gordon Birkhimer among those who believe that Skaggs and Carpenter
need to spend some time behind bars for their misdeeds.

Birkhimer is president of the National Speleological Society, the
world's largest caving organization. In a letter that was made a part of
the court record, he urges Atkins to impose the maximum penalties on the
two defendants.

The bat-killings "were truly an evil deed and these reprehensible
individuals who must be held accountable and made an example to avoid
any future catastrophes," he wrote. "The thought of the defenseless and
helpless being murdered in such a way is very disturbing and makes one
wonder what other violent acts they might be capable of."

Laurel Cave is one of four at Carter Caves that is home to Indiana bats.
All four locations have been deemed critical to the survival of the species. 

According to Birkhimer, the Laurel Cave bat-killings could not have
occurred at a worse time. A disease known as White Nose Syndrome has
wiped out huge numbers of the animals, he wrote, and the killings
applied more pressure to an already-stressed population.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- One disadvantage of the Pentax Optio compared to the Canon is that the W60 does not support RAW format, which many users of Adobe Photoshop and Lightroom may prefer. (Go here [http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/cameraraw.html ] to see the cameras supporting RAW format.)
Two small Canon cameras supporting RAW are the Canon PowerShot S90 and the Canon PowerShot SG11 but I'm not sure if either are waterproof and will focus down to 1 cm which are two of my requirements. I think the Olympus Stylus 300 and 400 are waterproof - any cavers out there using one of these that cares to comment? 

 - Pete

On Feb 18, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Fofo wrote:

Hi!
I use the Pentax Optio too (but the W30). I think it's very good for in-cave use, it's waterproof and relatively rugged (I use a neoprene sleeve too) and compact enough that often I just leave it hanging from my neck (tucked in the suit), ready to snap then next picture. And it doesn't have a moving lens cover or lens, which tend to have a gritty death in caves.
At the International Congress in Kerrville, Bill Frantz talked about the "Always Ready" photography kit, which is pretty much this setup, but adding a flash and Firefly in a small clear Pelican box.
The Pentax Optio is nice for caving, but I think that Canon has better picture quality. The PowerShot D10 would be great, but it's bulkier, so it's not a comfortable camera for leaving around your neck. 

    - Fofo

Pete Lindsley wrote, on 18/2/10 8:55:
I didn't see the waterproof Pentax Optio W60 mentioned yet. I have had mine now for a year and a half and keep it in a small belt pouch with an extra SD card and battery in the small pocket. I picked it as my light weight cave camera because it has a really nice close- focusing ability plus the other more common features. I found a small imported slave flash on e-Bay (~$15) with a choice of 1,2,3 or 4 trigger flashes for use with digital cameras. It's apart now because I want to move the slave sensor from the "front" to the "side" so it will be more versatile for cave photography. Another caver modified a similar unit that works well by moving the slave sensor to the "back" of the flash. I prefer the selector switch, particularly when working with other photographers, to the much more sensitive FireFly model because it's hard to remember the programming sequence for the FF when you are at the end of a long day in the cave. 
- Pete
On Feb 18, 2010, at 6:45 AM, Chad Fenner wrote:
The digital Firefly is designed to "count" the flashes and not trigger the strobe until the focus/exposure pre-flashes are complete. It can be programed for a various number of flashes based on the specific camera you are using. The down side is that it has a long (10ish seconds? Can't remember for sure) recycle time, meaning you cannot take 2 pictures close together. And be careful using olf school flashes with new digital cameras. The trigger voltage on the old model 283/285 is over 200 volts, and many of todays digital cameras (assuming you have a hot shoe to begin with) cannot handle that much voltage. Check your camera specs. There are newer versions of the 283/285 designed for digital cameras with a lower trigger voltage. 
Sent on the go from my Peek
CF
-------------------------------------
Chris Vreeland<[email protected]> wrote:
Firefly makes a version of their slave that's designed to work with
digital cameras -- the timing on them is somehow different from film
cameras.
I have a hot-shoe adaptor for my Nikon D50 which causes it to function
with my Old Skool Vivitar 285, but with a point & shoot built in
flash, one of those digital Fireflys and one extra flash might not be
too much to tote with a compact camera.
The touch-screen seems worrisome, though. I thing it'd get pretty
dirty pretty quick.
My daughter's Olympus waterproof/shockproof camera couldn't withstand
the shock of being carted around in her book bag, so I wouldn't put
too much stock in them, either.
On Feb 18, 2010, at 1:34 AM, David wrote:

