texascavers Digest 11 Dec 2009 18:55:42 -0000 Issue 909
Topics (messages 12876 through 12886):
Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA and Save My Sanity -
DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG
12876 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
12883 by: Louise Power
12884 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
Re: win your weight in Petzl gear... (or help me win)
12877 by: Mark Minton
Re: A Brinco Christmas
12878 by: Mark Minton
Re: [arte_y_rupestre] [Aguascalientes, Mexico] civilizaci�n anterior a las
tribus Chichimecas
12879 by: John Greer
Re: lunar lava tubes
12880 by: Mark Minton
Re: caver/Indiana Bats in the news
12881 by: Alex Sproul
Re: crazy ants
12882 by: Louise Power
12885 by: Fritz Holt
12886 by: Stefan Creaser
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Geary, I think I will!
Thank you, too, for coming over to the dark side.
Mark
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:10 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; [email protected]
Subject: RE: Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA and Save
My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG
Mark,
That was such a well written, funny, and sad post, that I went and
changed my subscription from mail to electronic copy. Not sure why I
hadn't done that earlier.
Thanks, and have another drink on me.
Geary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
Hope Buddy has a clear tract by now.
Just a couple of things. Please don't abuse us public servants. We have our own
problems and the out of sort public is just one of them. Believe it or not,
sometimes we're not responsible for the evil that befalls everyone.
Also, I have a question. You said: "After several gyrations, calculations, and
scratching of his head and my bald one..." I just want to know why the guy at
the post office was scratching your head. Seems like an assault issue to me.
Oh yes, and don't put TCs in the cat box. They're hard to remove when they get
all wet and stinky.
Have a better day today. It is Friday, after all.
Louise
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, Louise.
I'll comment below:
________________________________
From: Louise Power [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Fri 12/11/2009 12:41 PM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the TSA and
Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG
Hi Mark,
Hope Buddy has a clear tract by now.
We'll see when I get home this PM.
Just a couple of things. Please don't abuse us public servants. We have our own
problems and the out of sort public is just one of them. Believe it or not,
sometimes we're not responsible for the evil that befalls everyone.
Agreed. My son is a public servant (firefighter and paramedic) and oh, the
stories HE could tell you!
Also, I have a question. You said: "After several gyrations, calculations, and
scratching of his head and my bald one..." I just want to know why the guy at
the post office was scratching your head. Seems like an assault issue to me.
Good point! Maybe, that is why I was getting so irritated.
Oh yes, and don't put TCs in the cat box. They're hard to remove when they get
all wet and stinky.
And the pages stick together, but, the gloss is easier on their feet.
Have a better day today. It is Friday, after all.
I will and I am.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
Nice photo. I voted for you. Good luck!
Mark Minton
Hi,
For those of you who haven't heard yet: there is a Petzl photo/video
contest, you can win your weight in Petzl gear.
And, you could vote five stars for my entry, if you wanted (it's
just a mouse click :)):
http://concours.tikka2.com/photo.php?id=400e86cb2ccc9f89a0fb0de82d46a0d4&lang=us
Cheers,
David
You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Purificación mountains will be
teaming with cavers this Christmas! I'll have a
group of 8 at Los Toros (west of Arroyo
Luna). We'll be camping 500 meters deep and
pushing the bottom of the system. Bill Steele
has 15 for his recon of Mesas Juárez. Who knows
how many will be at Brinco. People are welcome
to stop by Los Toros for a look at the second deepest cave in the area.
Mark Minton
Some would say that it's a little late to be
making caving plans, but I know for sure that
planning is always a dynamic thing.
I will be going up to Conrado Castillo,
Tamaulipas, Mexico, home of the 95 kilometer
long world-class Sistema Purificion, around the
21st December and returning after New Years.
There are over 2000 unchecked leads and a lot of
new caves and pits on the surface that need to be checked.
Anyone who can get a crew together to go up
there and do some caving is welcome.
I have room for 2 or 3 cavers leaving from
Austin or points south. Gary Franklin
<[email protected]> putting a trip as
well and has room for untold thousands (well, 6
or so). Teams from all over the state or country are welcome.
This area is in Mexico so you will need to have
a passport to get back into the US.
Please check in with me for further information
about access, customs, activities, and some
details about you and your crew if plan to go. 410-303-1177
--Ediger
You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FOR THOSE WHO MAY BE INTERESTED.
(Others can simply delete).
Rock Art and archeological studies in the Aguascalientes area.
http://lajornadaaguascalientes.com.mx/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8539&Itemid=4
Modificar� hallazgo en El Ocote libros de historia de Aguascalientes
Domingo, 29/Nov/09 18:18
Que la entidad no fue s�lo un sitio de paso, que la Chichimeca no fue la
primera civilizaci�n que habit� el territorio estatal y que por ello
deber�n
modificarse los libros de historia de Aguascalientes son los principales
resultados de la investigaci�n que, desde el a�o 2000, el equipo de
arque�logos del centro Inah en la entidad, afirm� Ana Mar�a Pelz Mar�n,
arque�loga encargada de coordinar el proyecto desde su inicio.
