texascavers Digest 27 Jan 2010 07:42:25 -0000 Issue 954
Topics (messages 13403 through 13421):
Re: San Antonio slumps
13403 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
13405 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
Re: like fleas arguing over who owns the dogs back
13404 by: BMorgan994.aol.com
13420 by: SS
13421 by: Corky
Re: Mystery rocks, Chicxulub?
13406 by: Charles Goldsmith
13410 by: BMorgan994.aol.com
13412 by: Charles Goldsmith
Re: caving and insurance
13407 by: Fritz Holt
13408 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
13409 by: Fritz Holt
Brad Pitt buys house with cave.
13411 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
13415 by: Mallory Mayeux
13416 by: John P Brooks
NCRC OCR Feb. 27 & 28
13413 by: DJ Walker
Mystery rock pics
13414 by: BMorgan994.aol.com
13418 by: Louise Power
Re: Landslide in San Antonio
13417 by: Tim Stich
Punkin Cave
13419 by: Jim Kennedy
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--- Begin Message ---
The Del Rio clay slumps a lot.. that's the stuff at the top of the bluff on the S side of Town Lake in Austin..
"It wiggles, it's Jell-O"
More rains coming soon! This could turn into a real big mess.
-WaV
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Gill Edigar
<[email protected]> wrote:
It is often said and there is a widespread misconception that the "Balcones Fault" is "inactive", meaning that it no longer moves. First, the idea that it is only one fault is inaccurate; it is more correctly a "fault zone" made up of probably millions of smaller, local faults, some mere meters long, others well up on the order of dozens of kilometers. And they move; the seismograph says so. Consider that there are many pre-existing joints and faults and that would otherwise appear to be 'inactive'. These joints are filled with mud which dissolves the surfaces of these rocks. As the rocks are dissolved their center of gravity and their contacts with adjoining rocks changes or goes away, or rains wash away or introduce clay or other material. Rains and drouths will alter the mud and moisture content. Seasonal heating and cooling of the near-surface rocks will affect their stability. The rock's immediate environment changes over time and it must adjust itself accordingly. It moves. And that movement, if large enough, will register on a seismograph; it's a mini-earthquake. There are thousands of them every day along the length of the (seemingly inactive) Balcones Fault Zone.
It is entirely possible, and even likely, that the slumping going on in San Antonio is a mass of rock spalling along a joint or fault after a lower side-supporting member has been removed through natural processes or quarrying and the recent rains have washed out and/or lubricated any clay binders in the joint.
--Ediger
on Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:38 PM, SS
<[email protected]> wrote:
The neighborhood was probably built on a landfill...lol.
That's what happens when you cut corners...I hope Centex gets sued into
bankruptcy.
-----Original Message-----
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:48 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..
Folks,
This is not a sinkhole but a classic hill slope failure. Quite impressive
as slips go.
Geary
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..
"Our backyard has shifted about 10 feet, and everything is pushed closer to
our house," said Sara Koenig, 23.
She and her husband, 27, left early Sunday to study and to volunteer at a
local hospital, respectively. She said neighbors called her at 11 a.m. to
report their back fence had collapsed but her two Chihuahuas were safe.
Near helotes.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/82553087.html
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--- Begin Message ---
I looked at the area affected in Google Earth and they are really slottin' in the ranchettes to get more $$ per acre. Hijole.
It is often said and there is a widespread misconception that the "Balcones Fault" is "inactive", meaning that it no longer moves. First, the idea that it is only one fault is inaccurate; it is more correctly a "fault zone" made up of probably millions of smaller, local faults, some mere meters long, others well up on the order of dozens of kilometers. And they move; the seismograph says so. Consider that there are many pre-existing joints and faults and that would otherwise appear to be 'inactive'. These joints are filled with mud which dissolves the surfaces of these rocks. As the rocks are dissolved their center of gravity and their contacts with adjoining rocks changes or goes away, or rains wash away or introduce clay or other material. Rains and drouths will alter the mud and moisture content. Seasonal heating and cooling of the near-surface rocks will affect their stability. The rock's immediate environment changes over time and it must adjust itself accordingly. It moves. And that movement, if large enough, will register on a seismograph; it's a mini-earthquake. There are thousands of them every day along the length of the (seemingly inactive) Balcones Fault Zone.
