texascavers Digest 8 Oct 2009 06:12:27 -0000 Issue 866
Topics (messages 12268 through 12283):
Mammoth versus Anemic
12268 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
Re: New Laws and old fun--My last word on...
12269 by: Louise Power
TCMA Board Election Announcement - 2nd Announcement
12270 by: Linda Palit
12271 by: Terry Holsinger
12277 by: Linda Palit
commercial cave for sale
12272 by: David
Free Carbide
12273 by: Bill Stephens
12276 by: Ed Alexander
12281 by: Bill Stephens
another cave for sale
12274 by: David
a Georgia cave for sale
12275 by: David
Re: [tlamaqui] Ayuda urgente Histoplasmosis
12278 by: Mark Minton
12280 by: Mark Minton
Correction on Board Members of TCMA
12279 by: Linda Palit
Men indicted on charge of killing endangered bats :
12282 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
New species discovered at Great Basin NP add to environmental debate :
12283 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
Administrivia:
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--- Begin Message ---
All,
I had an excellent response to my plea for inputs and submission fror the last
special ICS edition of The TEXAS CAVER, and I thank you whole heartedly.
Your help allowed it be a very special newsletter and one that I still enjoy
looking back at.
In that vein, while that TC was quite large (60 pages!), this next issue is
shaping up to be the polar opposite!
This is where YOU come in.
I know there have been some Amazing Maze survey trips, Carlsbad and environs
trips, Colorado Bend trips (this month and during ICS), UTG trips to Mexico,
and a whole load of trips to various caves during ICS and afterwards.
And nary a trip report.
So, unless you just want a photo album from TCR, it's up to you to help add
some substantive material to this next issue.
Please send something/anything by November 1st for inclusion.
Thanks!
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
...stupid things we did while riding in or on a car (even though it may or may
not have beein our fault):
Girl, 13, found riding in cardboard box atop van
Oct. 5, 2009 05:07 PM
Associated Press
ALBERTVILLE, Ala. - An Alabama woman has been arrested and accused of
endangering the welfare of a child after police say she let her daughter ride
in a cardboard box on top of their van.
Albertville Police spokesman Sgt. Jamie Smith said the 37-year-old woman was
arrested Sunday after police received a call about a minivan on a state highway
with a child riding on top.
Smith said the woman told police the box was too big to go inside the van, and
that her daughter was inside the box to hold it down.
Smith said the mother told officers it was safe because she had the box secured
to the van with a clothes hanger.
The 13-year-old daughter wasn't harmed and was turned over to a relative. A
jail worker said the mother was out on bond Monday.
To: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 19:26:12 -0400
From: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] New Laws and old fun
This is a pretty dead horse by now, so why not go out with a good British rant?
Here is one of the Absolutlely Fabulous girls venting (near the end)
hilariously on laws to protect the stupid:
"Bugger ugly traffic wardens and bolloky pedestrian bloody crossings!!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUosm_BBv9g
Roger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TCMA will elect 5 board members at TCR. The election will be Sunday
morning, October 18th, at the TCMA members meeting. This meeting begins at
9 am. Visitors are welcome, though they will not be able to vote. Electing
the board is the most direct way members have to provide input on the
direction and conduct of TCMA business. Please come to the meeting and
participate in this election.
Nominations for the board can be made through the nominations committee or
directly on the floor of the meeting. Candidates will asked to provide a
brief statement of their vision of TCMA's future and of the role they are
willing to play. This statement can be oral or oral/ written. A description
of the duties of a board member can be provided by any board member.
Thanks,
Linda and the TCMA Board
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Linda, thanks for this update.
Can you tell us who is on the current board (and were do they live) and
then can you list who is running (and their home town as well)?
Or would this be against the TCMA's policy's?
Like the TSA it would be a good think to have board members from all the
"major" caver areas.
Terry H.
