texascavers Digest 17 Dec 2009 18:54:44 -0000 Issue 925

Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:54:51 -0800 (PST) 

texascavers Digest 17 Dec 2009 18:54:44 -0000 Issue 925

Topics (messages 13059 through 13077):

Re: Facebook
        13059 by: Sheryl Rieck
        13069 by: Rod Goke
        13072 by: Rod Goke

TSA project curious question
        13060 by: Lyndon Tiu
        13061 by: Gill Edigar
        13062 by: Mark Alman
        13064 by: Linda Palit

Re: Over reliance on GPS is causing our brains to shrink
        13063 by: Mark Minton

Re: PSN vs GPS
        13065 by: Logan McNatt
        13068 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com

KY Cave Death
        13066 by: Preston Forsythe

Re: Mexican car permits
        13067 by: David Ochel

Re: New Thread - Over reliance on GPS is causing our brains to shrink
        13070 by: Rod Goke

Caving with Wooden Hand Paddles
        13071 by: Preston Forsythe

recent caver fatalities
        13073 by: David
        13074 by: Gill Edigar
        13075 by: Geary Schindel
        13077 by: Louise Power

James River Bat Cave
        13076 by: Gill Edigar

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message --- 
       I confess.  I laughed right out loud!
       
       Sheryl
       
       -----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:25 AM
To: Mark Minton; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Facebook
       
       I think this warning is also pertinent:
       
       If you don't know, as of today, Facebook will automatically start
       plunging the Earth into the Sun. To change this option, go to
Settings
       --> Planetary Settings --> Trajectory then UN-CLICK the box that says
       'Apocalypse.' Facebook kept this one quiet. Copy and paste onto your
       status for all to see.
       
       
       With thanks to Kara Savvas ;-)
       
       Stefan

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Is that one on Snopes, too?

-----Original Message-----
>From: Sheryl Rieck <[email protected]>
>Sent: Dec 16, 2009 6:30 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Facebook
>
>       I confess.  I laughed right out loud!
>       
>       Sheryl
>       
>       -----Original Message-----
>From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:[email protected]] 
>Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:25 AM
>To: Mark Minton; [email protected]
>Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Facebook
>       
>       I think this warning is also pertinent:
>       
>       If you don't know, as of today, Facebook will automatically start
>       plunging the Earth into the Sun. To change this option, go to
>Settings
>       --> Planetary Settings --> Trajectory then UN-CLICK the box that says
>       'Apocalypse.' Facebook kept this one quiet. Copy and paste onto your
>       status for all to see.
>       
>       
>       With thanks to Kara Savvas ;-)
>       
>       Stefan
>       
>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Those of you interested in Facebook privacy issues might be interested in what 
Clark Howard said about it on his website, including a link to an article on 
this subject in The Financial Times of London. See:

http://clarkhoward.com/liveweb/shownotes/2009/12/15/17325/

Rod

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I seem to remember that every time one attends a TSA work trip (e.g. CBSP), one has to pay ... was it $5 or $10 per person per work trip/weekend ? 

Is this still being collected?

--
Lyndon Tiu

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
$1

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Lyndon Tiu <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> I seem to remember that every time one attends a TSA work trip (e.g. CBSP),
> one has to pay ... was it $5 or $10 per person per work trip/weekend ?
>
> Is this still being collected?
>
> --
> Lyndon Tiu
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
For you, Lyndon, it's $20!   8^)>


Mark




________________________________
From: Gill Edigar <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 6:48:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA project curious question

$1


On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Lyndon Tiu <[email protected]> wrote:


>I seem to remember that every time one attends a TSA work trip (e.g. CBSP), 
>one has to pay ... was it $5 or $10 per person per work trip/weekend ?
>
>Is this still being collected?
>
>-- 
>Lyndon Tiu
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
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>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
That was for the land fund, but it was not collected consistently and the
land fund was growing very slowly.

The potential of actually buying property was pretty distant, so the fund
went to help  pay off the mortgage for Deep and Punkin caves.