It is entirely possible, and even likely, that the slumping going on in San Antonio is a mass of rock spalling along a joint or fault after a lower side-supporting member has been removed through natural processes or quarrying and the recent rains have washed out and/or lubricated any clay binders in the joint.
--Ediger
on Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:38 PM, SS
<[email protected]> wrote:
The neighborhood was probably built on a landfill...lol.
That's what happens when you cut corners...I hope Centex gets sued into
bankruptcy.
-----Original Message-----
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:48 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..
Folks,
This is not a sinkhole but a classic hill slope failure. Quite impressive
as slips go.
Geary
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..
"Our backyard has shifted about 10 feet, and everything is pushed closer to
our house," said Sara Koenig, 23.
She and her husband, 27, left early Sunday to study and to volunteer at a
local hospital, respectively. She said neighbors called her at 11 a.m. to
report their back fence had collapsed but her two Chihuahuas were safe.
Near helotes.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/82553087.html
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--- Begin Message ---
From: "SS" <[email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) >
If you want to be an environmentalist do so for mans sake… the earth
could care less. It can wipe us out in the blink of an eye, and ten thousand
years later you’d hardly find a trace we were ever here.
Perhaps if Mr. Backtoschoolagin (sounds like an Armenian to me!) actually
went back to school he would learn that the only reason the earth has an
atmosphere capable of supporting so called “higher” life is because of the
seemingly inconsequential actions of nearly invisible tiny little blue green
life forms (baby aliens). Mr. B was presumably homeschooled, so rather than
trust those government run tax supported commie pinko scientists I suggest
he try Mr. G’s experiment; but please, be rigorous, shove a towel
underneath the door and duct tape the cracks around the windows. When you get
to
heaven be sure to send us a report.
As for all trace of us disappearing in ten thousand years, that’s heresy!
Every red blooded god fearing American knows that even caves are no more
than 6000 years old! But wait, if the earth is going to shrug us off every ten
thousand years or so it seems that Mr. B is actually some kind of pagan
Gaia worshiper. She is obviously getting angry, so you better start building
that boat Mr B! The good new is that we have so diminished biodiversity
that two of each will fit. No more problems with the dinosaurs like _Noah_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_from_the_Earth) had!
Sleazeweazel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As only inconsequential un-intelligent life supports the earth I can
understand your predisposition for your own kind.
However, you prove my point. The earth is riddled with the bones of far
more, far larger, and far more exotic species that trod terra incognito long
before Apes knew what bananas were. These fellow sophisticants, your
obvious relatives, just didn't make the cut. The problem with your concern
is the audacity that you, man, could extinguish ALL life on earth. The
point that was being made, one obviously missed, was that even mans best
efforts of trying to rid the globe of a few bugs, birds, and sleazeweazel
would be as futile as trying to dam the ocean.
How do you know we have diminished bio diversity...as compared to what?
Diminished as compared to a period? Like 1920? 1020? 0? 10,000bc?
1,000,000 BC? Please provide your data for us to review. Because we know
from geologic history that life was nearly completely extinguished utterly
from the planet many times..yet.here we are. Somehow. Some dumb bit of goo,
probably related to you, managed to ooze out of a hole in the ground and
evolve.
To assume that Man could be as destructive as an asteroid, super-volcano, or
whatever God, or microbe you worship is ludicrous. Can I extinguish the
yellow warbler? Yep. Guess what.in a few thousand years, they'll be an
Orange one, and if we nuke ourselves into oblivion, it may have 3 legs and 5
eyes. But it will be here.taking a crap on your grave.
Thankfully, God didn't suffer me the indignity to have had to evolve from
goo. All Mayflower material here.
The fact is.if you want to see the Salamander in a hundred years, you better
get a few for the Smithsonian, because it's probably not going to make the
cut. We'll display it next to you.
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: like fleas arguing over who owns the dogs back
From: "SS" <[email protected]>
If you want to be an environmentalist do so for mans sake. the earth could
care less. It can wipe us out in the blink of an eye, and ten thousand
years later you'd hardly find a trace we were ever here.
Perhaps if Mr. Backtoschoolagin (sounds like an Armenian to me!) actually
went back to school he would learn that the only reason the earth has an
atmosphere capable of supporting so called "higher" life is because of the
seemingly inconsequential actions of nearly invisible tiny little blue green
life forms (baby aliens). Mr. B was presumably homeschooled, so rather than
trust those government run tax supported commie pinko scientists I suggest
he try Mr. G's experiment; but please, be rigorous, shove a towel underneath
the door and duct tape the cracks around the windows. When you get to heaven
be sure to send us a report.
