texascavers Digest 26 Aug 2009 19:18:38 -0000 Issue 836
Topics (messages 11866 through 11877):
Re: Climbing Cave Entrances
11866 by: Linda Palit
Re: 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion
11867 by: J. LaRue Thomas
11873 by: Fritz Holt
Re: Cub Cave - part 2
11868 by: Mark Minton
11870 by: Stefan Creaser
Holy Romance! Bats Use Love Songs During Mating, Researchers Say
11869 by: Lee H. Skinner
Re: The Cavex 2009 Krubera-Voronya expedition is over
11871 by: Fofo
Re: film trailer
11872 by: Alex Sproul
Re: China contacts for a caving trip in late October?
11874 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
Reunion attendees: This just in...
11875 by: Louise Power
11876 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
11877 by: Stefan Creaser
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
HEY!
I still have and use that ladder without incident. Rickety must have been
user error! And I'd never have loaned it out for such questionable
endeavors!
From: Gary McDaniel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:52 AM
To: SS
Cc: Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Climbing Cave Entrances
Back in '93 or '94 a close friend (I'll not name him here) and I
"cleaned" the Cub overhang (with the assistance of Joe and Linda's
extraordinarily rickety 30ft extension ladder) of all those ugly 'biners
and 'draws and and used the leavings to subsidize my early caving career. I
certainly don't mean to suggest any other young caver undertake the same
endeavor. T'would be a shame for a few climbers to lose some gear as to
allow a young caver to save a few extra dollars for powdered potato fueled
south'rn Mexican expeditions..... A sin I tell 'ya!
-Gary MacDaniels
Da Junk, Coloraddy
On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:34 PM, SS <[email protected]> wrote:
Ahh..but at the end of the day.aren't all those unsightly marks just an
eyesore for us humans occupying this mere blink the geologic eye.. At the
end of the day there really is nothing we can do to harm a cave since it is
not the same place today that it was ten thousand years ago and it will not
be the same place in ten thousand years from now as it is today. In fact,
we may not even be around in ten thousand years. So technically..all this
really boils down to present day human perception of what "Impact" is on a
cave.
I'm sure no indigenous person ever trashed a cave or wrote graffiti on the
walls or left their garbage lying around.. Oh wait.they did. But since it
was over a hundred years ago its considered "Historical"... So wait a
hundred years and those holes and chalk marks will be historical not
unsightly! Amazing how time cures all!
Father Time
_____
From: Mark Minton [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:18 PM
To: 'Cavers Texas'
Subject: [Texascavers] Climbing Cave Entrances
David Locklear said:
I think what I am trying to say is that cavers need to draw the line
somewhere, when it comes to a bunch
of rock-climbers rigging and naming various bolted routes all over the pits.
In parts of the West where lava tubes are common, some had become
favorite spots for rock climbers. Some tubes were heavily bolted with
routes going up across the ceilings of the tubes. The climbers also left
lots of unsightly white marks from the chalk they use on their hands. It
got so bad in some areas that the federal agencies involved with land
management (BLM, USFS) banned the practice. That was several years ago. I
haven't heard much about it recently, so maybe it has become less common.
Mark Minton
You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--
~Gary McDaniel
Grand Junction, CO
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--- Begin Message ---
It's next to Fort Worth...
That's one point, anyway. J.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bentley" <[email protected]>
"TexasCavers" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion
Which ones?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Goldsmith" <[email protected]>
To: "Stefan Creaser" <[email protected]>
Cc: "John P. Brooks" <[email protected]>; "Linda Palit"
<[email protected]>; "Andy Zenker" <[email protected]>;
"TexasCavers" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion
:P
Dallas does have its good points...
On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Stefan Creaser<[email protected]>
wrote:
Wouldn't happen, who'd want to go to Dallas? ;-)
Stefan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arlington's not bad either.
Fritz
-----Original Message-----
From: J. LaRue Thomas [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:01 AM
To: TexasCavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion
It's next to Fort Worth...
That's one point, anyway. J.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Bentley" <[email protected]>
"TexasCavers" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion
> Which ones?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Goldsmith" <[email protected]>
> To: "Stefan Creaser" <[email protected]>
> Cc: "John P. Brooks" <[email protected]>; "Linda Palit"
> <[email protected]>; "Andy Zenker" <[email protected]>;
> "TexasCavers" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 2009 Texas Cavers Reunion
>
>
>> :P
>>
>> Dallas does have its good points...
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Stefan
>> Creaser<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> Wouldn't happen, who'd want to go to Dallas? ;-)
>>>
>>> Stefan
>>>
>>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan Creaser said:
>>3. I think my concern is that the large number of bolts that
could suddenly appear in a scenic cave.
>3) Probably not, there would be plenty of stuff to tie the ropes too
Actually that's not always true. In fact these days with
European style rigging and thinner ropes it's not even usually
true. More often than not a rig point that will provide a free hang
down a pit does not exist naturally, so bolts are common. Bolt
proliferation by cavers can certainly be a problem, which is why a
lot of caves are now rigged with stainless steel hardware that lasts
for years and can be cautiously trusted by all cavers, not just the
ones who placed them. In Europe it is common for clubs to maintain
the bolts in popular caves precisely to prevent each visitor from
being tempted to install his/her own. Glue-in bolts seem to be
preferred for those applications.
