texascavers Digest 16 Dec 2009 17:44:38 -0000 Issue 923

Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:44:44 -0800 (PST) 

texascavers Digest 16 Dec 2009 17:44:38 -0000 Issue 923

Topics (messages 13034 through 13049):

Re: Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
        13034 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
        13035 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
        13038 by: Gill Edigar
        13039 by: Mark Minton
        13045 by: Gill Edigar
        13049 by: Stefan Creaser

Re: Subscribers to digital publications
        13036 by: Nico Escamilla
        13037 by: Mark Minton

Facebook
        13040 by: Mark Minton
        13041 by: Charles Goldsmith
        13042 by: Stefan Creaser
        13043 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
        13047 by: Louise Power

Re: Mexican car permits
        13044 by: Terri Sprouse
        13046 by: Jim Kennedy
        13048 by: Diana Tomchick

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
One can't chew the on pages of an on-line publication, can one?
 
"Mmm! A melange of menudo and marshmallow."
 
T


Dec 16, 2009 09:20:08 AM, [email protected] wrote:
Why would one (want to) download and print an online publication (the "members manual")? Surely the whole point of it being online is so you don’t have a printed copy?!!

What's y'alls obsession with paper around here? ;-)

Cheers,
Stefan

-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Goke [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 2:14 AM
To: Butch Fralia; 'Rod Goke'; 'Charles Goldsmith'
Cc: 'TexasCavers'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?

Thanks, Butch, for the detailed and informative explanation. It's reassuring to know that someone has given that much attention to security issues in the current implementation. From a security standpoint, it is particularity reassuring to know you are satisfied that the spiders can't get into the member area and that users can't download the complete list to their local machines, where it potentially could be attacked by local malware. I was primarily concern about the potential vulnerability of TSA data to the various types of malware that are so common now, and it appears that you have that under control. I'm less concerned about anyone putting much effort into a specialized attack aimed specifically at TSA, because we aren't that tempting a target.

The fact that members can't download the complete list is good for security, but it might become a limitation that members will want to overcome if TSA decides to switch entirely to electronic publication and wants to publish a "members manual" that members can download and print. Do you think there is some sufficiently secure way to download and print a document without it being vulnerable to data harvesting by malware on an infected local machine? There probably is no immediate need for this, but I'd be interested in your thoughts, since it might become a future issue.

Separating the email address list used for online registration from that published in a "members manual" (as described in my previous message) is still something I think would be worthwhile, especially if TSA decides to publish a downloadable and printable "members manual."