El hallazgo se realiz� en la zona El Ocote, donde ya desde 1982 se ten�a
conocimiento del abrigo con pinturas rupestres (a�n sin estudiar con
detenimiento) que exist�a, y son restos distribuidos en un espacios de
aproximadamente 60 hect�reas que, si bien es un espacio considerable, "no es
de los sitios m�s grandes que tenemos para el estado", indic� la
especialista.
Se trata de una civilizaci�n anterior a las tribus Chichimecas
(Huachichiles, Zacatecos, Huamares, etc.). "Probablemente sean los
antecesores -sugiri� Pelz Mar�n-, pero tampoco podemos decirlo con una
certeza absoluta" porque los fechamientos con carbono XIV, las
identificaciones de ADN tardar�n todav�a unas semanas y un a�o,
respectivamente, en arrojar resultados m�s precisos.
Adem�s de los vestigios arquitect�nicos, consistentes principalmente en un
�rea ceremonial y otra habitacional, se han encontrado 17 entierros humanos,
uno de ellos de un infante, "restos alimenticios de ma�z y de frijol",
joyer�a y objetos asociados de diferentes materiales, como barro y concha,
entre otros restos.
A decir de la arque�loga, "todo esto nos va a permitir, si no hacer una
reconstrucci�n absoluta de la sociedad que se desarroll� en esa �poca,
s�
por lo menos darnos algunas ideas relacionadas con estas poblaciones".
Por ejemplo, coment�, aunque no se han estudiado "las caracter�sticas
f�sicas de los individuos" como sexo o edad exacta, de los entierros puede
conocerse mucho de su forma de rendir culto; muestra de ello que las
osamentas de adultos est�n flexionados y colocadas sobre un costado,
mientras que la del infante est� sentada. "En la mayor�a de estos
enterramientos hay una caracter�stica muy particular que es la falta de
huesos de pies", agreg�.
Adem�s, al ver los objetos asociados y los materiales de esta y otras
localidades -se est� estudiando si la concha es de la costa oeste o el
pac�fico- se puede afirmar que tuvieron comunicaci�n con civilizaciones de
esos lugares, que probablemente ten�an una organizaci�n social por clases y
que, con base en los restos alimenticios, ya no eran recolectores, sino
agricultores.
Con respecto a las construcciones, previ� Ana Pelz, se podr� definir c�mo
distribu�an las �reas, la convivencia que ten�an, su manera de rendir
culto,
de cocinar, etc.
Apunt� que "en los alrededores podr�amos decir que hab�a otras
poblaciones
tambi�n, contempor�neas a la poblaci�n prehisp�nica del Ocote, que
tambi�n
estaban distribuidas en la regi�n", que es bastante amplia.
Presumiblemente, el asentamiento del Ocote tuvo relaci�n con poblaciones de
lo que hoy es Jalisco, Zacatecas, Guanajuato, etc. "porque vemos muchos
elementos que se identifican en estos lugares (.) a pesar de que no ten�an
los medios de comunicaci�n".
Pelz Mar�n relat� que despu�s de las pinturas, fue hasta entre 1991 y
1994
que arque�logos adscritos al Instituto Nacional de Antropolog�a e Historia
hicieron el levantamiento topogr�fico y posteriormente, en el 2000 se
descubrieron los vestigios arquitect�nicos y entierros humanos con
caracter�sticas muy particulares.
Por la comparaci�n de restos cer�micos que el equipo ha hecho, calcul�
que
las osamentas, los ornamentos y las construcciones halladas datan de entre
los a�os 600 a 900 d.C.; falta que los laboratorios del Distrito Federal den
fechamientos m�s precisos, aunque se espera encontrar incluso vestigios m�s
antiguos.
Coment� que "encontramos que en realidad exist�an muchos sitios con un
asentamiento ya muy estructurado, lo que ser�an ya las poblaciones de
ciertas dimensiones de lo que ser�a la �poca prehisp�nica".
Proyecto "de muy largo plazo" que requiere alta inversi�n
Pelz Mar�n relat� que despu�s de 1982, cuando se tuvo conocimiento del
panel
mayor de pinturas rupestres, fue hasta entre 1991 y 1994 que arque�logos
adscritos al Inah regresaron a la zona para hacer el levantamiento
topol�gico correspondiente y posteriormente fue hasta 2000, cuando ella
lleg� a Aguascalientes tras haber solicitado su cambio del centro Inah de
Morelos, que surgi� el proyecto como tal.