Linda Palit wrote:
TCMA will elect 5 board members at TCR. The election will be Sunday
morning, October 18^th , at the TCMA members meeting. This meeting
begins at 9 am. Visitors are welcome, though they will not be able to
vote. Electing the board is the most direct way members have to provide
input on the direction and conduct of TCMA business. Please come to the
meeting and participate in this election.
Nominations for the board can be made through the nominations committee
or directly on the floor of the meeting. Candidates will asked to
provide a brief statement of their vision of TCMA�s future and of the
role they are willing to play. This statement can be oral or oral/
written. A description of the duties of a board member can be provided
by any board member.
Thanks,
Linda and the TCMA Board
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Of course we can list the current directors. I think they are on the
website, for future reference.
Don Arburn - SA
Aimee Beveridge - Austin
Jon Cradit - San Marcos
Allan Cobb - SA
Kevin McGowan - Houston
Joe Mitchell - SA
Linda Palit - SA
Joe Ranzau - SA
William Russell - Austin
Geary Schindel - SA
Sue Schindel - SA
Don, Aimee, Kevin, and Sue are up for re-election. I believe Aimee has
decided to not run for reelection, but will continue to manage Godwin Ranch
property.
We are seeking nominations, and the nominations committee tries to present a
slate with good candidates from different areas.
Nominations can also be made from the floor at the meeting.
The nominations committee will announce who it is putting forth as
candidates soon.
Ultimately, however, what matters is who the membership votes for, which
means coming to the meeting and voting.
I will talk to the nominations committee and see what they have, but even
after the committee puts forth a recommendation, nominations can still be
made.
We will be electing 5 directors at TCR, increasing the board numbers to 13.
This is intended to make getting a quorum easier. The board meets once a
month by phone on a week night and about 4 times a year in person.
As to TCMA policies, we try to operate under our bylaws, and use them to
guide our actions. Bylaws can be changed only at members meetings. The
bylaws say members elect board members and then board members elect the
officers. Policy is determined to try to standardize some procedures and
make explicit expectations; we have policies on things like research on TCMA
properties, conflict of interest policy, board member description and others
as needed. As TCMA has grown, we have needed to make policy and tried to do
so. But it seems something new is always coming up that would be more
functional with specific policy.
Hope that answers your questions without boring all too much; organizations
don't run themselves, but they run me crazy sometimes.
Linda
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Holsinger [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 5:46 PM
To: Linda Palit
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TCMA Board Election Announcement - 2nd
Announcement
Linda, thanks for this update.
Can you tell us who is on the current board (and where do they live) and
then can you list who is running (and their home town as well)?
Or would this be against the TCMA's policy's?
Like the TSA it would be a good think to have board members from all the
"major" caver areas.
Terry H.
Linda Palit wrote:
> TCMA will elect 5 board members at TCR. The election will be Sunday
> morning, October 18^th , at the TCMA members meeting. This meeting
> begins at 9 am. Visitors are welcome, though they will not be able to
> vote. Electing the board is the most direct way members have to provide
> input on the direction and conduct of TCMA business. Please come to the
> meeting and participate in this election.
>
>
>
> Nominations for the board can be made through the nominations committee
> or directly on the floor of the meeting. Candidates will asked to
> provide a brief statement of their vision of TCMA's future and of the
> role they are willing to play. This statement can be oral or oral/
> written. A description of the duties of a board member can be provided
> by any board member.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Linda and the TCMA Board
>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
During the Indiana NSS Convention, I took a tour of the commercial
cave, "Squire Boone Caverns."
It is for sale for just under 3 million.
http://www.unitedcountry.com/premierproperties/business-income/indiana/13049-11160.htm
I enjoyed myself there. My memory is pretty bad these days, and I
had to rush my visit to the cave,
but I seem to remember an interesting tour of a working mill, and an
interesting cave.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone is still interested in carbide, I have a barrell that is ~60% full
(or 40% empty depending on your perspective). It is available for free to
whomever claims it first. While the barrell is in beautiful, exotic Wichita
Falls, I am willing to provide it transportation to its new owner at TCR.