Rod

-----Original Message-----
>From: Butch Fralia
>Sent: Dec 16, 2009 12:19 AM
>To: 'Rod Goke' , 'Charles Goldsmith'
>Cc: 'TexasCavers'
>Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>
>While it's possible that a malware program could harvest e-mail addresses for TSA members it's not very likely. It would have to be a specially written program that new how the display page is structured. It would also have to be installed on the computer of a person with member access. Else it would have to be a pretty good hacker to hack the web server itself for access.
>
>There are programs that search the web looking for unprotected e-mail addresses. Those e-mail addresses are sold to advertisers and spammers. These are called spiders. We have spiders search the TSA website almost daily looking for e-mail addresses. You can see it in the statistical analysis programs available with the website. They cannot get into the member area.
>
>There isn't a function set up to download all the online registered members. I have software that could do that but requires root access to the website that I'm the only one who has (there's a backup person with the root access information but not the software. The webhosting employees could dump the information and they should do so often to back up the website. I have to identify the IP address of my computer in the website control software to allow access to the membership list.
>
>The members list as seen in the member area is in an online database. That database has its own password. The queries that access the data run on the server and aren't seen off the server except by a TSA webmaster. The list uses dynamic code to produce the member list you see. All that code executes on the server and can't be seen by the outside world by right clicking in the browser window and selecting view source.
>
>Viewing the page requires a member be logged in to the website. It would be theoretically possible to intercept the information exchanged by your computer and the web-server but you'd have to be intercepted from somewhere on the internet backbone, at your ISP, or the web-server. I don't think there's that much interest in doing that with TSA data. There are 100 verified registered users and 95 of those are showing on the member list. There's an option you can select when you register or you can update to display your information on the user list. There are apparently five people who have clicked No - don't display me. If you don't want your information see outside the database, select no for the question display me on the member list.
>
>The e-mail addresses that are displayed are spoofed with a spoofing technique that allows them to be read and displayed correctly by your browser and e-mail program. To the knowledge of people who study such things, no one has changed the spider software to include checking for this spoofing. It must work because my e-mail address is publicly viewable on a number of websites but I get a pretty low level of SPAM. For that matter, there are so many unprotected/unspoofed e-mail addresses to swamp most databases so why bother?
>
>I don't know if this puts anyone's mind at ease but it's the way it works.
>
>Happy Holidays,
>
>Butch Fralia
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rod Goke [mailto:[email protected]]
>Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:49 PM
>To: Charles Goldsmith; Rod Goke
>Cc: TexasCavers
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>
>Charles,
>
>I agree with your technical comments about the many ways that malware can be used to harvest email addresses and other data and that there is no way to protect an email address 100% while using it for its normal purpose. That doesn't imply, however, that there is no point in trying reduce risk. Listening to a computer professional say "Your email addresses aren't safe anywhere, so why bother trying to protect them?" is like listening to restaurant cook say "You're not safe from germs anywhere, so why bother washing hands or dishes?"
>
>Like many email users, I've been using 2 email addresses for a number of years. I've used both of them frequently, but one I've tried to keep away from potential spam risks wherever practical and the other I've given out more freely. Of the two, the more protected one remained spam free much longer (about the first 2 years), and even after it began receiving spam, the quantity of spam received on the more protected address has remained conspicuously less than that received on the less protected address. This difference has remained noticeable even though I have used the more protected address frequently on Texascavers and for communication with numerous individuals.
>
>Someone with a much more carefully guarded email address still should be able to use it very safely in limited ways on caving related Internet services, as long as the people running those services practice reasonable privacy policies. For example, someone can subscribe to Texascavers without exposing his email address to everyone on the list as long as he only uses the subscription to receive messages from Texascavers, without ever posting to it (assuming, of course, that you don't change your policy and start allowing users to download the Texascavers address list).
>
>Similarly, TSA could serve its online users much more safely if it simply separated the email address list used for online registration from that published in a "members manual". With this convention, a member could be assured that the email address he uses for online registration will be used only for that purpose and for "official" email sent to him by TSA and that this address would NOT automatically appear on any list made available to the general membership. For his listing in a "members manual" style list, each member could specify separately what, if any, email address he wants published. This would allow each user to choose whether to publish the same email address, a different (less protected) address, or none at all.
>
>Rod
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Charles Goldsmith
>>Sent: Dec 15, 2009 4:09 PM
>>To: Rod Goke
>>Cc: TexasCavers
>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>
>>Rod, that wasn't a personal attack, if you took it as such, you need
>>to re-read my message and think about how it was meant.
>>
>>The TSA having this list is no different than the NSS keeping a list
>>of its members, and sending that list out in book format, plain and
>>simple.
>>
>>Harvesting emails from a mailing list is very very simple, I have the
>>complete list as owner of the list, but even another list, I can
>>harvest with a simple script that would only take me a few minutes to
>>write.
>>
>>It was a tongue in cheek comment about writing down email addresses by
>>hand. Scammers/Spammers/Phishers don't do anything manually.
>>
>>Modern email applications cache email addresses that it sees, Malware
>>can and does use these lists to send out spam. We've seen it recently
>>on the mailing list.
>>
>>Your email address is not safe anywhere, you will just have to learn
>>to face that fact in this modern age.
>>
>>Charles
>>
>>On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Rod Goke wrote:
>>> Charles,
>>>
>>> Your message below really misses the the point, and your personal attacks are totally unwarranted. Of course, we all run some risk that our email addresses will somehow get to spammers whenever we send them to anyone. Whenever you or I or anyone else posts a message to Texascavers we understand that our email addresses will be visible to others on the list, and we choose to do that. Harvesting email addresses one at a time from postings to this list as you suggested would be possible, of course, but it would be a slow and inconvenient way to collect a large list for spam, and I don't think either of us is seriously worried about that.
>>>