Desde entonces, se ha trabajado por temporadas anuales con duraci�n de seis
a ocho semanas. El proyecto podr�a estar terminado hasta una etapa en la que
pudiera abrirse al p�blico en unos dos a�os, pero la exploraci�n no
estar�a
terminada.
Admiti� que "en cierto modo tiene mucho que ver la cuesti�n de los
recursos"
en la prolongaci�n del trabajo cient�fico y de campo que ha requerido la
zona. Calcul� que en cada uno de los a�os que se ha trabajado, se han
invertido aproximadamente 40 mil pesos, lo que en realidad es muy poco si se
toma en cuenta que deben costearse estudios en otras entidades del pa�s,
pagos para el arque�logo que no est� adscrito y, sobre todo, vigilancia de
la zona, que no est� abierta al p�blico.
Pero adem�s del dinero, la enorme cantidad de trabajo que los laboratorios
del Inah en la capital del pa�s reciben de toda la Rep�blica es otro de los
factores de influencia en la duraci�n del trabajo; a ello se agrega que son
pocos los especialistas con que se cuenta en el estado y espec�ficamente en
el proyecto.
Como ejemplo, est� el hecho de que adem�s de las ya conocidas se sabe de la
existencia de otras pinturas rupestres en la zona, pero como requieren de un
tratamiento especial y estudios de iconograf�a y lenguaje, no han sido
estudiadas a fondo todav�a.
En este proyecto, integran el equipo Ana Mar�a Pelz, el arque�logo
contratado por proyecto Jorge Luis Jim�nez Meza, as� como dos bi�logos de
la
Universidad Aut�noma de Aguascalientes (UAA).
Desde 2005 se solicit� presupuesto espec�fico para el proyecto, mismo con
el cual no se cont� por la situaci�n econ�mica; para 2010, la
indicaci�n es
volver a solicitarlo y hay buenas posibilidades de que sea otorgado, aunque
no ser� un recurso muy elevado.
Para abrirlo al p�blico se requiere adicionalmente presupuesto para
acondicionarlo y de lograr que se abra, ser� el primer sitio arqueol�gico
de
la entidad abierto al turismo.
__,_._,___
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I finally got hold of the original scientific journal
article on that potential lunar lava tube and skylight (Geophys Res
Lett 36, L21206 (2009)). I was particularly interested in how they
estimated the width of the tube at a minimum of 370 m, which would
dwarf any lava tube on earth. It turns out that's not very well
founded. They used structural theory to calculate _maximum_ possible
tube size based on purely physical data like thickness of overburden,
gravity, and tensile strength and density of the rock. Ceiling
thickness can be estimated from the photos and lunar gravity is
known, but they really have no idea about the properties of the lava
there so they used figures from terrestrial lava tubes in
California. Their result was 370 m, but again, that's the maximum
possible for those structural conditions and not based on anything
actually observed. Then they made some arm-waving arguments about
how the tube could be even larger, and suddenly 370 m became the
minimum! Hogwash!
Reminds me of another paper I read one time that began by
saying, "Let us assume x, y, and z...". Then a few pages later they
leapt to a conclusion which they justified by saying, "since we know
x, y, and z...". Circular reasoning at it's best.
Mark Minton
At 11:54 AM 10/28/2009, Mark Minton wrote:
>http://dsc.discovery.com/space/qa/lunar-moon-skylight-carolyn-van-d
er-bogert.html
>http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/10/091026-moon-skyligh
t-lunar-base.html
Did anyone else notice that they claim the lava tube
associated with that skylight should be at least 370 meters
wide?! That would be an unprecedentedly large lave tube. I wonder
how they think they can calculate a width for the tube based on
only the width and depth of the skylight, which are far smaller. I
don't believe it for a minute.
Mark Minton
You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Locklear said:
>I presume this is the same Dave Cowan that is active in the
>Southeastern Cave Conservancy.
Er, Dave is a former director of, and still active in, the West Virginia Cave Conservancy. The
WVCC manages Lobelia Saltpeter Cave, which is owned by SCCi, and Dave is the cave
manager. This may be where the confusion arose.
Dave is actually a Californian, and for many years was active with the Mother Lode Grotto,
until he and wife Sandy retired to Greenbrier County, WV a decade ago.
His effort in prosecuting this lawsuit on behalf of bats is commendable, but was an individual
effort on his part, and not related to the WVCC.
Alex
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got an e-mail from my sister today in response to the article. She lives SE
of San Antonio and says:
We have not seen them here but my friend, XXXX, who lives in Cotulla, about 90
miles south of here, has had them for about 3 years. Her exterminator comes and
sprays and it essentially kills only the ones it hits. They then move the hive
across the street or down into a vacant lot, etc.. Once they are disturbed
again they move back to her house. She is having an influx of them right now.