However if an appropriate piece of property at an affordable price was
found, Texas Cavers and organizations might still consider buying it as a
permanent TCR location, especially if there were caves and water.

 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gill
Edigar
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 6:49 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA project curious question

 

$1

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Lyndon Tiu <[email protected]> wrote:


I seem to remember that every time one attends a TSA work trip (e.g. CBSP),
one has to pay ... was it $5 or $10 per person per work trip/weekend ?

Is this still being collected?

-- 
Lyndon Tiu

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
>http://www.allbusiness.com/science-technology/behavior-cognition-psychology/13544176-1.html
Interesting article. I like how he mentioned looking back at landmarks to see what they look like from different perspectives. That's particularly important in caves, since passages and junctions often look very different on the way out compared to the way in. That's something we always point out to new cavers.
I personally never use GPS when I am hiking. I have a very good mental map of everywhere I walk, and can easily devise cross-country routes to get from one extreme point to another, even though I have never seen the intervening territory. I only use a GPS to record a specific location like a cave entrance for entry into a data base so others can record it and find it. If I end up backtracking for whatever reason, I am amazed at how often I go back over exactly the same terrain, passing specific rocks, trees, etc. without even trying I have noticed that this ability is far from universal, however. Several times I have been hiking with people and suggested cutting overland to get back at the end of the day, and had them be totally bewildered and genuinely concerned that we would get lost, even though it seemed totally obvious to me that going north, say, would get us back to where we needed to be. I'd hate to see this sort of seat-of-the-pants navigation be supplanted by technology like GPS, which will not work in some environments and not underground in any event.
Possibly the best example of this sort of navigation I know of was mentioned recently by Nancy Weaver. The Mexican guy who led us to a big pit-like karst feature (the previously known Caldera) in the El Abra in 1986 told us after the fact that he had been there only once previously 10 years earlier. That was a multi-hour hike over seemingly featureless terrain. Even I don't see how he did it. 

Mark Minton

At 03:05 PM 12/16/2009, [email protected] wrote:
Interesting article that was in the hard copy of the Dallas Morning News this past Sunday.
Explains in great detail as to how over-reliance on GPS devices can/will cause of the loss of spatial thought, which is controlled by the hippocampus in our brains. 

http://www.allbusiness.com/science-technology/behavior-cognition-psychology/13544176-1.html

Mark (still gets lost the old fashioned way)


You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,

Your "Pants Seat Navigation" (PSN) approach is my preferred method, too.  Reminds me of a story I heard a few years ago about some well-known caver (Steve Knutson or Marion Smith, I think) who would take off cross-country/through the jungle/up the mountain yelling "Don't follow me, I'm a Buffoon!"  Everyone else would follow the trail, map, whatever, and sure enough, when they finally got to the cave, the guy would be waiting for them, maybe even taking a nap.  Maybe someone on the list told me the story; my first guess would be Bill Steele (?).

Logan

Mark Minton wrote:
>http://www.allbusiness.com/science-technology/behavior-cognition-psychology/13544176-1.html

        Interesting article.  I like how he mentioned looking back at landmarks to see what they look like from different perspectives.  That's particularly important in caves, since passages and junctions often look very different on the way out compared to the way in.  That's something we always point out to new cavers.

        I personally never use GPS when I am hiking.  I have a very good mental map of everywhere I walk, and can easily devise cross-country routes to get from one extreme point to another, even though I have never seen the intervening territory.  I only use a GPS to record a specific location like a cave entrance for entry into a data base so others can record it and find it.  If I end up backtracking for whatever reason, I am amazed at how often I go back over exactly the same terrain, passing specific rocks, trees, etc. without even trying  I have noticed that this ability is far from universal, however.  Several times I have been hiking with people and suggested cutting overland to get back at the end of the day, and had them be totally bewildered and genuinely concerned that we would get lost, even though it seemed totally obvious to me that going north, say, would get us back to where we needed to be.  I'd hate to see this sort of seat-of-the-pants navigation be supplanted by technology like GPS, which will not work in some environments and not underground in any event.