>>> The primary hazard is not that anyone in TSA or other caving organizations will deliberately pass information to spammers, but rather that some people downloading information with good intentions will inadvertently store it where spyware or other malware on an infected computer can search the downloaded files for email addresses, phone numbers, or other information that writers of the malware wish to harvest. This is something that easily can happen, and when it does, the person making information available to the malware might be totally unaware of what is going on. When people download individual email messages or other data items containing only a few email addresses or other sensitive items, then only those few items are vulnerable to harvesting by malware in any one incident. When people download an entire mailing list, however, then just one incident on one inadvertently infected computer can result in harvesting of the entire list. When many people download the list to many different computers, the risk to everyone on the list increases accordingly.
>>>
>>> So far as I know, the subscribers to Texascavers are not allowed to download that entire email address list, and I trust that Texascavers will continue to be managed in this responsible manner, especially since I haven't noticed any demand to do otherwise. The discussions I've heard and read about the TSA's online data resources, however, create much more uncertainty about how they will be managed. This is why it is important to have serious discussions of the issues beforehand to prevent problems, especially when some of them could be prevented so easily with a few minor policy decisions.
>>>
>>> Rod
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Charles Goldsmith
>>>>Sent: Dec 15, 2009 10:48 AM
>>>>To: Rod Goke
>>>>Cc: Bill Bentley , John Brooks , Mark Alman , TexasCavers
>>>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>>
>>>>Rod, your paranoia is unwarranted here, only by the fact that over 360
>>>>people have your email address and each others. Anyone of them could
>>>>harvest most of the emails after a bit of time by keeping track of who
>>>>posted an email to this list.
>>>>
>>>>Do you completely trust every one of these 360 people? The odds that
>>>>one of them would sell out is far greater than one of the "TSA"
>>>>people, who are duly elected by some of these people.
>>>>
>>>>If the TC goes free, it won't be in the password protected section, it
>>>>will be available on the front page.
>>>>
>>>>Blaming the TSA for something that has never happened is just bad
>>>>press, and you should know better, as a member of the TSA.
>>>>
>>>>Charles
>>>>
>>>>On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Rod Goke wrote:
>>>>> For the record, I like TSA, too, which is why I've maintained my TSA membership ever since moving to Texas about 25 years ago. I, too, think that Mark has been doing a great job as editor, and I much appreciate the dedicated work that he and other TSA volunteers have been doing. Nor do I blame TSA for the small amount of spam that occasionally slips through the filters into my email account. (How could I blame TSA for that when they don't even have my email address? ;-) )
>>>>>
>>>>> I still am not confident, however, that TSA can be trusted to handle our email addresses responsibly. Look at Jerry's observation that TSA already has placed an online listing of its electronically registered members on its password protected website. Then look at Gill's recent proposal to make online access to the Texas Caver free for nonmembers. Neither of these things necessarily involves an irresponsible release of TSA members' email addresses when considered separately (although I still would rather not have my email address on even a members-only password protected online list). When both of these things are considered together, however, along with all the other turmoil about TSA digital publication policies, it is easy to imagine how people might provide their email addresses to TSA assuming one seemingly responsible privacy policy, only to discover later that TSA has changed its mind and has made the email address list more widely accessible than people had expected when they provided their addresses.
>>>>>
>>>>> I chose to "throw this stone into the hornets nest," because I wanted people to actually start thinking about the issue, instead of just telling us "don't worry, be happy." The problem would be easy to fix if TSA simply would make a commitment to its members that no member's email address will be included in any online list unless that member explicitly "opts in" for inclusion in the list. TSA members need to be able to register for website access without having their email addresses published in an online list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rod
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: Bill Bentley
>>>>>>Sent: Dec 14, 2009 11:17 AM
>>>>>>To: John Brooks
>>>>>>Cc: TexasCavers
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was just
>>>>>>stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails.
>>>>>>Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from volunteers who
>>>>>>are very much appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bill
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "John Brooks"
>>>>>>To: "Bill Bentley"
>>>>>>Cc: "Rod Goke" ; "TexasCavers"
>>>>>>; "Rod Goke"
>>>>>>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The TSA has my e mail.....and I get....oh maybe one or two junk mail
>>>>>>> messages per WEEK.
>>>>>>> Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the TSA
>>>>>>> for something they are not doing or really at fault for......hardly seems
>>>>>>> fair or reasonable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley" wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rod,
>>>>>>> My [email protected] email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3
>>>>>>> seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam
>>>>>>> folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me figure
>>>>>>> what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of
>>>>>>> spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the
>>>>>>> drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that
>>>>>>> a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can
>>>>>>> currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of
>>>>>>> the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in
>>>>>>> the header I find that it comes from Korea or China...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Goke"
>>>>>>> To: "TexasCavers"
>>>>>>> Cc: "Rod Goke"
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver
>>>>>>> reminds me of a related issue:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership
>>>>>>> renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this
>>>>>>> same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with
>>>>>>> mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in
>>>>>>> their "UT Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my email
>>>>>>> address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The
>>>>>>> answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper form,
>>>>>>> where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be
>>>>>>> harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years,
>>>>>>> I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital
>>>>>>> publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of
>>>>>>> what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard
>>>>>>> from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information
>>>>>>> electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap
>>>>>>> and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it
>>>>>>> also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated
>>>>>>> harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our
>>>>>>> email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a
>>>>>>> digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to
>>>>>>> undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards
>>>>>>> digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital
>>>>>>> publication of email addresses
>>>>>>> and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rod
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Stefan,
 