The only good thing is they do get rid of the fire ants but these are more
invasive than fire ants. They do not sting and that is the another good thing
about them.
I sent her a link on diatomaceous earth,
http://www.dirtworks.net/Diatomaceous-Earth.html and recommended that she send
it to her friend. It may at least help keep them out of her house. I've been
using it for years. Kills pests mechanically, not chemically, so they don't
become immune to it. Good for getting rid of a lot of other pests, too.
Louise
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:38:44 -0600
> Subject: [Texascavers] crazy ants
>
> We'll see. I can't help being suspicious of a press release that
> quotes a professional exterminator, a "market development" person for
> a company that makes a pesticide licensed for use against them, and a
> professor who studies them, presumably with grant money. Notice that
> is says that no bait has been developed specifically for them, not
> that no existing bait works. My personal little bit of conspiracy
> theory.... -- Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: [email protected]
> AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An interesting part of this string is the mention of diatomaceous earth. At one
time I had an above ground pool and am vaguely familiar with this very fine
white powder used in the filter. If kept dry, does it actually kill certain
pests such as fire ants? I assume that 'kills mechanically" means that it gets
on their feet and disrupts some bodily function.
Hopefully Mark Minton or someone can give us more detail.
Fritz
________________________________
From: Louise Power [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 12:26 PM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] crazy ants
I got an e-mail from my sister today in response to the article. She lives SE
of San Antonio and says:
We have not seen them here but my friend, XXXX, who lives in Cotulla, about 90
miles south of here, has had them for about 3 years. Her exterminator comes and
sprays and it essentially kills only the ones it hits. They then move the hive
across the street or down into a vacant lot, etc.. Once they are disturbed
again they move back to her house. She is having an influx of them right now.
The only good thing is they do get rid of the fire ants but these are more
invasive than fire ants. They do not sting and that is the another good thing
about them.
I sent her a link on diatomaceous earth,
http://www.dirtworks.net/Diatomaceous-Earth.html and recommended that she send
it to her friend. It may at least help keep them out of her house. I've been
using it for years. Kills pests mechanically, not chemically, so they don't
become immune to it. Good for getting rid of a lot of other pests, too.
Louise
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:38:44 -0600
> Subject: [Texascavers] crazy ants
>
> We'll see. I can't help being suspicious of a press release that
> quotes a professional exterminator, a "market development" person for
> a company that makes a pesticide licensed for use against them, and a
> professor who studies them, presumably with grant money. Notice that
> is says that no bait has been developed specifically for them, not
> that no existing bait works. My personal little bit of conspiracy
> theory.... -- Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: [email protected]
> AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Fritz,
If you follow the link it tells you what it means by "kills
mechanically" and, hence, why you should keep it dry. Basically it's so
fine it gets into the bugs pores, or otherwise into their anatomy, and
desiccates them, ie. dries 'em out.
Cheers,
Stefan
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 12:48 PM
To: 'Louise Power'; Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] crazy ants
An interesting part of this string is the mention of diatomaceous earth.
At one time I had an above ground pool and am vaguely familiar with this
very fine white powder used in the filter. If kept dry, does it actually
kill certain pests such as fire ants? I assume that 'kills mechanically"
means that it gets on their feet and disrupts some bodily function.
Hopefully Mark Minton or someone can give us more detail.
Fritz
________________________________
From: Louise Power [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 12:26 PM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] crazy ants
I got an e-mail from my sister today in response to the article. She
lives SE of San Antonio and says:
We have not seen them here but my friend, XXXX, who lives in Cotulla,
about 90 miles south of here, has had them for about 3 years. Her
exterminator comes and sprays and it essentially kills only the ones it
hits. They then move the hive across the street or down into a vacant
lot, etc.. Once they are disturbed again they move back to her house.
She is having an influx of them right now. The only good thing is they
do get rid of the fire ants but these are more invasive than fire ants.
They do not sting and that is the another good thing about them.
I sent her a link on diatomaceous earth,
http://www.dirtworks.net/Diatomaceous-Earth.html and recommended that
she send it to her friend. It may at least help keep them out of her
house. I've been using it for years. Kills pests mechanically, not
chemically, so they don't become immune to it. Good for getting rid of a
lot of other pests, too.
Louise
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:38:44 -0600
> Subject: [Texascavers] crazy ants
>
> We'll see. I can't help being suspicious of a press release that
> quotes a professional exterminator, a "market development" person for
> a company that makes a pesticide licensed for use against them, and a
> professor who studies them, presumably with grant money. Notice that
> is says that no bait has been developed specifically for them, not
> that no existing bait works. My personal little bit of conspiracy
> theory.... -- Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: [email protected]
> AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
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