        Possibly the best example of this sort of navigation I know of was mentioned recently by Nancy Weaver.  The Mexican guy who led us to a big pit-like karst feature (the previously known Caldera) in the El Abra in 1986 told us after the fact that he had been there only once previously 10 years earlier.  That was a multi-hour hike over seemingly featureless terrain.  Even I don't see how he did it.

Mark Minton

At 03:05 PM 12/16/2009, [email protected] wrote:
Interesting article that was in the hard copy of the Dallas Morning News this past Sunday.

Explains in great detail as to how over-reliance on GPS devices can/will cause of the loss of spatial thought, which is controlled by the hippocampus in our brains.

http://www.allbusiness.com/science-technology/behavior-cognition-psychology/13544176-1.html

Mark (still gets lost the old fashioned way)

You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Reminds me of the old times when we set out to find some black hole in the  
El Abra based on aerial photos.  If we were lucky, there was a topo  map of 
the area but that wasn't a lot of help once you were on top of the  range.  
You plotted out the best course based on the available maps  and aerials, 
and set out chopping through the jungle on a compass bearing,  often for 
kilometers, hoping to find a hole that was often a fairly small  target.  
Sometimes you found a great cave, sometimes you just enjoyed the  jungle 
experience.  I must admit having GPS would have been nice.
 
Jerry.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Today a young man died in Sloan Valley Cave in eastern KY. Slipped and fell down a 30 ft. pit. Some eastern KY NSS members helped in the body recovery. 

Our condolences to the family and friends of the young man.

http://www.kentucky.com/513/story/1062953.html?mi_pluck_action=comment_submitted&qwxq=4548842#Comments_Container
Preston in western KY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi Diana,

As far as the Austin consulate goes: My understanding (from talking to
the lady who is issuing the car permits there) is that the guy in charge
of canceling permits just comes through on random visits (typically
sometime before holidays), and it isn't exactly predictable when he'll
come to visit from D.F. for canceling car permits in Austin. It
basically boils down to pure luck.

However, the Austin consulate will issue you a new car permit even if
you haven't returned the old one, if it's for the same car. You then
only have to cancel the old one at the border, which usually doesn't
take as much time as getting a new one there.

Cheers,
David

Diana Tomchick wrote:
> I also have been able to return a sticker at the Dallas consulate, but
> it was over 5 years ago.
> 
> Diana
> 
> On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:35 AM, Jim Kennedy wrote:
> 
>> That is not entirely true, because I have done it myself, after I had a
>> truck sold without first having the sticker cancelled.  The people were
>> even nice enough to issue me a new sticker for my new vehicle on the
>> spot.  This was at the consulate in Austin.  Although I have heard
>> recently that they Banjercito guy is no longer stationed there, so you
>> can't do it any more.
>>
>> -- Jim
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Terri Sprouse [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:29 AM
>> To: Cave Tex; Diana Tomchick
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Mexican car permits
>>
>> This, from Peter:
>>
>> "Turning in permits at consulates has never been possible, despite
>> lingering myths."
>>
>> Terri
>>
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Associate Professor
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> Department of Biochemistry
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214B   
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.   
> Email: [email protected]
> 214-645-6383 (phone)
> 214-645-6353 (fax)
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
> 

-- 
David Ochel, mailto:[email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't that why we have Google Maps, to exercise our hippocampusses?

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
Sent: Dec 16, 2009 3:05 PM
To: Gill Edigar , Stefan Creaser
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] New Thread - Over reliance on GPS is causing our brains to shrink

Interesting article that was in the hard copy of the Dallas Morning News this past Sunday.

 

Explains in great detail as to how over-reliance on GPS devices can/will cause of the loss of spatial thought, which is controlled by the hippocampus in our brains.

 

 

 

http://www.allbusiness.com/science-technology/behavior-cognition-psychology/13544176-1.html

 

 

Mark (still gets lost the old fashioned way)

 

 

 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gill Edigar
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 12:58 PM
To: Stefan Creaser
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?

