texascavers Digest 30 Nov 2009 19:50:57 -0000 Issue 898
Topics (messages 12737 through 12752):
Re: cave rescue related
12737 by: David
12738 by: Brian Riordan
caver vehicle news
12739 by: David
12740 by: Mark Minton
Palmito
12741 by: Nico Escamilla
Re: Hunters being the hunted in Mexico
12742 by: Andy Gluesenkamp
12743 by: Sheryl Rieck
12744 by: Fritz Holt
12745 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
12746 by: Sheryl Rieck
12747 by: Fritz Holt
(Off topic, but important) snopes.com: UPS/FedEx/DHL Delivery Failure
12748 by: Pete Lindsley
2010 TSA Spring Convention, April 16-18th
12749 by: ellie :)
12751 by: John Brooks
12752 by: germanyj.aol.com
Re: Nutty Putty update on cave closure :
12750 by: Louise Power
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--- Begin Message ---
I feel like I have posted this before, but can't remember.
Back in 1995, caver's gathered in the Sierra Alvarez for the 3rd Mexpeleo.
There was a female on rope in and found her self upside-down in a
tight vertical crevice. The cave was only about 1/4 mile from camp.
Her husband rushed back to
camp and found a group of about 7 cavers huddled around a campfire
trying to stay warm.
He was practically in tears begging for a cave rescue. We all just
looked at him like a deer caught in headlights. But one caver stepped
up and went and rescued her. I will let him tell the story as he is
still an active caver in the U.T. Grotto, and probably on Cavetex.
I stood outside the entrance trying to use my Spanish to help with the
Red Cross Rescue Team that had showed up. I am not sure where they
came from or why they were there so quickly. Maybe the were
attending Mexpeleo ? Anyways, there were about 20 of them, but
only one looked like he was prepared to go caving. They didn't go in
the cave, but they did
help on the surface, after she came out.
My memory tells me, that had that caver not rescued her, I might have
had to put on my gear and go down there. I think the reason I
didn't gear up was that I heard there was some tight crawling to get
to her.
Factors affecting the rescue were the weather was miserable ( fog and
cold, I think ), and all the experienced cavers were gone on the other
side of the "cordillera", in a cave that had a 700 foot drop. They
were not expected back for at least 10 hours.
I only bring all this up, because it could have been bad.
There was another accident the next day. A caver got lost in the fog
in the middle of the night. A search team spent hours looking for
him. I don't know the
outcome of that, but I presume he was found. A person could easily
step off into a pit up there in the fog. There were something like
80 pits within a mile of camp. I would love to go back up there
someday.
Feel free to correct any of this or to add to it.
David Locklear
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--- Begin Message ---
This law about calling 911 seems subjective. If we were required by
law everytime there was a cave "accident" (whatever that is) I think I
would have called it at least a half a dozen times by now. There are
plenty of times I've been with someone "stuck" or have been stuck
myself for far longer than I'd ever care for. Each time it has taken
a great amount of willpower to remain calm, ignore the cramps and just
stop moving and think for a few minutes. I've also had times where it
was so tight, I felt like I was moving more with my ribs than with any
help my arms could provide. I've grabbed a friends ankles and
repeated the inch-worm movements backwards to pull them out of a tight
spot. I can't imagine what chaos would have ensued if I had called
911 instead.
I think common sense would dictate that an "accident" is 911 worthy
when you've exhausted your personal resources/contacts or feel that
they may not be adequate. And as far as caves go, I think my few
contacts may be more adequate than most teams that 911 may put
together for these specialist rescues.
my $.02
-B
On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 1:01 AM, David <[email protected]> wrote:
> I feel like I have posted this before, but can't remember.
>
> Back in 1995, caver's gathered in the Sierra Alvarez for the 3rd Mexpeleo.
>
> There was a female on rope in and found her self upside-down in a
> tight vertical crevice. The cave was only about 1/4 mile from camp.
> Her husband rushed back to
> camp and found a group of about 7 cavers huddled around a campfire
> trying to stay warm.
>
> He was practically in tears begging for a cave rescue. We all just
> looked at him like a deer caught in headlights. But one caver stepped
> up and went and rescued her. I will let him tell the story as he is
> still an active caver in the U.T. Grotto, and probably on Cavetex.