Here is a new camera that would easily fit in your cave pack:

http://www.digitalcamerareview.com/default.asp?newsID=4262

I doubt the flash is bright enough for cave photography, but is any
pocket size camera?
There is probably some cave passage where you don't want to drag photo 
equipment, like beyond the sump in Honeycreek.   This camera
might come in handy there.

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Yes, that dust problem ruins a lot of pictures for me. If you have a slave flash that is much stronger than the on-camera flash and can side or back-light the scene you can often over-ride the spots. Remember to use the trick of holding your finger over part of the flash to reduce the direct lighting. I have found that the circular dust spot tool in Adobe Lightroom is really easy to clean up those "almost good" pictures when you get back home from the cave. 

 - Pete

On Feb 18, 2010, at 11:05 AM, Mark Minton wrote:
Before we got the Canon PowerShot D10 we used a Pentax Optio WP, which was the first model in that line from several years ago. It performed well but the Canon seems superior. Of course there have been many upgrades since the original WP, so I can't say how the latest models compare. (There's now a W80, which is 12 MP, same as the Canon.) One of the nicest things about the Canon is that the lens protrudes from the rest of the camera body. While this makes the camera bulkier, it also somewhat shields the lens from more direct light of the flash, and that greatly reduces the white dots that plague photos with an on-camera flash when there is mist or dust in the air. 

Mark Minton

At 11:55 AM 2/18/2010, Pete Lindsley wrote:

I didn't see the waterproof Pentax Optio W60 mentioned yet. I have had
mine now for a year and a half and keep it in a small belt pouch with
an extra SD card and battery in the small pocket. I picked it as my
light weight cave camera because it has a really nice close-focusing
ability plus the other more common features. I found a small imported
slave flash on e-Bay (~$15) with a choice of 1,2,3 or 4 trigger
flashes for use with digital cameras. It's apart now because I want to
move the slave sensor from the "front" to the "side" so it will be
more versatile for cave photography. Another caver modified a similar
unit that works well by moving the slave sensor to the "back" of the
flash. I prefer the selector switch, particularly when working with
other photographers, to the much more sensitive FireFly model because
it's hard to remember the programming sequence for the FF when you are
at the end of a long day in the cave.

- Pete


Please reply to [email protected]
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--- Begin Message --- 
Greetings Cavers, 
        Along about Feb 5th through the 9th, 2010 The company who I have had 
hosting my web site for the last few years started having some issues with the 
mailing list of which I provide 5 to the caving community for the use by cavers 
for cavers. While it has run pretty much trouble free since I signed up a few 
years ago, I guess I was lucky that there were not more problems sooner. 
Anyways after giving them ample time to correct the problems with the mailing 
lists rejecting messages, it became obvious after over a week of it working 
very very sporadically and certainly not very reliably that it was hopeless and 
the technical support was inept. Yesterday after my final communication with 
their tech support who have still not got back to me as of this writing, I 
decided to look elsewhere for a new web hosting service. I found one and set 
everything up and initiated the DNS transfers at 1PM local time. I have started 
uploading the web pages and have completely rebuilt the mailing lists 
practically from scratch.... Needless to say I will work through out the night 
to get everything back like it was. The archives which dated back several years 
are lost forever and that is a shame, I have them archived in a 4 GB zipped 
file and they may be salvageable, but I probably won't fool with it. 
I am sorry this happened and I hope the down time was not too big of an 
inconvenience for anyone.
Thanks,
Bill

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Here is a web-site with some very basic info on Histo:

     http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/histoplasmosis/DS00517

Symptoms:

     http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/histoplasmosis/DS00517/DSECTION=symptoms

Causes:

     http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/histoplasmosis/DS00517/DSECTION=causes

In the left column, there are links to:  Risk Factors, Complications,
Treatments, etc.