As for all trace of us disappearing in ten thousand years, that's heresy!
Every red blooded god fearing American knows that even caves are no more
than 6000 years old! But wait, if the earth is going to shrug us off every
ten thousand years or so it seems that Mr. B is actually some kind of pagan
Gaia worshiper. She is obviously getting angry, so you better start building
that boat Mr B! The good new is that we have so diminished biodiversity that
two of each will fit. No more problems with the dinosaurs like Noah
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_from_the_Earth> had!
Sleazeweazel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To All,
What is it that we fear here? Mr. S definitely fears religion in all
forms, with the exception of the religion of science and
environmentalism. This is evidenced by several unprovoked diatribes and
attacks upon Christians, Muslims, Oztotl, and Gaia worshipers on this
list. I do not believe I remember Hebrews being mentioned, I would have
to assail my senses with the constant ranting of his writings to verify
that omission.
Mr. B seems to fear anyone who would question his faith. Is it not
enough that you have your faith? Are you in so much doubt that the Mr.
S' of the world frighten you? You may need to examine your faith, and if
you are a true Christian you will forgive Mr. S and not lower yourself
to the tactics of the insecure.
The same goes for Mr. B. Are you so unsure of your beliefs that you have
to resort to propaganda tactics? Name calling and suggesting the death
of your perceived adversaries is very childish. That is way below your
intelligence level and most others on this list.
What is the solution here? As much as I am compelled to espouse my
religious and political beliefs, I will refrain from posting them to
this list. It would be preferable to all if others would do the same.
So, let us go caving, talk about it here, have a mug of your favorite
beverage around the campfire, and agree to disagree, agreeably.
Corky the Rusticated Caver
SS wrote:
As only inconsequential un-intelligent life supports the earth I can
understand your predisposition for your own kind.
However, you prove my point. The earth is riddled with the bones of
far more, far larger, and far more exotic species that trod terra
incognito long before Apes knew what bananas were. These fellow
sophisticants, your obvious relatives, just didn�t make the cut. The
problem with your concern is the audacity that you, man, could
extinguish ALL life on earth. The point that was being made, one
obviously missed, was that even mans best efforts of trying to rid the
globe of a few bugs, birds, and sleazeweazel would be as futile as
trying to dam the ocean.
How do you know we have diminished bio diversity�..as compared to
what? Diminished as compared to a period? Like 1920? 1020? 0?
10,000bc? 1,000,000 BC? Please provide your data for us to review.
Because we know from geologic history that life was nearly completely
extinguished utterly from the planet many times�.yet�here we are.
Somehow. Some dumb bit of goo, probably related to you, managed to
ooze out of a hole in the ground and evolve.
To assume that Man could be as destructive as an asteroid,
super-volcano, or whatever God, or microbe you worship is ludicrous.
Can I extinguish the yellow warbler? Yep. Guess what�in a few thousand
years, they�ll be an Orange one, and if we nuke ourselves into
oblivion, it may have 3 legs and 5 eyes. But it will be here�taking a
crap on your grave.
Thankfully, God didn�t suffer me the indignity to have had to evolve
from goo. All Mayflower material here.
The fact is�if you want to see the Salamander in a hundred years, you
better get a few for the Smithsonian, because it�s probably not going
to make the cut. We�ll display it next to you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
*Sent:* Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:52 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* [Texascavers] Re: like fleas arguing over who owns the dogs
back
From: "SS" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
If you want to be an environmentalist do so for mans sake� the
earth could care less. It can wipe us out in the blink of an eye,
and ten thousand years later you�d hardly find a trace we were
ever here.
Perhaps if Mr. Backtoschoolagin (sounds like an Armenian to me!)
actually went back to school he would learn that the only reason the
earth has an atmosphere capable of supporting so called �higher� life
is because of the seemingly inconsequential actions of nearly
invisible tiny little blue green life forms (baby aliens). Mr. B was
presumably homeschooled, so rather than trust those government run tax
supported commie pinko scientists I suggest he try Mr. G�s experiment;
but please, be rigorous, shove a towel underneath the door and duct
tape the cracks around the windows. When you get to heaven be sure to
send us a report.