 

GPS is OK if you have coordinates, etc handy. But still not nearly as handy, while talking on the phone, as a pencil and a note in the margin: SB 37, Smithson exit, 1.2 m, L Concho St, 3 blk, RT Gibson, 2 blk, 2608, bat stkr. No where near as handy. GPS is a good tool for serious work, a good toy for just messing around, but a lot of extra work for just getting to some simple place when basic directions will suffice--way overrated. 

--Ediger 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Stefan Creaser <[email protected]> wrote:

You need to write down directions?! That’s what a GPS is for…

 

 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Here is a technique you may want to try in Honey Creek.


From an internet Ad on the Yucatan--
"I tend to remember vividly things that are new to me. And neither my girlfriend, Ginny, nor I had ever done anything like what we did at Xplor on the Riviera Maya. I suppose you'd call Xplor an adventure park, with activities such as driving amphibious vehicles and ziplining. We spent most of our time underground, however, maneuvering a two-person raft through a massive otherworldly cavern. (Rafters wear wooden hand paddles - they attach to your arms - to avoid hitting or damaging the natural formations.) The stalactites and stalagmites are expertly lit - you can tell the designer really thought about it. I've walked through caves before, but paddling like that was just magical. We felt as if we were alone in the cave." 

And you thought we were stuck here in western KY,

Preston

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
It seems that the 2 recent caver fatalities could have been prevented
if the novice caver that died had had some basic information about
the cave hazards of that particular cave.

I would propose that a list of Texas cave hazards be published on
CaveTex or in the Texas Caver, or in a special publication to be only
handed out at grotto meetings.

Also, a PVC canister could be placed in a cave with a note inside warning
of the dangers in the cave, along with a list of known fatalities or accidents.

For example, where is the spot in a particular cave that a fatality would
most likely occur?

For example, I would not recommend that a novice caver do certain pits,
or visit caves with possible histo, or visit caves with bad air, or sump where
a novice caver could drown.

I think the situation in Texas is far different than in other states.
  It is hard for
a novice to get in a cave, and even less into a cave that is hazardous.   And
also, Texas caves are not as wet and cold at the same time as caves in
other parts of the country, so being lost is more of a dehydration issue than
a hypothermic issue.

The only place in a Texas cave that I have visited that I propose be off-limits
to all novice cavers, is the last pit in "Emerald Sink."  The hazard is the
air quality and the contact with bats.   The crawlway beyond the 140
foot pit leads
to the last pit.  [ The 2nd pit is in a small enclosed area and the
only time I ever did the pit was in 1994.]   At that time, there was a
bat roost in the pit, and the guano in the
pit was nasty.  So I can't think of a good reason why a novice caver should
go down the crawlway to the last pit.    There is a nasty sump a very
short ways beyond
the last pit.   I think somebody dove the sump.   Does it need to be
dove again ?   If it
doesn't need to be dove again, then a good video needs to be made of
the passage, and
I propose that the crawlway be gated.

I bet many cavers have been to a certain cave and not known there was
a fatality there ?   Like out at Punkin ?

How many new active Texas cavers can describe to a novice caver ( off the top
of their head ) all the cave fatalities that we have had in Texas?
It seems like
the number was 13 or 14?    Several were vertical related.

I bet if you could asked the novice cavers that were on the trips with
the victim, if they had ever heard of the publication American Caving
Accidents, they would have said, "no."

"Cave fatality funerals suck.   I don't want to attend one, or be the victim."