I think I can end this discussion rather quickly.
 
The TSA "Members Manual" has not, is not, and never has been available on the 
TSA website.
  
As it now stands, there are no plans or need to post it.
 
In the past we have printed it off and made it available to TSA members, but, 
for the last few years, there has been little interest in members wanting a 
copy or the TSA incurring the expense in printing something very few folks want.
 
I have a whole stack of them at home, from prior years, as we speak.
 
In this Age of the Internet, tracking someone down can be done exponentially 
faster via email, TexasCavers, or Facebook.
 
Denise and Darla are the only keepers of the database and it is only made 
available to me, when I do mailings (only the registered hard copy members), 
and to Allan, when he sends out announcements for TCR.
 
 
And it is guarded by them with pit bulls and a large arsenal in order to stave 
off any attacks and incursions by spammers.
 
 
Thanks,
 
Mark
 
 

________________________________

From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wed 12/16/2009 9:19 AM
To: Rod Goke; Butch Fralia; Charles Goldsmith
Cc: TexasCavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?



Why would one (want to) download and print an online publication (the "members 
manual")? Surely the whole point of it being online is so you don't have a 
printed copy?!!

What's y'alls obsession with paper around here? ;-)

Cheers,
Stefan

-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Goke [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 2:14 AM
To: Butch Fralia; 'Rod Goke'; 'Charles Goldsmith'
Cc: 'TexasCavers'
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?