As for all trace of us disappearing in ten thousand years, that�s
heresy! Every red blooded god fearing American knows that even caves
are no more than 6000 years old! But wait, if the earth is going to
shrug us off every ten thousand years or so it seems that Mr. B is
actually some kind of pagan Gaia worshiper. She is obviously getting
angry, so you better start building that boat Mr B! The good new is
that we have so diminished biodiversity that two of each will fit. No
more problems with the dinosaurs like Noah
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_from_the_Earth> had!
Sleazeweazel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
SW, you can, keep it under 70k and it will go through, larger than
that (with the email text adds a bit more) and it won't. if you email
it to me directly, I can post to a website and give you a link if you
like.
Charles
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 9:32 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> (Photo not shown, email me and I will send it. Is there any way to post a
> resized photo on Texas caver? I see that others have occasionally posted
> photos. I tried but failed)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 1/26/2010 12:04:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
SW, you can, keep it under 70k and it will go through, larger than
that (with the email text adds a bit more) and it won't. if you email
it to me directly, I can post to a website and give you a link if you
like.
Thankee! I started by trimming the mystery rock photo down to 49K, but it
wouldn't go through. I got an administrator message in return that said
something to the effect of "I'm a robot who cannot accept any messages over
30K". So I used my non existant Photoshop elements program skills to reduce
the size again and again, but even when the document size was only 1/2 "
square it still was over 30K. Is there a better way? If 70K is acceptible
howcum it didn't go through the first time?
Sleaze
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure why its not, why not just send it to me and I'll throw
up on a website for you.
Charles
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 11:58 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/26/2010 12:04:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> SW, you can, keep it under 70k and it will go through, larger than
> that (with the email text adds a bit more) and it won't. if you email
> it to me directly, I can post to a website and give you a link if you
> like.
>
> Thankee! I started by trimming the mystery rock photo down to 49K, but it
> wouldn't go through. I got an administrator message in return that said
> something to the effect of "I'm a robot who cannot accept any messages over
> 30K". So I used my non existant Photoshop elements program skills to reduce
> the size again and again, but even when the document size was only 1/2 "
> square it still was over 30K. Is there a better way? If 70K is acceptible
> howcum it didn't go through the first time?
>
> Sleaze
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You also hadn't heard of lawsuits by those trying to make a fast buck with the
aid of an attorney with the same motive.
Fritz
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] caving and insurance
> How would a student organization like the geology club be different
> from a student organization like the caving club? Does that mean that
> so long as it's not announced as a club trip then everyone would be
> considered to be an individual caver--not a club member? --Ediger
>
Well ... at Sul Ross (early '70s) I belonged to a Geology Club
sponsored by one geology professor and I belonged to the Cave club
sponsored by another geology professor (our own DirtDoc)
Somethings were the same (meetings) we... Something were different
(trips) ... insurance then ... never heard of it
Mike
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They were there.. the abogados hadn't got that diversified yet.
You also hadn't heard of lawsuits by those trying to make a fast buck with the aid of an attorney with the same motive.
Fritz
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] caving and insurance
> How would a student organization like the geology club be different
> from a student organization like the caving club? Does that mean that
> so long as it's not announced as a club trip then everyone would be
> considered to be an individual caver--not a club member? --Ediger
>
Well ... at Sul Ross (early '70s) I belonged to a Geology Club
sponsored by one geology professor and I belonged to the Cave club
sponsored by another geology professor (our own DirtDoc)
Somethings were the same (meetings) we... Something were different
(trips) ... insurance then ... never heard of it
Mike
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--- Begin Message ---
Lawyers may not have been allowed to advertise in the early 70's but they
certainly do now.
Fritz
________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:31 AM
To: Fritz Holt
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: RE: [Texascavers] caving and insurance
They were there.. the abogados hadn't got that diversified yet.
T
Jan 26, 2010 11:24:00 AM, [email protected] wrote:
You also hadn't heard of lawsuits by those trying to make a fast buck with the
aid of an attorney with the same motive.