Bill Stephens
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I could use a half pound or so - thats a good two or three year supply.
Bring it to TCR and we'll divvy it up.
Cheers,
Ed
Bill Stephens wrote:
If anyone is still interested in carbide, I have a barrell that is ~60%
full (or 40% empty depending on your perspective). It is available for
free to whomever claims it first. While the barrell is in beautiful,
exotic Wichita Falls, I am willing to provide it transportation to its
new owner at TCR.
Bill Stephens
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Steele claimed the carbide at 10:51pm Tuesday.
See you all at TCR!
B.Stephens
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In southern France is a cave you can buy that has pre-historic graffiti
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/1296487.jpg
http://www.francedirect.net/images/stcirc.jpeg
It is only 1.3 million U.S. dollars.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A well known road-side cave in Georgia is up for sale:
This cave is on private property, and is near Rockmart, Georgia.
http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/ac882680-36f2-4386-8870-06648c89443c.jpg
Owner wants $ 140,000 for 8 acres, and claims the cave is 1,400 feet
long with lots of graffiti.
It is called "White River Cave."
Ref:
http://nssmembersforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Trips&thread=2305&page=1
Possible photo from White River Cave:
http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/log/large/2893afe4-7808-4828-84af-787943f721bd.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our friend Franco Attolini is asking for
information about histoplasmosis to help an
American in Merida. Below are a couple of
messages from the Mexican list Tlamaqui.
Mark Minton
_______________________________________
From: [email protected]
[[email protected]] On Behalf Of hadita lara [[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [tlamaqui] Ayuda urgente Histoplasmosis
Resido en la ciudad de Mérida, que deseas
exactamente? la histoplasmosis creo no estoy
segura lo ve el Centro de Investigación de
Enfermedades Tropicales "Hideyo Noguchi" donde
está hospitalizado, cual es su nombre? ya
verificaron que es histoplasmosis? fué a una gruta?
Elsi Lara
________________________________
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:49:26 +0000
Subject: [tlamaqui] Ayuda urgente Histoplasmosis
Amigos,
Un amigo esta en Merida en cuidados intensivos
debido a Istoplasmosis, esta bastante mal asi
que me etsan solicitando una recomendacion. Se
que a muchos le ha dado Histoplasmosis por que
les solicito un poco de informacion o consejos,
en un rato tendre mas informacion de mi amigo,
el ya tiene por lo menos 50 anios y es gringo.
Saludos
"Como no sabían que era imposible lo hicieron" Franco Attolini
__._,_.___
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Franco has gotten lots of information
about histo. Thanks to everyone who
responded. The afflicted person is Jim Coke, head of the QRSS.
Mark Minton
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of franco attolini
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:47 PM
To: tlamaqui tlamaqui
Subject: [tlamaqui] gracias
Amigos,
muchas gracias por sus correos, han sido de
mucha ayuda. Daniel Riordan , quien fue quien me
contacto y es un amigo en comun con Jim Coke el
companero en el Hospital, ya esta en el grupo y ha leido los mensajes.
Les agradecemos mucho su voluntad para ayudar.
Jim se encuentra delicado y por el momento es
mejor que se quede en Merida, ademas me comentan
que ya esta con los especialistas locales en la rama.
muchas gracias y esperar que todo salga bien
"Como no sabían que era imposible lo hicieron"
Franco Attolini
You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops.
I left off Jim Kennedy. It's corrected below. Can't seem to get the emails
right this week.
Apologies.
Of course we can list the current directors. I think they are on the
website, for future reference.