David Locklear

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Naw, David.
There's a  natural selection process in place that you shouldn't mess with.
Let those fools remove themselves from the gene pool. You take on a great
responsibility when you start putting up obstacles to their self-destruction
and allow them to procreate. I could cite several examples. We need to be
breeding people for intelligence, not stupidity. And blond hair would be a
nice goal, too, but only because they have more fun.
--Ediger

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 6:34 AM, David <[email protected]> wrote:

> It seems that the 2 recent caver fatalities could have been prevented
> if the novice caver that died had had some basic information about
> the cave hazards of that particular cave.
>
> I would propose that a list of Texas cave hazards be published on
> CaveTex or in the Texas Caver, or in a special publication to be only
> handed out at grotto meetings.
>
> Also, a PVC canister could be placed in a cave with a note inside warning
> of the dangers in the cave, along with a list of known fatalities or
> accidents.
>
> For example, where is the spot in a particular cave that a fatality would
> most likely occur?
>
> For example, I would not recommend that a novice caver do certain pits,
> or visit caves with possible histo, or visit caves with bad air, or sump
> where
> a novice caver could drown.
>
> I think the situation in Texas is far different than in other states.
>  It is hard for
> a novice to get in a cave, and even less into a cave that is hazardous.
> And
> also, Texas caves are not as wet and cold at the same time as caves in
> other parts of the country, so being lost is more of a dehydration issue
> than
> a hypothermic issue.
>
> The only place in a Texas cave that I have visited that I propose be
> off-limits
> to all novice cavers, is the last pit in "Emerald Sink."  The hazard is the
> air quality and the contact with bats.   The crawlway beyond the 140
> foot pit leads
> to the last pit.  [ The 2nd pit is in a small enclosed area and the
> only time I ever did the pit was in 1994.]   At that time, there was a
> bat roost in the pit, and the guano in the
> pit was nasty.  So I can't think of a good reason why a novice caver should
> go down the crawlway to the last pit.    There is a nasty sump a very
> short ways beyond
> the last pit.   I think somebody dove the sump.   Does it need to be
> dove again ?   If it
> doesn't need to be dove again, then a good video needs to be made of
> the passage, and
> I propose that the crawlway be gated.
>
> I bet many cavers have been to a certain cave and not known there was
> a fatality there ?   Like out at Punkin ?
>
> How many new active Texas cavers can describe to a novice caver ( off the
> top
> of their head ) all the cave fatalities that we have had in Texas?
> It seems like
> the number was 13 or 14?    Several were vertical related.
>
> I bet if you could asked the novice cavers that were on the trips with
> the victim, if they had ever heard of the publication American Caving
> Accidents, they would have said, "no."
>
> "Cave fatality funerals suck.   I don't want to attend one, or be the
> victim."
>
> David Locklear
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Gil,

Hair color I can change, but you have to have something to work with first.  
LOL.

Geary

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gill 
Edigar
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:18 AM
To: David
Cc: Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] recent caver fatalities

Naw, David.
There's a  natural selection process in place that you shouldn't mess with. Let 
those fools remove themselves from the gene pool. You take on a great 
responsibility when you start putting up obstacles to their self-destruction 
and allow them to procreate. I could cite several examples. We need to be 
breeding people for intelligence, not stupidity. And blond hair would be a nice 
goal, too, but only because they have more fun.
--Ediger
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 6:34 AM, David 
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
It seems that the 2 recent caver fatalities could have been prevented
if the novice caver that died had had some basic information about
the cave hazards of that particular cave.

I would propose that a list of Texas cave hazards be published on
CaveTex or in the Texas Caver, or in a special publication to be only
handed out at grotto meetings.

Also, a PVC canister could be placed in a cave with a note inside warning
of the dangers in the cave, along with a list of known fatalities or accidents.

For example, where is the spot in a particular cave that a fatality would
most likely occur?

For example, I would not recommend that a novice caver do certain pits,
or visit caves with possible histo, or visit caves with bad air, or sump where
a novice caver could drown.

I think the situation in Texas is far different than in other states.
 It is hard for
a novice to get in a cave, and even less into a cave that is hazardous.   And
also, Texas caves are not as wet and cold at the same time as caves in
other parts of the country, so being lost is more of a dehydration issue than
a hypothermic issue.