Fritz
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] caving and insurance
> How would a student organization like the geology club be different
> from a student organization like the caving club? Does that mean that
> so long as it's not announced as a club trip then everyone would be
> considered to be an individual caver--not a club member? --Ediger
>
Well ... at Sul Ross (early '70s) I belonged to a Geology Club
sponsored by one geology professor and I belonged to the Cave club
sponsored by another geology professor (our own DirtDoc)
Somethings were the same (meetings) we... Something were different
(trips) ... insurance then ... never heard of it
Mike
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--- Begin Message ---
According to the tabloids.. he's bought a bachelor pad with a cave.
T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I ever needed proof that Brad Pitt was sexy in every conceivable
way....now I have it.
-Mallory
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:20 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> According to the tabloids.. he's bought a bachelor pad with a cave.
>
> T.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit
> our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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> [email protected]
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--- Begin Message ---
http://thecelebritycafe.com/feature/brad-pitt-buys-bachelor-pad-01-26-2010
Don't get too worked up...it's a "man cave". Not sure what THAT is proof
of...but maybe Angelina will spill the sordid details....
--- On Tue, 1/26/10, Mallory Mayeux <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Mallory Mayeux <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Brad Pitt buys house with cave.
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 3:46 PM
If I ever needed proof that Brad Pitt was sexy in every conceivable way....now
I have it.
-Mallory
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:20 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
According to the tabloids.. he's bought a bachelor pad with a cave.
T.
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http://www.caves.org/ncrc/national/
All,
The National Cave Rescue Commission (NCRC) is hosting an Orientation
to Cave Rescue (OCR) at Colorado Bend State Park, February 27 and 28,
2010. This is an opportunity to get a brief overview of some cave
rescue techniques and meet members of local response teams who respond
to cave rescue call outs.
Additionally there will be a vertical workshop offered the day before
(26th). This workshop will be free of charge and will provide an
opportunity to learn or practice your vertical SRT skills.
The link above will take you to the NCRC main webpage with all of the
upcoming NCRC training. Just scroll down and click on the South
Central Region link.
Please contact the course coordinator Chris Jenkins (817-312-4945) if
you have any questions regarding the seminar.
Cave Safe,
DJ
DJ Walker
PO Box 90146
Austin, TX 78709
512-751-6010
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone would like to see the pics of the Yucatan mystery rocks with
alien footprints here they are:
_http://texascavers.com/pics/janfeb_2010_B_chicxulub_001.jpg_
(http://texascavers.com/pics/janfeb_2010_B_chicxulub_001.jpg)
_http://texascavers.com/pics/janfeb_2010_B_chicxulub_005.jpg_
(http://texascavers.com/pics/janfeb_2010_B_chicxulub_005.jpg)
Sleazel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mystery rocks? Alien footprints? Pardon me, but it looks like plain old breccia
to me. See:
http://geology.about.com/od/rocks/ig/sedrockindex/rocpicbreccia.htm
Louise
From: [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:22:03 -0500
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Mystery rock pics
If anyone would like to see the pics of the Yucatan mystery rocks with alien
footprints here they are:
http://texascavers.com/pics/janfeb_2010_B_chicxulub_001.jpg
http://texascavers.com/pics/janfeb_2010_B_chicxulub_005.jpg
Sleazel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From the comments page on the landslide news story:
"For the past 9 years I have lived a quarter mile away from where this
man-made disaster has occurred, and have watched it unfold with
predictability. I can't believe the developers claim to have "no information
on what caused the problem." You don't have to be an engineer to figure this
one out! These new homes were built on the top of a steep landfill hill, not
solid ground.
An initial retaining wall failed earlier in the construction, and instead of
realizing or admitting that this was a disaster waiting to happen, the
developers put a band-aid on it and pressed ahead with this ill-fated
project. It was obvious at the time that a thin retaining wall of stone and
mortar was not going to hold back a mountain of landfill dirt.
The responsibility for this mess lies squarely at the feet of the developers
and whatever idiots in the city are responsible for enforcing safe building
codes. Greed clearly trumped safety and good judgment on this one. As bad as
I feel for the homeowners in the immediate area, your best bet will be to
cut and run. Get a good lawyer and recoup your investment, then leave and
don't look back. The cheap dirt mountain on which your houses was built will
never be stable or safe.
Rob"
--- End Message ---
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There may still be a slot or two open for the next Punkin Cave survey
trip, 5-7 February. Email me off-list by this Friday if you are
interested. Serious inquiries only. Must be vertically competent and
willing to survey about 8 hours in a major bat cave.
-- Crash
[email protected]
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