Thanks, Butch, for the detailed and informative explanation. It's reassuring to 
know that someone has given that much attention to security issues in the 
current implementation. From a security standpoint, it is particularity 
reassuring to know you are satisfied that the spiders can't get into the member 
area and that users can't download the complete list to their local machines, 
where it potentially could be attacked by local malware. I was primarily 
concern about the potential vulnerability of TSA data to the various types of 
malware that are so common now, and it appears that you have that under 
control. I'm less concerned about anyone putting much effort into a specialized 
attack aimed specifically at TSA, because we aren't that tempting a target.

The fact that members can't download the complete list is good for security, 
but it might become a limitation that members will want to overcome if TSA 
decides to switch entirely to electronic publication and wants to publish a 
"members manual" that members can download and print. Do you think there is 
some sufficiently secure way to download and print a document without it being 
vulnerable to data harvesting by malware on an infected local machine? There 
probably is no immediate need for this, but I'd be interested in your thoughts, 
since it might become a future issue.

Separating the email address list used for online registration from that 
published in a "members manual" (as described in my previous message) is still 
something I think would be worthwhile, especially if TSA decides to publish a 
downloadable and printable "members manual."

Rod

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Stefan Creaser <[email protected]>wrote:

> Why would one (want to) download and print an online publication (the
> "members manual")? Surely the whole point of it being online is so you don’t
> have a printed copy?!!
>
>
Oh, no, Stefan, that's exactly wrong. Reading something on-line is a pain in
the ass. The purpose of it being on line is exactly so that I CAN print it
out--like NOW--and then curl up with a G&T and my feet in the air and read
it in abject comfort. No sitting upright at a stupid monitor I have to keep
scrolling down and up and down and up and centering pictures and maps so
they can be seen. And to have a hard copy for archival purposes so that I
can retrieve it rapidly from the stack and not have to search around for the
disk with the file on it, if I even remembered to back it up in the first
place. The download just replaces the mailman--and rather supplants him, in
fact. A hard copy is what we're after, but how we get it and how much it
costs is the point to be considered. In reality, if you print your copy in
color (ink jet), both sides you're probably spending $2 to $4 for ink per
issue. That's about what an issue costs to print in bulk on a duplicator, +
or -; more for offset. (How much, Mark?) So, the production cost is about
the same but not borne by the TSA and they save a dollar or so on mailing
costs--and a good bit of hassle mailing it. If you print it out in 11x17 you
get a saddle stitched issue that you practically can't tell from the mailed
version. Pretty neat, huh? Kinkos'll do it for ya, including folding and
stapling, if you don't have a printer in that format.

--Ediger

--Ediger

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
        Stefan said:
>Why would one (want to) download and print an online publication (the "members manual")? Surely the whole point of it being online is so you don't have a printed copy?!!
I like to have printed members manuals with me when I travel. They are very handy for calling up a friend if you happen to be passing through or are looking for a place to stay, break down and need help, etc. Access to online information is not always available. 

Mark Minton

You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
You are right, Minton. I forgot to mention that. Carrying a Members Manual
in the car can be invaluable on long road trips or just making a visit to
somebody's house. It can, of course, be loaded into a phone or palm pilot or
similar device. But I like paper, especially if I have to take notes--as in
directions to somewhere.
--Ediger

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Mark Minton <[email protected]> wrote:

>        Stefan said:
>
> >Why would one (want to) download and print an online publication (the
> "members manual")? Surely the whole point of it being online is so you don't
> have a printed copy?!!
>
>        I like to have printed members manuals with me when I travel.  They
> are very handy for calling up a friend if you happen to be passing through
> or are looking for a place to stay, break down and need help, etc.  Access
> to online information is not always available.
>
> Mark Minton
>
> You may reply to [email protected]
> Permanent email address is [email protected]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
You need to write down directions?! That's what a GPS is for...

 

I agree that an electronic publication can/should be downloaded to the
electronic devices we all carry now-a-days .

 

Stefan

 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Gill Edigar
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?

 

You are right, Minton. I forgot to mention that. Carrying a Members
Manual in the car can be invaluable on long road trips or just making a
visit to somebody's house. It can, of course, be loaded into a phone or
palm pilot or similar device. But I like paper, especially if I have to
take notes--as in directions to somewhere. 