On a related note,

Have you ever noticed when caving that you can see your breath in the
air, and that
there are fine particles of dust floating in that stream of breath?
 All those unknown
particles can enter your lungs and get lodged in your lung tissue.  So, it
is a good idea to wear a dust mask when caving in dusty caves.  In some caves,
it might be better to wear a respirator mask with filter elements.

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-RST-64013-Premier-Silicon-Respirator/dp/B002EVP5Q2

You are probably breathing just as much crap around your home or
workplace, especially
if you are mowing the yard, and even worse, if you unfortunate enough
to live near an industrial plant that is spitting out air pollution.

Ironically, patients with respiratory ailments have been confined in
caves as a form of treatment.   Maybe those caves were too humid to be
dusty?

Feel free to correct any of the above.

David Locklear

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Starting Monday, you will be able to take your caving guns inside
almost all federally
owned caves.   The exceptions are the tour caves.

You will need to have a concealed permit and make sure that the state
you are caving in
accepts your state's permit, or you will have to apply for a permit in
that state.

So what size gun do you pack?

A 60 caliber hand-gun would be too big for most caving packs.

A 50 caliber ought to do the trick:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nu4csc5kbA/0.jpg


I hope you can sense that I am mocking this new regulation.


So let's say you in a caving group hiking to Madonna Cave and you are
all packing heat.
You get to the cave, suit up, and then what?    Do you all leave your
guns in the entrance?
What if you come out of the cave to find some shady characters holding
your guns at you?
So I guess you take the guns in far enough so that that does not happen.

Can anybody think of a reason other than snakes to carry a gun on a
hike to a federally owned cave?   A bear ?   A mountain lion ?   A
wolf or coyote?   A fugitive hiding in a cave?

I think the ammunition should be carried in a separate compartment of
the back-pack, and the gun should be in a Pelican case.

I think the chances are more likely that more people are going to be
accidentally shot ( and probably kids ), than the guns being used to
defend in a situation.

I don't think cavers should carry guns on their hike to a
"federally-owned" cave.

But if some caver chose to do so, would he or she be, disrespected?

I would encourage any caver with me that wanted to carry a gun on the
hike, to leave it at the car and locked up.    ( This is all
theoretical, as I would have to be going caving! )

If he said no, then I would tell him I am not going caving.    If that
failed,  then I would want to make sure the gun was hidden beyond the
twilight zone, under a rock, and covered with dirt.

I see no reason to take a gun on a short hike, like Cottonwood Cave,
or Hidden Cave?    Those are BLM caves though, and all National Forest
lands have had an "open carry," policy for some time.    Right?
Has that policy ever produced a gun related issue with a cave trip?

David Locklear

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--- Begin Message --- 
A movie is being made by filmmakers associated with Avatar.

It is called, "Sanctum."

One of its film units is working in Australian caves using the
same 3D video cameras used for Avatar.

http://images.smh.com.au/ftsmh/ffximage/2010/02/20/sanctum_wideweb__470x311,0.jpg

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/arts/james-cameron-backs-alister-griersons-30m-3-d-dive-adventure-sanctum/story-e6frg8pf-1225766193896

http://www.firstshowing.net/2009/09/10/camerons-underwater-3-d-drama-sanctum-coming-2010/

Sounds like it will be in movie theaters by the end of the year.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Here is a story today from Canada:

     http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/725117

Ref:

     http://www.friendsoferamosakarst.org/

Note they get together for a formal dinner dance.

Here is one of the cave entrances there:

     http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3619/3447406807_55373577dd.jpg

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
This news article is from Saturday:

   http://www.sitnews.us/0210news/021810/021810_caving.html

So how does one become recognized as a state's "foremost caver?"

By the number of caver Facebook friends they have?

If so, we have 2 foremost cavers in Texas.

I think you would have to hold the prestigious Lew Bicking Award,
to be considered, "the state's foremost caver."     I can name at
least 2 or 3 active Texas cavers that have that.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
>> So how does one become recognized as a state's "foremost caver?" <<

My guess would be by actually going in caves and not just talking about it.