David Locklear said:
>>7. I think it should be also noted, that rock-climbers try to
use as few bolts as possible, and that cavers who are doing something
called "bolt-climbing," use 3 or 4 times as many bolts on a route up a wall.
A good caver bolt climber will not use any more bolts than a
good rock climber. Bolts are time and money. Caver climbers use a
lot of the same aids that rock climbers use, like chocks and cams,
where appropriate. The problem in caves is that conditions are often
not conducive to these more environmentally friendly aids. We cavers
have to deal with things like mud, water and flowstone, which are not
usually an issue outside. There's also a philosophical
difference. For rock climbers the climb itself is the whole point,
while for cavers getting to whatever passage is at the top is the
point. In that respect caver climbers may be more cautious, and less
concerned about finesse.
Mark Minton
You may reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Mark Minton [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Cub Cave - part 2
Stefan Creaser said:
>>3. I think my concern is that the large number of bolts that could
suddenly appear in a scenic cave.
>3) Probably not, there would be plenty of stuff to tie the ropes too
Actually that's not always true. In fact these days with
European style rigging and thinner ropes it's not even usually true.
More often than not a rig point that will provide a free hang down a pit
does not exist naturally, so bolts are common. Bolt proliferation by
cavers can certainly be a problem, which is why a lot of caves are now
rigged with stainless steel hardware that lasts for years and can be
cautiously trusted by all cavers, not just the ones who placed them. In
Europe it is common for clubs to maintain the bolts in popular caves
precisely to prevent each visitor from being tempted to install his/her
own. Glue-in bolts seem to be preferred for those applications.
Hi Mark, Being from Europe (England really...) I know how bolts are used
and maintained over there. Before there was a wave of gluing-in and
proper maintenance (including the removal of old bolts) I remember
having to search amongst multiple *extremely* dodgy bolts to find one
even vaguely safe to hang from! Thank goodness for progress.
My tongue-in-cheek response alluded to the fact one could hang ones
ropes from the scenic bits in the cave, ie. the formations :-)
Cheers,
Stefan
--
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
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please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090825090751.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
�Hola!
From the Spanish language caver's list "Tlamaqui"
- Fofo
----------------------------------
Privet!
The 2009 Krubera-Voronya expedition finished. It's a two-part work, with
this summer being mostly the preparation for next year's push to dive
Sump 5 ("Dva Kapitana") at -2140 m. This 2009-2010 campaign is called
"Operation -2200m." That would be awesome!
You can find a report here (in Spanish and Russian, the English version
is apparently not ready yet):
http://www.cavex-team.eu/expeditions/Arabika_2009_leto.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, Greg! Stupendous trailer! Herman and Nico couldn't have said it
better! I'm on the edge of my armchair!
Alex
On 24 Aug 2009 at 20:34, Nico Escamilla wrote:
>
> Summer 2010? I cant wait a whole year to see it
>
> wrote:
> Finally what Planet Earth: Caves should have been like.
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Greg Passmore
> Just an update on our shooting
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjyWTS_O7cM&feature=email
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Sproul, NSS 8086
SpeleMedia Coordinator, ICS 2009
00-1-540-377-6364 Skype alex.sproul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Renee Skwara" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 3:33:20 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: [Texascavers] China contacts for a caving trip in late October?
I am going to China in late October this year and have heard that there are
some amazing caves over there!! If anyone knows of someone who lives in China,
in the caving community, that would know of any possibilites or have
information about visiting some caves while I am there; I am really interested
in getting in contact with them. If you could send me their contact
information or any information. I would greatly appreciate it!
Please contact me off the list at:
[email protected]
cell: 830-377-1814
Thanks!!
Renee Skwara
Bexar Grotto Member
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hi Renee:
I have been traveling to the caves of China since 1993 and have been involved
with caving expeditions there.
Wandering into caves on your own in China is not at all like doing so here in
the US of A. It is very likely to attract the attention of the local
authorities. Depending on where you are and the mood of the local officials
that could be a very non-trivial event. China is essentially a police state
and the locals tend to be suspicious of Foreign Devils trecking around in their
countryside, especially if strangely bedecked with hard-hats and weird-looking
caving gear. Obtaining permission (officially required) and directions is
difficult or impossible without speaking passable Mandarin.
Expedition caving in China has typically been difficult and expensive for
foreigners, and usually mired in convoluted bureaucracy. That said, there is
an English-speaking group of cavers living in China who are more-or-less based
in Wulong, SE of Chongqing. They are the Hong Meigui (Red Rose) Cave
Exploration Society and are organized by an American, Erin Lynch. She is also
the director of the Tongzi Center for Karst and Cave Exploration. You can see
what they are up to (some truly world-class caving!!) and contact them at
http://www.hongmeigui.net/
Many Chinese caves are not for the timid: ½ kilometer-deep open surface pits,
1,000-meter deep caves, and humongous river passages that flood tens of meters
during the wet season. Much of this is in remote rural areas where many of
the natives don’t even speak Mandarin. Erin was at the ICS and is
occasionally in Bowling Green, Kty, where she is completing her schooling under
Chris Groves at the Hoffman Environmental Research Institute.