--Ediger

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Mark Minton <[email protected]> wrote:



       Stefan said:

>Why would one (want to) download and print an online publication (the
"members manual")? Surely the whole point of it being online is so you
don't have a printed copy?!!

       I like to have printed members manuals with me when I travel.
They are very handy for calling up a friend if you happen to be passing
through or are looking for a place to stay, break down and need help,
etc.  Access to online information is not always available.

Mark Minton

You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected] 


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-- 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, 
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any 
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any 
medium.  Thank you.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Wont somebody think of the trees that have to chopped to make paper?

Geez, this is getting to the point that I once again feel like unsubscribing
from the list,
in fact I will.. Charles, could you notify me when all this is over with?
hope y'all are done sorting the issue by the time I come back from caving in
January

Feliz Navidad, Hanuka, Kwanzaa or whatever you believe in, Happy New year as
well to everyone,
this beaner is out.

Nico

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
        Mark Alman said:
>Ellie and I were talking the other night while discussing the Spring Convention. She suggested making all of the TEXAS CAVER newsletters over a year old open to anyone (her idea), after they complete a Subscription form (your idea and one in which I concur).
This is an excellent suggestion, some variant of which is followed by many commercial magazines and newspapers with their digital editions. The older editions will show the type of content that is available, and will hopefully push people to subscribe. If they are really interested in Texas caving, presumably they will want to get the more up-to-date information about various gatherings and events in current issues, as Mark said. I like it! 

Mark Minton

You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- With all of the recent discussion of online privacy, I thought I would pass this along to interested parties. I am not on Facebook, but I know many of you are. This notice was posted on another list recently (Dec. 14):
If you don't know, as of today, Facebook will automatically index all your info on Google, which allows everyone to view it. To change this option, go to Settings --> Privacy Settings --> Search --> then UN-CLICK the box that says 'Allow indexing'. Facebook kept this one quiet. Copy and paste onto your status for all your friends ASAP 

Mark Minton

You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Mark, this information is only partially true, and to quote from
Facebook's privacy page, "Worried about search engines? Your
information is safe.  There have been misleading rumors recently about
Facebook indexing all your information on Google. This is not true.
Facebook created public search listings in 2007 to enable people to
search for your name and see a link to your Facebook profile. They
will still only see a basic set of information."

Thanks for the heads up
Charles

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Mark Minton <[email protected]> wrote:
>        With all of the recent discussion of online privacy, I thought I
> would pass this along to interested parties.  I am not on Facebook, but I
> know many of you are.  This notice was posted on another list recently (Dec.
> 14):
>
> If you don't know, as of today, Facebook will automatically index all your
> info on Google, which allows everyone to view it. To change this option, go
> to Settings --> Privacy Settings --> Search --> then UN-CLICK the box that
> says 'Allow indexing'. Facebook kept this one quiet. Copy and paste onto
> your status for all your friends ASAP
>
> Mark Minton
>
> You may reply to [email protected]
> Permanent email address is [email protected]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I think this warning is also pertinent:

If you don't know, as of today, Facebook will automatically start
plunging the Earth into the Sun. To change this option, go to Settings
--> Planetary Settings --> Trajectory then UN-CLICK the box that says
'Apocalypse.' Facebook kept this one quiet. Copy and paste onto your
status for all to see.


With thanks to Kara Savvas ;-)

Stefan

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Minton [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Facebook

         With all of the recent discussion of online privacy, I 
thought I would pass this along to interested parties.  I am not on 
Facebook, but I know many of you are.  This notice was posted on 
another list recently (Dec. 14):

If you don't know, as of today, Facebook will automatically index all 
your info on Google, which allows everyone to view it. To change this 
option, go to Settings --> Privacy Settings --> Search --> then 
UN-CLICK the box that says 'Allow indexing'. Facebook kept this one 
quiet. Copy and paste onto your status for all your friends ASAP

Mark Minton

You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected] 


---------------------------------------------------------------------
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-- 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
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please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any 
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Giggle!