Bill


---- David <[email protected]> wrote: 
> This news article is from Saturday:
> 
>    http://www.sitnews.us/0210news/021810/021810_caving.html
> 
> So how does one become recognized as a state's "foremost caver?"
> 
> By the number of caver Facebook friends they have?
> 
> If so, we have 2 foremost cavers in Texas.
> 
> I think you would have to hold the prestigious Lew Bicking Award,
> to be considered, "the state's foremost caver."     I can name at
> least 2 or 3 active Texas cavers that have that.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hey David, Thanks!!
Steve is a great friend of ours and indeed, an awesome caver (as is his wife 
Rachel).  We've been missing them this season in Hawaii - they normally come on 
our for a few weeks to map lava tubes but this year things got a little quirky.

Barb Coons

---------- Original Message ----------
From: David <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Subject: [Texascavers] a caver in the news
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 00:56:57 -0600

This news article is from Saturday:

   http://www.sitnews.us/0210news/021810/021810_caving.html

So how does one become recognized as a state's "foremost caver?"

By the number of caver Facebook friends they have?

If so, we have 2 foremost cavers in Texas.

I think you would have to hold the prestigious Lew Bicking Award,
to be considered, "the state's foremost caver."     I can name at
least 2 or 3 active Texas cavers that have that.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]



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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Amen!

On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 8:22 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:

> >> So how does one become recognized as a state's "foremost caver?" <<
>
> My guess would be by actually going in caves and not just talking about it.
>
> Bill
>
>
> ---- David <[email protected]> wrote:
> > This news article is from Saturday:
> >
> >    http://www.sitnews.us/0210news/021810/021810_caving.html
> >
> > So how does one become recognized as a state's "foremost caver?"
> >
> > By the number of caver Facebook friends they have?
> >
> > If so, we have 2 foremost cavers in Texas.
> >
> > I think you would have to hold the prestigious Lew Bicking Award,
> > to be considered, "the state's foremost caver."     I can name at
> > least 2 or 3 active Texas cavers that have that.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Government Canyon was in the news Friday.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/community/northwest/84603197.html

I guess this is all old news to most of you.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Here is a recent article about a caver, Hymeir Kamarudin, in Malaysia.

http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2010/2/2/lifefocus/5529442&sec=lifefocus

http://thestar.com.my/archives/2010/2/2/lifefocus/p6Hymeir.jpg

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Imagine a municipality zoning a certain district specifically for karst
issues?'

That is what they are about to do in one county in Virginia:

http://www.loudoun.gov/Default.aspx?tabid=2542

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Good morning, Texas cavers,

On February 13 we had a great turnout of properly equipped and spirited cavers
to help deliver cave diving gear to the upstream HS sump, six hours of travel
from the shaft entrance, of our state's longest cave. Thanks again to everyone 
who was there. However, we aborted the trip just an hour into it because the 
water was higher than expected.

We have rescheduled the trip for March 13, with a second trip to be held on 
April
3, to retrieve the dive gear. This is orginal exporation you will be supporting.
Cave divers Jean "Creature" Krecja and James Brown will do a dive on March 20th
through the 1,435 foot HS Sump, traverse about 1,000 feet of air-filler passage
only they have seen and mapped, and dive a second sump, which has not been 
entered 
yet.

We need more people for the March 13 and April 3 trips. You will need a wetsuit,
which can be rented from a scuba store.

Here's who I have down so far. My apologies if someone is planning to be there
and you're not on my list. I've been travelling a lot with my job lately, and 
I may have failed to get someone on the list who has contacted me.


MARCH 13

James Brown
Sandi Calhoun
Jared Fuller         
Gerry Geletzke  
Kristina Hager    
Jean "Creature" Krecja
Bill Steele
Ellie Thoene
Diana Tomchick
 
(Would like to have 24 cavers, so have 13 to go)

APRIL 3

James Brown
Sandi Calhoun
Michael Cicherski
Ben Hutchins        
Creature
Niki Lake               
Ellie Thoene
Drew Wendeborn 

(14 to go)

If you're an able caver, this the trip for you. If you're worried about 
getting cold, you won't, because you won't be waiting on the divers. You
will go there, turn around, and head back to the entrance. The trips 
will be around 12 hours long.

Join us,

Bill Steele
Irving, Texas

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