>
> I stood outside the entrance trying to use my Spanish to help with the
> Red Cross Rescue Team that had showed up. I am not sure where they
> came from or why they were there so quickly. Maybe the were
> attending Mexpeleo ? Anyways, there were about 20 of them, but
> only one looked like he was prepared to go caving. They didn't go in
> the cave, but they did
> help on the surface, after she came out.
>
> My memory tells me, that had that caver not rescued her, I might have
> had to put on my gear and go down there. I think the reason I
> didn't gear up was that I heard there was some tight crawling to get
> to her.
>
> Factors affecting the rescue were the weather was miserable ( fog and
> cold, I think ), and all the experienced cavers were gone on the other
> side of the "cordillera", in a cave that had a 700 foot drop. They
> were not expected back for at least 10 hours.
>
> I only bring all this up, because it could have been bad.
>
> There was another accident the next day. A caver got lost in the fog
> in the middle of the night. A search team spent hours looking for
> him. I don't know the
> outcome of that, but I presume he was found. A person could easily
> step off into a pit up there in the fog. There were something like
> 80 pits within a mile of camp. I would love to go back up there
> someday.
>
> Feel free to correct any of this or to add to it.
>
> David Locklear
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You have all seen the Smart Car now. Right?
Have you seen this version of it?
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2006/2006-Smart-Forfun2-Concept-Climbing-1280x960.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Locklear said:
>Here is a new concept Jeep:
-------------
>Would you take it to the Sierra Madres, and scratch up that pretty
red expensive paint job, or ding up those shiny aluminum rims ?
Such a vehicle would be totally impractical for expedition
caving because it has almost no cargo space. Jeeps have notoriously
little room for luggage. I went on a weekend caving trip with one
other person in one once, and we barely had room for our camping and
caving gear. That's probably one reason that I have rarely if ever
seen cavers in one in Mexico. Add to that historically poor
mechanical reliability and terrible gas mileage and it's an all
around bad choice.
Mark Minton
You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good news everyone!
Palmito is again open for sport caving trips, I was there last week with the
Sea Aggies and spoke to Rogelio the former gatekeep,
he and the guy who's in charge now said it was ok for people to get off the
walkways and see the rest of the cave, provided of course that you ask for
permission at the Comandancia de Policia, and pay your ticket (which is now
$40 pesos twice as much as it used to) the one thing I dont like is that
you're not allowed to drive your vehicle up the mountain, there's a shuttle
service and you have to be out of the cave by 4pm.
Rogelio mentioned being embarrased about the fact that the new management is
also charging an entrance fee to people who were part of the cave cleanup
efforts in the past (when the city owned the cave entrance was free for us)
and asked me to talk to the mayor about it, which I might do sometime if I
bump into him.
Nico
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I read a couple of stories about those hunters who were robbed in Mexico. The
hunters in question had previously been scolded by a guy with an automatic
weapon (first RED FLAG) for throwing candy in the road as they passed local
childeren. I would be PISSED if some rich jerks threw candy in the dirt for my
kids as they blasted through my village. The gun-toting should have told them
everything they needed to know about local attitudes/security. The hunters
were admonished for shooting too close to town. Once again, bad move on the
hunters part. The locals may have called in the bad guys just to teach them a
lesson.
I am sorry that they were beaten and robbed but that behavior would have
gotten them in big trouble anywhere. I can't imagine cavers ever behaving in
such an insensitve manner as those hunters.
Ansy
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andy said:
<I read a couple of stories about those hunters who were robbed in Mexico.
The hunters in question had previously been scolded by a guy with an
automatic weapon (first RED FLAG) for throwing candy in the road as they
passed local childeren. I would be PISSED if some rich jerks threw candy in
the dirt for my kids as they blasted through my village. > This was my very
first thought as well!! They aren't dogs!
<The gun-toting should have told them everything they needed to know about
local attitudes/security. The hunters were admonished for shooting too
close to town. Once again, bad move on the hunters part. The locals may
have called in the bad guys just to teach them a lesson.> Bird shot can
carry quite a ways. It was my thought as well that they were probably
shooting towards town.
Sheryl, who just returned from 4 days in Xilitla!!!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree, the hunters should have gotten the message and cavers would not act in
this manner. However, the lawless bandits were probably not gainfully employed,
cared little about the law or the benefits of tourism to their country. What
they now know is how easy it is to take valuable property from gringo hunters,
armed ones at that. Unarmed cavers could be at risk of the same treatment.