The only place in a Texas cave that I have visited that I propose be off-limits
to all novice cavers, is the last pit in "Emerald Sink."  The hazard is the
air quality and the contact with bats.   The crawlway beyond the 140
foot pit leads
to the last pit.  [ The 2nd pit is in a small enclosed area and the
only time I ever did the pit was in 1994.]   At that time, there was a
bat roost in the pit, and the guano in the
pit was nasty.  So I can't think of a good reason why a novice caver should
go down the crawlway to the last pit.    There is a nasty sump a very
short ways beyond
the last pit.   I think somebody dove the sump.   Does it need to be
dove again ?   If it
doesn't need to be dove again, then a good video needs to be made of
the passage, and
I propose that the crawlway be gated.

I bet many cavers have been to a certain cave and not known there was
a fatality there ?   Like out at Punkin ?

How many new active Texas cavers can describe to a novice caver ( off the top
of their head ) all the cave fatalities that we have had in Texas?
It seems like
the number was 13 or 14?    Several were vertical related.

I bet if you could asked the novice cavers that were on the trips with
the victim, if they had ever heard of the publication American Caving
Accidents, they would have said, "no."

"Cave fatality funerals suck.   I don't want to attend one, or be the victim."

David Locklear

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
And you can always nominate them for the appropriate category in The Darwin 
Awards.
 


From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
CC: [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:22:52 -0600
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] recent caver fatalities





 
Gil,
 
Hair color I can change, but you have to have something to work with first.  
LOL.
 
Geary
 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gill 
Edigar
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:18 AM
To: David
Cc: Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] recent caver fatalities
 
Naw, David. 

There's a  natural selection process in place that you shouldn't mess with. Let 
those fools remove themselves from the gene pool. You take on a great 
responsibility when you start putting up obstacles to their self-destruction 
and allow them to procreate. I could cite several examples. We need to be 
breeding people for intelligence, not stupidity. And blond hair would be a nice 
goal, too, but only because they have more fun.

--Ediger

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 6:34 AM, David <[email protected]> wrote:
It seems that the 2 recent caver fatalities could have been prevented
if the novice caver that died had had some basic information about
the cave hazards of that particular cave.

I would propose that a list of Texas cave hazards be published on
CaveTex or in the Texas Caver, or in a special publication to be only
handed out at grotto meetings.

Also, a PVC canister could be placed in a cave with a note inside warning
of the dangers in the cave, along with a list of known fatalities or accidents.

For example, where is the spot in a particular cave that a fatality would
most likely occur?

For example, I would not recommend that a novice caver do certain pits,
or visit caves with possible histo, or visit caves with bad air, or sump where
a novice caver could drown.

I think the situation in Texas is far different than in other states.
 It is hard for
a novice to get in a cave, and even less into a cave that is hazardous.   And
also, Texas caves are not as wet and cold at the same time as caves in
other parts of the country, so being lost is more of a dehydration issue than
a hypothermic issue.

The only place in a Texas cave that I have visited that I propose be off-limits
to all novice cavers, is the last pit in "Emerald Sink."  The hazard is the
air quality and the contact with bats.   The crawlway beyond the 140
foot pit leads
to the last pit.  [ The 2nd pit is in a small enclosed area and the
only time I ever did the pit was in 1994.]   At that time, there was a
bat roost in the pit, and the guano in the
pit was nasty.  So I can't think of a good reason why a novice caver should
go down the crawlway to the last pit.    There is a nasty sump a very
short ways beyond
the last pit.   I think somebody dove the sump.   Does it need to be
dove again ?   If it
doesn't need to be dove again, then a good video needs to be made of
the passage, and
I propose that the crawlway be gated.

I bet many cavers have been to a certain cave and not known there was
a fatality there ?   Like out at Punkin ?

How many new active Texas cavers can describe to a novice caver ( off the top
of their head ) all the cave fatalities that we have had in Texas?
It seems like
the number was 13 or 14?    Several were vertical related.

I bet if you could asked the novice cavers that were on the trips with
the victim, if they had ever heard of the publication American Caving
Accidents, they would have said, "no."

"Cave fatality funerals suck.   I don't want to attend one, or be the victim."

David Locklear

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A short article appeared in the MASON COUNTY HARD TIMES newspaper

   http://www.masoncountynews.com/news/article/16123

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