Don Arburn - SA
Aimee Beveridge - Austin
Jon Cradit - San Marcos
Allan Cobb - SA
Jim Kennedy - Austin
Kevin McGowan - Houston
Joe Mitchell - SA
Linda Palit - SA
Joe Ranzau - SA
William Russell - Austin
Geary Schindel - SA
Sue Schindel - SA
Don, Aimee, Kevin, and Sue are up for re-election. I believe Aimee has
decided to not run for reelection, but will continue to manage Godwin Ranch
property.
We are seeking nominations, and the nominations committee tries to present a
slate with good candidates from different areas.
Nominations can also be made from the floor at the meeting.
The nominations committee will announce who it is putting forth as
candidates soon.
Ultimately, however, what matters is who the membership votes for, which
means coming to the meeting and voting.
I will talk to the nominations committee and see what they have, but even
after the committee puts forth a recommendation, nominations can still be
made.
We will be electing 5 directors at TCR, increasing the board numbers to 13.
This is intended to make getting a quorum easier. The board meets once a
month by phone on a week night and about 4 times a year in person.
As to TCMA policies, we try to operate under our bylaws, and use them to
guide our actions. Bylaws can be changed only at members meetings. The
bylaws say members elect board members and then board members elect the
officers. Policy is determined to try to standardize some procedures and
make explicit expectations; we have policies on things like research on TCMA
properties, conflict of interest policy, board member description and others
as needed. As TCMA has grown, we have needed to make policy and tried to do
so. But it seems something new is always coming up that would be more
functional with specific policy.
Hope that answers your questions without boring all too much; organizations
don't run themselves, but they run me crazy sometimes.
Linda
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Holsinger [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 5:46 PM
To: Linda Palit
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TCMA Board Election Announcement - 2nd
Announcement
Linda, thanks for this update.
Can you tell us who is on the current board (and where do they live) and
then can you list who is running (and their home town as well)?
Or would this be against the TCMA's policy's?
Like the TSA it would be a good think to have board members from all the
"major" caver areas.
Terry H.
Linda Palit wrote:
> TCMA will elect 5 board members at TCR. The election will be Sunday
> morning, October 18^th , at the TCMA members meeting. This meeting
> begins at 9 am. Visitors are welcome, though they will not be able to
> vote. Electing the board is the most direct way members have to provide
> input on the direction and conduct of TCMA business. Please come to the
> meeting and participate in this election.
>
>
>
> Nominations for the board can be made through the nominations committee
> or directly on the floor of the meeting. Candidates will asked to
> provide a brief statement of their vision of TCMA's future and of the
> role they are willing to play. This statement can be oral or oral/
> written. A description of the duties of a board member can be provided
> by any board member.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Linda and the TCMA Board
>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pair Charged with Killing Endangered Bats
Two men have been indicted on federal charges of killing endangered bats
at Carter Caves State Park.
Posted: 9:38 AM Oct 7, 2009
Reporter: WSAZ News Staff
Email Address: [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected])
ASHLAND, Ky. (WSAZ) -- Two men have been indicted on federal charges of
killing endangered bats at Carter Caves State Park.
Kaleb Dee Morgan Carpenter and Lonnie Skaggs are charged with killing 23
bats in Laurel Cave on October 23, 2007. Skaggs is also charged with killing
another 82 bats three days later.
(http://cas.clickability.com/cac?a=287957&n=157302&d=98846&c=6500)
Wildlife officials say the bats were hibernating when they were killed.
The indictment says the pair used flashlights, rocks and their feet to
kill the bats.
If convicted, the men face up to a year in prison and a fine.
The indictment does not list where the men are from or their ages.
_http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/63668292.html_
(http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/63668292.html)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Discovery of new species in Great Basin Nation Park caves adds fuel to
debate
By HENRY BREAN
Stephens Media
Published on Wednesday, October 07, 2009
The mouth of Model Cave slopes downward into the fractured limestone face
of Nevada's second tallest mountain range.
To get inside, Gretchen Baker and Ben Roberts must slither headfirst
through an angled chute that forces their left shoulders down into powdery
dust.