These potential murderers could care less about your purpose for being there,
they only want your valuable items, if not your life. Caving is fun and
potentially dangerous but doing so in Mexico now adds an extra element of
danger.
Fritz
________________________________
From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 10:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Hunters being the hunted in Mexico
I read a couple of stories about those hunters who were robbed in Mexico. The
hunters in question had previously been scolded by a guy with an automatic
weapon (first RED FLAG) for throwing candy in the road as they passed local
childeren. I would be PISSED if some rich jerks threw candy in the dirt for my
kids as they blasted through my village. The gun-toting should have told them
everything they needed to know about local attitudes/security. The hunters
were admonished for shooting too close to town. Once again, bad move on the
hunters part. The locals may have called in the bad guys just to teach them a
lesson.
I am sorry that they were beaten and robbed but that behavior would have
gotten them in big trouble anywhere. I can't imagine cavers ever behaving in
such an insensitve manner as those hunters.
Ansy
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would think that they already knew how easy it is to rob bolillos. I've heard stories like this for the past 55 years, having grown up near the border. Being polite and considerate goes a long way.
I agree, the hunters should have gotten the message and cavers would not act in this manner. However, the lawless bandits were probably not gainfully employed, cared little about the law or the benefits of tourism to their country. What they now know is how easy it is to take valuable property from gringo hunters, armed ones at that. Unarmed cavers could be at risk of the same treatment. These potential murderers could care less about your purpose for being there, they only want your valuable items, if not your life. Caving is fun and potentially dangerous but doing so in Mexico now adds an extra element of danger.
Fritz
|
I read a couple of stories about those hunters who were robbed in Mexico. The hunters in question had previously been scolded by a guy with an automatic weapon (first RED FLAG) for throwing candy in the road as they passed local childeren. I would be PISSED if some rich jerks threw candy in the dirt for my kids as they blasted through my village. The gun-toting should have told them everything they needed to know about local attitudes/security. The hunters were admonished for shooting too close to town. Once again, bad move on the hunters part. The locals may have called in the bad guys just to teach them a lesson.
I am sorry that they were beaten and robbed but that behavior would have gotten them in big trouble anywhere. I can't imagine cavers ever behaving in such an insensitve manner as those hunters.
Ansy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 [email protected] |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You have no way of knowing who the robbers were or what their employment
status was. They could have been the town council sick of stupid gringos.
Are you telling me you wouldn't take a gun after people who were endangering
your children and shooting towards your house? They deserved to be robbed.
They didn't deserve to be abused, but I think if someone were being this
stupid, I might be tempted myself. Nothing happened there that doesn't
happen here. People are robbed and beaten here all the time. It doesn't
even make the news all the time because it has become so common. I find the
double standards interesting.
Sheryl
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 11:06 AM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Hunters being the hunted in Mexico
I agree, the hunters should have gotten the message and cavers would not act
in this manner. However, the lawless bandits were probably not gainfully
employed, cared little about the law or the benefits of tourism to their
country. What they now know is how easy it is to take valuable property from
gringo hunters, armed ones at that. Unarmed cavers could be at risk of the
same treatment. These potential murderers could care less about your purpose
for being there, they only want your valuable items, if not your life.
Caving is fun and potentially dangerous but doing so in Mexico now adds an
extra element of danger.
Fritz
_____
From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 10:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Hunters being the hunted in Mexico
I read a couple of stories about those hunters who were robbed in Mexico.
The hunters in question had previously been scolded by a guy with an
automatic weapon (first RED FLAG) for throwing candy in the road as they
passed local childeren. I would be PISSED if some rich jerks threw candy in
the dirt for my kids as they blasted through my village. The gun-toting
should have told them everything they needed to know about local
attitudes/security. The hunters were admonished for shooting too close to
town. Once again, bad move on the hunters part. The locals may have called
in the bad guys just to teach them a lesson.
I am sorry that they were beaten and robbed but that behavior would have
gotten them in big trouble anywhere. I can't imagine cavers ever behaving
in such an insensitve manner as those hunters.
Ansy
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All true but I have to believe that conditions are a bit worse now. The
Mexicans are a friendly people but as with all countries it only takes a few to
harm many.