Mark



-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:25 AM
To: Mark Minton; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Facebook

I think this warning is also pertinent:

If you don't know, as of today, Facebook will automatically start
plunging the Earth into the Sun. To change this option, go to Settings
--> Planetary Settings --> Trajectory then UN-CLICK the box that says
'Apocalypse.' Facebook kept this one quiet. Copy and paste onto your
status for all to see.


With thanks to Kara Savvas ;-)

Stefan

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Good reason to check Snopes before sending things like this out. To read more, 
check out the following link that was put up this morning:

 

http://www.snopes.com/computer/internet/indexing.asp

 

Louise
 
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:21:26 -0500
> To: [email protected]
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: [Texascavers] Facebook
> 
> With all of the recent discussion of online privacy, I 
> thought I would pass this along to interested parties. I am not on 
> Facebook, but I know many of you are. This notice was posted on 
> another list recently (Dec. 14):
> 
> If you don't know, as of today, Facebook will automatically index all 
> your info on Google, which allows everyone to view it. To change this 
> option, go to Settings --> Privacy Settings --> Search --> then 
> UN-CLICK the box that says 'Allow indexing'. Facebook kept this one 
> quiet. Copy and paste onto your status for all your friends ASAP
> 
> Mark Minton
> 
> You may reply to [email protected]
> Permanent email address is [email protected] 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
This, from Peter:

"Turning in permits at consulates has never been possible, despite lingering 
myths."

Terri


--- On Wed, 12/16/09, Diana Tomchick <[email protected]> wrote:

> From: Diana Tomchick <[email protected]>
> Subject: [Texascavers] Mexican car permits
> To: "Cave Tex" <[email protected]>
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 9:18 AM
> Sorry to interrupt the pressing
> threads on email spam and other inevitabilities of modern
> life, but I have a question that directly impacts an
> impending caving trip. I tried to return an expired car
> permit at the Mexican consulate in Dallas this morning, but
> had absolutely no luck (I don't know why I bother trying
> this in Dallas, this consulate has a reputation for
> corruption that rivals the Mexican government). Has anyone
> recently returned a car permit at the consulate in Austin? I
> am tempted to make the drive down to Austin tomorrow or
> Friday morning if I thought it would save me from repeating
> 8+ hours at the border that I suffered last year.
> 
> Diana
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Associate Professor
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> Department of Biochemistry
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214B    
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.    
> Email: [email protected]
> 214-645-6383 (phone)
> 214-645-6353 (fax)
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
> 
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
That is not entirely true, because I have done it myself, after I had a
truck sold without first having the sticker cancelled.  The people were
even nice enough to issue me a new sticker for my new vehicle on the
spot.  This was at the consulate in Austin.  Although I have heard
recently that they Banjercito guy is no longer stationed there, so you
can't do it any more.

-- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Terri Sprouse [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM
To: Cave Tex; Diana Tomchick
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Mexican car permits

This, from Peter:

"Turning in permits at consulates has never been possible, despite
lingering myths."

Terri

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I also have been able to return a sticker at the Dallas consulate, but it was over 5 years ago. 

Diana

On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:35 AM, Jim Kennedy wrote:
That is not entirely true, because I have done it myself, after I had a truck sold without first having the sticker cancelled. The people were 
even nice enough to issue me a new sticker for my new vehicle on the
spot.  This was at the consulate in Austin.  Although I have heard
recently that they Banjercito guy is no longer stationed there, so you
can't do it any more.

-- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Terri Sprouse [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM
To: Cave Tex; Diana Tomchick
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Mexican car permits

This, from Peter:

"Turning in permits at consulates has never been possible, despite
lingering myths."

Terri



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B   
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.   
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)

--- End Message ---

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