Their coveralls scrape across the rock as their headlamps light the way
into the blackness.
It's the first day of fall at Great Basin National Park, and the changing
aspens have painted the flanks of Wheeler Peak with veins of yellow and
orange and red.
The change of seasons goes mostly unnoticed underground, as two of the
park service's resident cave explorers cover about 500 feet in 90 minutes,
much of it through tight passages that require them to crawl or scoot along on
their bellies.
The purpose of today's trip is to check conditions in the cave and
retrieve small devices called dataloggers, which record temperature and
moisture
levels.
While they're at it, Baker and Roberts discover what might just be a new
species of cave critter no one has ever seen before.
It isn't the first time, either.
In the past two years alone, staff members have identified at least seven
possible new cave species at Nevada's only national park, about 300 miles
northeast of Las Vegas.
So far only two of the tiny animals have been officially described and
given scientific names, but Baker and Roberts expect at least one more of
their discoveries to become official this year with the publication of a
scientific paper on the critter.
Several others are either in the process of being described or are
awaiting the collection of additional specimens.
"Every trip you go in you can find something new, which is one of the
really interesting things about caving," says Roberts, who is the park's
natural resource program manager.
Recent finds include two varieties of tiny shrimp and two new kinds of
all-white cave millipedes.
One of the millipedes was discovered in the unlikeliest of places:
crawling its way across a concrete walkway frequented by tourists at the
park's
most-visited attraction, Lehman Caves.
This literal unearthing of new critters at Great Basin could do more than
thrill entomologists and amateur bug enthusiasts. It could sharpen anxiety
about the Southern Nevada Water Authority's plans to pump billions of
gallons of groundwater a year from Snake Valley, just east of the park.
At the very least, the flurry of discoveries provides opponents with one
more argument against a project already painted by its critics as a threat
to rural residents, native plants and air quality from Ely to Salt Lake City.
Great Basin Superintendent Andy Ferguson voiced some of his concerns
during the authority's Aug. 20 meeting on the controversial pipeline.
"I wanted the Southern Nevada Water Authority to be aware that Great Basin
National Park is a national treasure, and anything that would impact on
this national treasure is something that's going to be felt throughout the
country," Ferguson said.
"I'd like them to know that we're extremely concerned -- very concerned --
and we just don't believe that the taking of water out of this little
valley will be a good thing for the park."
Snake Valley represents the final leg of the multibillion-dollar pipeline
the authority plans to build to tap groundwater across eastern Nevada.
The authority is seeking state permission to pump as much as 16 billion
gallons of water a year from the vast and sparsely populated watershed on the
Nevada-Utah border.
The valley is home to many of the authority's harshest critics, including
ranch families who have lived in the area for generations.
Baker married into one of those families. Her father-in-law is Dean Baker,
a longtime Snake Valley rancher who has become the de facto spokesman for
pipeline opponents.
For their part, though, Gretchen Baker and other staff members at Great
Basin National Park are trying to let science do the talking when it comes to
the groundwater project.
The park service is in the process of drilling four monitoring wells just
outside the park boundary as part of a research project funded through the
sale of federal land in the Las Vegas Valley.
Three more monitoring wells will be drilled inside the park as soon as an
environmental review of the work wraps up in the spring, Ferguson said.
In the meantime, Baker, Roberts and their colleagues are drawing up maps,
collecting samples and monitoring seasonal changes in the caves in hopes of
developing a baseline that can be used to identify any impacts from the
groundwater project.
One senior environmental planner for the Southern Nevada Water Authority
insists there shouldn't be any impacts.
Lisa Luptowitz said the authority's proposed wells would operate a few
thousand feet below and a "substantial distance" away from the caves and their
water sources.
As Luptowitz put it, there is a "hydrologic disconnect" between the caves
and the areas where the authority eventually plans to drill its production
wells.