Fritz
________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 11:29 AM
To: Fritz Holt
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Hunters being the hunted in Mexico
I would think that they already knew how easy it is to rob bolillos. I've heard
stories like this for the past 55 years, having grown up near the border.
Being polite and considerate goes a long way.
T
Nov 30, 2009 11:09:53 AM,
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
I agree, the hunters should have gotten the message and cavers would not act in
this manner. However, the lawless bandits were probably not gainfully employed,
cared little about the law or the benefits of tourism to their country. What
they now know is how easy it is to take valuable property from gringo hunters,
armed ones at that. Unarmed cavers could be at risk of the same treatment.
These potential murderers could care less about your purpose for being there,
they only want your valuable items, if not your life. Caving is fun and
potentially dangerous but doing so in Mexico now adds an extra element of
danger.
Fritz
________________________________
From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 10:24 AM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Hunters being the hunted in Mexico
I read a couple of stories about those hunters who were robbed in Mexico. The
hunters in question had previously been scolded by a guy with an automatic
weapon (first RED FLAG) for throwing candy in the road as they passed local
childeren. I would be PISSED if some rich jerks threw candy in the dirt for my
kids as they blasted through my village. The gun-toting should have told them
everything they needed to know about local attitudes/security. The hunters
were admonished for shooting too close to town. Once again, bad move on the
hunters part. The locals may have called in the bad guys just to teach them a
lesson.
I am sorry that they were beaten and robbed but that behavior would have
gotten them in big trouble anywhere. I can't imagine cavers ever behaving in
such an insensitve manner as those hunters.
Ansy
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another fresh virus! BEWARE of "printing out forms" that can launch a
virus on your PC!
http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/ups.asp
I don't usually forward these things, but this one apparently checks
out as real on Snopes.
- Pete
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please mark your calendars for:
*TSA Spring Convention 2010
Mother Neff State Park, Moody, TX
**April 16-18th, 2010*
This is a great time for all of us to come together to enjoy presentations,
group meals, new works at the Map & Photo Salon, treasures at the TCMA
auction, business meetings, and our favorite vendors.
Diana Tomchick & Bill Steele have graciously agreed to host the program this
year and are no doubt ready to wow us with another year of great talks on
cave geology, biology, conservancy, and exploration.
We have reservations for 15 Campsites and the Rec Hall. Camp reservations
are for Friday and Saturday Nights and we will have the hall on Saturday and
Sunday.
Link to Mother Neff State
Park<http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/findadest/parks/mother_neff/>
Link to TSA site <http://www.cavetexas.org/events/TSASC/index.html>
Show your support to Texas Caving by attending.
More details to come. This will be great!
Ellie Thoene
Your TSA Vice Chair
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey! The map of the state park notes the location of a "cave" in the park! Does
anyone know what cave this is?
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:40 PM, "ellie :)" <[email protected]> wrote:
Please mark your calendars for:
TSA Spring Convention 2010
Mother Neff State Park, Moody, TX
April 16-18th, 2010
This is a great time for all of us to come together to enjoy presentations,
group meals, new works at the Map & Photo Salon, treasures at the TCMA auction,
business meetings, and our favorite vendors.
Diana Tomchick & Bill Steele have graciously agreed to host the program this
year and are no doubt ready to wow us with another year of great talks on cave
geology, biology, conservancy, and exploration.
We have reservations for 15 Campsites and the Rec Hall. Camp reservations are
for Friday and Saturday Nights and we will have the hall on Saturday and
Sunday.
Link to Mother Neff State Park
Link to TSA site
Show your support to Texas Caving by attending.
More details to come. This will be great!
Ellie Thoene
Your TSA Vice Chair
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: http://www.texashiking.com/Locations/ShowLocation.aspx?LocationID=1527
(If you go to the link, there is a picture of the cave entrance)
The cave at the end of the last side trail marks the spot of a natural rock
overhang that hadbeen used for years by local Indians. During CCC operations
in the park the remains of threeIndians were found. Two of them were reburied
in a nearby cemetery. The third was reinterredunder the rock overhang and
marked by a plaque. Unfortunately, in 1969 someone raided the graveand stole
the marker, which was never replaced.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Brooks <[email protected]>
To: ellie :) <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:39 pm
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2010 TSA Spring Convention, April 16-18th
Hey! The map of the state park notes the location of a "cave" in the park! Does
anyone know what cave this is?