My wife and I organize and lead commercial tourist trips to the Chinese Karst.
Due to the problems of foreigners conducting wild cave visits, these are NOT
caving trips as such. We do get into a lot of caves and see a lot of fabulous
countryside. These are not caver-camping trips where we sleep with the pigs
and cook our own food from the local markets, but rather are tourist trips
where we stay in comfortable hotels and dine well in local restaurants. They
are like extended NSS convention geology field trips with the addition of a lot
of cultural experiences. If you have an interest, you can check us out at
http://www.focusedtours.com/
We will be in far western China in September and October, but not in the karst.
Our next karst trip to China will be October 2010 – folks are signing up for
that now, as the trip is limited in size.
Dwight Deal
Aka: DirtDoc
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Beer prices are going up again. Buy it now before the reunion.
Anheuser-Busch InBev and MillerCoors say they will raise prices.
Posted by Elizabeth Strott on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:37 AM
Beer drinkers, get ready to shell out more for a Bud: Anheuser-Busch InBev
(AHBIY) is boosting the price of its brews.
The increases will occur later this year and will cover "different price
tiers," the company told The Wall Street Journal late Tuesday.
"We do plan on taking prices up in the fall on the majority of our volume in
the majority of the U.S.," Dave Peacock, president of Anheuser-Busch InBev's
U.S. division, told the paper. "The environment is very favorable, we think."
Rival MillerCoors also plans price increases. "We have seen very strong pricing
to date this year, and we are projecting a favorable pricing environment moving
forward," Brad Schwartz, the vice president of revenue management and sales
development at MillerCoors, told the Journal. MillerCoors is a joint venture
of Molson Coors (TAP) and SABMiller (SBMRF).
Neither company said how big the price increases would be.
Beer prices in the U.S. have been rising despite the recession. In July, the
price of beer, ale and other malt beverages sold for consumption at home had
risen 4.6% from July 2008, according to the Labor Department's Consumer Price
Index. The year before, prices rose 5.3%.
Meanwhile, distilled spirits rose 2%, and wine was up 1.6% in July. Consumer
prices overall were down 2.1% in July, the biggest year-over-year drop since
1950.
Belgian InBev bought Anheuser-Busch last year.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another good reason to drink the official beer of ICS:
Shiner!
www.shiner.com
Mark
________________________________
From: Louise Power [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wed 8/26/2009 2:13 PM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] Reunion attendees: This just in...
Beer prices are going up again. Buy it now before the reunion.
Anheuser-Busch InBev and MillerCoors say they will raise prices.
Posted by Elizabeth Strott
<http://boards.msn.com/profile.aspx?userid=2841185&forumid=18> on Wednesday,
August 26, 2009 8:37 AM
Beer drinkers, get ready to shell out more for a Bud: Anheuser-Busch InBev
(AHBIY <http://moneycentral.msn.com/detail/stock_quote?symbol=AHBIY&ww=1> ) is
boosting the price of its brews.
The increases will occur later this year and will cover "different price
tiers," the company told The Wall Street Journal late Tuesday.
"We do plan on taking prices up in the fall on the majority of our volume in
the majority of the U.S.," Dave Peacock, president of Anheuser-Busch InBev's
U.S. division, told the paper. "The environment is very favorable, we think."
Rival MillerCoors also plans price increases. "We have seen very strong pricing
to date this year, and we are projecting a favorable pricing environment moving
forward," Brad Schwartz, the vice president of revenue management and sales
development at MillerCoors, told the Journal. MillerCoors is a joint venture
of Molson Coors (TAP
<http://moneycentral.msn.com/detail/stock_quote?symbol=TAP&ww=1> ) and
SABMiller (SBMRF
<http://moneycentral.msn.com/detail/stock_quote?Symbol=sbmrf&getquote=Get+Quote>
).
Neither company said how big the price increases would be.
Beer prices in the U.S. have been rising despite the recession. In July, the
price of beer, ale and other malt beverages sold for consumption at home had
risen 4.6% from July 2008, according to the Labor Department's Consumer Price
Index. The year before, prices rose 5.3%.
Meanwhile, distilled spirits rose 2%, and wine was up 1.6% in July. Consumer
prices overall were down 2.1% in July, the biggest year-over-year drop since
1950.
Belgian InBev bought Anheuser-Busch last year.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's ok, I won't be drinking Miller or Bud Lite.
Stefan
From: Louise Power [mailto:[email protected]]
Beer prices are going up again. Buy it now before the reunion.
Anheuser-Busch InBev and MillerCoors say they will raise prices.
--
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
medium. Thank you.
--- End Message ---