She added that potential impacts to the caves will be addressed in detail
in a federal environmental review of the pipeline project. A draft of that
document is scheduled for release in the spring.
Great Basin staff members aren't just discovering new critters; they're
finding whole new caves in and around the park.
The total right now stands at 42, including the longest, deepest and
highest elevation caves in Nevada.
Baker, who is the park's ecologist, said the caves come in "a whole range
of sizes," from ones you can walk through to ones only large enough for
"belly crawling."
And then there are some that are "all vertical so you only can go up and
down on rope to see the cave," she said.
The deepest cave in Nevada, appropriately named Long Cold, has "permanent
ice in the bottom of it year round," Roberts said.
He suspects more caves might be hidden away within the park's 77,000 acres
of steep mountain terrain. There might even be one out there as large and
intricate as Lehman, which boasts more than 300 rare shield formations.
Lehman is the only cave that is open for guided tours by the general
public.
The park service issues permits to experienced spelunkers for a handful of
the other caves, but most of Great Basin's caverns are strictly
off-limits. A few of them are so dangerous that even park personnel are not
allowed
inside.
Model Cave is one of the park's most diverse in terms of biology and
hydrology. Snowmelt completely floods portions of it during the summer, but
there is evidence that the cave also gets moisture from the groundwater table
and nearby Baker Creek.
"This cave's been known for fifty years, and yet we're still finding brand
new species out of it," Roberts said.
In November, for example, Baker, Roberts and another staff member took a
survey trip 2,000 feet into the deepest reaches of Model, and on the way
back out Roberts spotted something in a puddle. Drifting in the 55-degree
water were tiny white objects that turned out to be freshwater shrimp.
He saw them but they did not see him; the shrimp have no eyes.
Baker said they put a few of the critters in a vial and sent them off to a
specialist at the University of Illinois.
"He said, 'Oh, you guys have found something new. Go get more,'" Baker
said. "It took several months and many trips to get enough of the adults to
send to him."
In the process, they stumbled across another type of shrimp they'd never
seen before, something called an ostracod.
As it turns out, finding tiny new species in a pitch-black cave isn't
always the hard part. Locating an expert to confirm a discovery can be just as
much of a shot in the dark.
"There aren't many people who describe these species. That's one of our
biggest problems," Baker said. "There is one person who would describe the
ostracods if we can find enough. He did his Ph.D. dissertation on the
ostracods of Nevada and then he went back home to Turkey."
To analyze specimens of other possible new species, the park has turned to
taxonomists in Brazil and the Czech Republic.
"A lot times there's only one or two people in the entire world who are
the experts at these things," Roberts said.
His favorite critter is the Model Cave Harvestman, a spindly, pale-orange
spider first identified and described in 1971.
Baker is partial to the Campodeid Dipluran, a primitive-looking insect
about half an inch long and all white, with long antennae and tails. She
doesn't know whether the bugs are unique to the park because she can't find a
qualified specialist who can tell her.
"There's nobody currently describing them, so they go in the deep
freezer," Baker said with a sigh.
The first day of fall yields one possible new discovery in Model Cave: a
silvery beetle about the length of an eyelash.
Roberts spots it in a small pile of organic debris about 250 feet from the
cave entrance, and Baker collects it in a small vial filled with ethyl
alcohol.
First, though, Roberts lets it crawl around on his hand so Baker can snap
its picture. The beetle scuttles so fast it's hard to photograph.
Such rapid movement suggests it could be a surface dweller that found its
way into the cavern somehow. Most cave critters move slowly due to the cold
and their own sluggish metabolisms, which help them survive on what meager
nutrients they can find in the dark.
The beetle will need to be sent off to Illinois for positive
identification, but the two smiling cave explorers say they have never seen
anything
like it before.
_http://www.elynews.com/articles/2009/10/07/news/news01.txt_
(http://www.elynews.com/articles/2009/10/07/news/news01.txt)
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