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:40 PM, "ellie :)" <[email protected]> wrote:
Please mark your calendars for:
TSA Spring Convention 2010
Mother Neff State Park, Moody, TX
April 16-18th, 2010
This is a great time for all of us to come together to enjoy presentations,
group meals, new works at the Map & Photo Salon, treasures at the TCMA auction,
business meetings, and our favorite vendors.
Diana Tomchick & Bill Steele have graciously agreed to host the program this
year and are no doubt ready to wow us with another year of great talks on cave
geology, biology, conservancy, and exploration.
We have reservations for 15 Campsites and the Rec Hall. Camp reservations are
for Friday and Saturday Nights and we will have the hall on Saturday and
Sunday.
Link to Mother Neff State Park
Link to TSA site
Show your support to Texas Caving by attending.
More details to come. This will be great!
Ellie Thoene
Your TSA Vice Chair
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The news here in Oregon featured an interview with his father who spoke for the
family. They, in consultation with law enforcement, safety services and cavers
involved, decided they did not want to put other lives at risk. The decision
was made by all involved. The cave will be closed and a memorial plaque put
over the opening.
> From: [email protected]
> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:50:12 -0600
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Nutty Putty update on cave closure :
>
> When you first hear the authorities are going to leave his body there,
> it sounds shocking.
>
> But the person who had to make the decision probably faced an enormous
> dilemma.
>
> The funds to do a recovery in December might have exceeded their
> budget or used up personnel needed
> for the hectic holidays.
>
> It is possible they just said that to get the media and the gawkers away.
>
> It is possible the body would at first be in a state that it would be
> the most difficult to remove.
>
> It is possible they felt it would be better to wait till
> after the holidays.
>
> All the available personnel was drained and emotionally distraught
> about the failed rescue.
>
> The family has higher priorities at the moment than
> getting the body out, due to the baby and the wife
> being pregnant. They are most likely too
> distraught to be worrying about how the recovery is
> coming along and the timing of planning a funeral with his remains present.
>
> He may have been Mormon, and maybe there is
> some part of the decision related to that. But, I can't
> think of any reason that would affect the decision.
>
> In light of all of this, I support the decision to leave his body
> there, for several years if necessary. I think it needs to be
> removed someday.
>
> As for closing the cave, you have to, if you leave the body in there.
> So that is a no-brainer.
>
>
> On a related note,
>
> the media claims he was "an experienced caver." You don't often see
> that expression on a CNN Headline. He was only 26
> and was a college student. So I would first question
> whether he was really an experienced caver. He was
> caving in the sense that he was in a difficult passage
> in a remote cave. But haven't hundreds of non-cavers
> made it thru this passage ? They claimed he had been caving in more
> difficult caves.
>
> I haven't seen any reports about who he was with, or what kind of gear
> they had, or what Grotto he was a member of, or whether he was an NSS
> member. There was no mention of them surveying or doing anything
> other than spelunking.
>
> So what is the correct protocol for pushing a tight downward passage ?
> Obviously, you need a person
> behind you somewhere that can hear what your situation is. Would a
> radio help ? Should you have
> a little water and granola bar in front of you ? Should
> you strip down to your underwear before entering ?
>
>
>
> He should have saved this tight-spot for a short, skinny caver. He
> was too big for this type of exploration. His speleo-talents could
> have been applied elsewhere in a much more productive capacity.
>
> His group could have put a camcorder on a flexible pole and stuck it
> down the tight-spot and got a better
> feel for the passage.
>
> A lot of caver's have made risky decisions before. I can't fit thru
> squeezes and I have no contortion skills.
> But at the Indiana NSS Convention, I went in 2 caves that pushed my
> limits at this. The trip leaders assured me I would get thru. The
> only reason I took the risk, was the contortion passage was at the
> entrance, but I was the 2nd to last person in the group
> to go, meaning the whole group could have got stuck in the cave. (
> One of them was a thru trip though ).
> I went in feet first going in and down, which really slowed me down,
> and wore me out.
>
> The last time I went to Airman's it took me quite a while to get thru
> the 1st squeeze in my underwear. That was probably 20 years ago.
> The biggest such risk I think I ever took was in a cave near Boerne,
> which I think was called Klar's Ranch Salamander Cave, in 1985.
>
> David Locklear
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
--- End Message ---
