texascavers Digest 11 Jun 2009 15:57:27 -0000 Issue 777
Topics (messages 10955 through 10973):
Re: Figure-8 not proper for caving?
10955 by: Geary Schindel
10958 by: Linda Palit
10962 by: Geary Schindel
10967 by: Brian Riordan
10968 by: Geary Schindel
10971 by: wa5pok.peoplepc.com
10972 by: Fofo
10973 by: Fofo
Texas Cave Conservancy Summer event
10956 by: Mike Walsh
making "The Cave"
10957 by: Mixon Bill
more on figure 8s
10959 by: Jim Kennedy
Re: Are any of you twittering?
10960 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
Re: DVD Review - The Cavern ( part 1 of review )
10961 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
cave movies
10963 by: Charles Goldsmith
Re: bright lights and flares
10964 by: Brian Riordan
The Cavern
10965 by: wa5pok.peoplepc.com
10969 by: wa5pok.peoplepc.com
10970 by: Lyndon Tiu
Re: Best Use of 'These Awful Movies
10966 by: Alex Sproul
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
Couple of comments on the Figure 8.
They are suitable for caving as long as you are aware of and willing to
put up with the limitations, much as any rappel device.
Pros
They have no moving parts and can't be easily rigged
incorrectly.
They are relatively cheap in comparison to other devices
They are light
They are compact
They can be easy to drop if you don't know some of the rigging
tricks, as you have to disconnect the device from the harness to attach
to the rope.
Some have ears (rescue 8's), which are bulkier, but all Figure
8's can be locked off.
Commonly used in Youth Programs because they are hard to screw
up, cheap, and simple to use
Relatively durable on CLEAN ropes.
They can be used with single or double ropes
They will accept a wide range of rope sizes
Generally, most folks like to limit their use to drops of less
than 200 feet and I don't like to use them on drops over 100 feet.
Depending upon the drop, you may have to feed rope with longer
drops.
They are a non-variable friction device is that the friction
from the device can't be easily changed with a standard Figure 8. That
is why some of the newer design variants such as the Piranha,
which do allow you to easilt add or subtract friction, are becoming more
popular.
They may be slightly easier to learn on in the sense that you
can't modify friction which is one less factor you have to teach for the
first timer.
Cons,
Big folks may find them fast,
They wear very quickly, as in one rappel, on a dirty rope (read
rat tail file).
If you use them on dirty ropes, you will have to replace them
more often than rappel devices that allow you to change out the friction
surfaces, so for cavers, they may not be economical
They twist the rope, which can make ascending nauseating from
the spin in the rope. It is a misconception that repeated use of a
Figure 8 may damage the rope. There are more rappels done with
a Figure 8 than any other device and probably all devices combined.
There has never been a rope failure caused by a Figure 8. However,
barfing on the rope probably isn't good for it.
There is a risk of dropping the device during changeovers.
Regarding Bill's comment that it may be necessary to obtain more
friction by rapping the rope around the hips, this is not generally
recommended for a couple of reasons. For example, if the user is right
handed, rigged in this fashion, the rope exits the rappel device on the
left side of the person, passes behind the back (hips) of the rappeller,
then reaches the right brake hand, this can present a couple of
problems. If the rappeller let's go of the rope with their right hand,
the rope will fall to the back of the rappeller, they will not be able
to gain control of the rope and will be unable to arrest or control the
rappel. They will probably not be able to recover the rope. Second,
the rope will usually find an indication to ride in around the hips.
This is usually caused by the webbing so you will now have a moving
piece of nylon (the rope) running against a standing piece of nylon (the
harness), which may create severe abrasion and possibly failure. If you
need more friction, use a different device. There are ways to modify
the friction on the device using either a double rap or another
carabineer, but they are beyond this discussion.
When would I use a Figure 8. For short caving drops, especially a long
distance into the cave, for rock climbing, and for canyoneering.
Geary Schindel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Figure 8's twist the rope. That is bearable for a 20 or 30 foot rope, but I
ask people not to use figure 8's on my rope if the drop is longer. It just
creates hassles in coiling and using the rope that seem unnecessary to me.
I do have several, and they have uses, but not on long drops and seldom on
drops on my rope --
Linda
-----Original Message-----
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:23 AM
To: Lyndon Tiu; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Figure-8 not proper for caving?
Couple of comments on the Figure 8.
They are suitable for caving as long as you are aware of and willing to
put up with the limitations, much as any rappel device.
Pros
They have no moving parts and can't be easily rigged
incorrectly.
They are relatively cheap in comparison to other devices
They are light
They are compact
They can be easy to drop if you don't know some of the rigging
tricks, as you have to disconnect the device from the harness to attach
to the rope.
Some have ears (rescue 8's), which are bulkier, but all Figure
8's can be locked off.
Commonly used in Youth Programs because they are hard to screw
up, cheap, and simple to use
Relatively durable on CLEAN ropes.
They can be used with single or double ropes
They will accept a wide range of rope sizes
Generally, most folks like to limit their use to drops of less
than 200 feet and I don't like to use them on drops over 100 feet.
Depending upon the drop, you may have to feed rope with longer
drops.
They are a non-variable friction device is that the friction
from the device can't be easily changed with a standard Figure 8. That
is why some of the newer design variants such as the Piranha,
which do allow you to easilt add or subtract friction, are becoming more
popular.
They may be slightly easier to learn on in the sense that you
can't modify friction which is one less factor you have to teach for the
first timer.
Cons,
Big folks may find them fast,
They wear very quickly, as in one rappel, on a dirty rope (read
rat tail file).
If you use them on dirty ropes, you will have to replace them
more often than rappel devices that allow you to change out the friction
surfaces, so for cavers, they may not be economical
They twist the rope, which can make ascending nauseating from
the spin in the rope. It is a misconception that repeated use of a
Figure 8 may damage the rope. There are more rappels done with
a Figure 8 than any other device and probably all devices combined.
There has never been a rope failure caused by a Figure 8. However,
barfing on the rope probably isn't good for it.
There is a risk of dropping the device during changeovers.
Regarding Bill's comment that it may be necessary to obtain more
friction by rapping the rope around the hips, this is not generally
recommended for a couple of reasons. For example, if the user is right
handed, rigged in this fashion, the rope exits the rappel device on the
left side of the person, passes behind the back (hips) of the rappeller,
then reaches the right brake hand, this can present a couple of
problems. If the rappeller let's go of the rope with their right hand,
the rope will fall to the back of the rappeller, they will not be able
to gain control of the rope and will be unable to arrest or control the
rappel. They will probably not be able to recover the rope. Second,
the rope will usually find an indication to ride in around the hips.
This is usually caused by the webbing so you will now have a moving
piece of nylon (the rope) running against a standing piece of nylon (the
harness), which may create severe abrasion and possibly failure. If you
need more friction, use a different device. There are ways to modify
the friction on the device using either a double rap or another
carabineer, but they are beyond this discussion.
When would I use a Figure 8. For short caving drops, especially a long
distance into the cave, for rock climbing, and for canyoneering.
Geary Schindel
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's correct,
To counteract the spin, some folks have found that if you rig the figure
8 for a left exit from the device in the northern hemisphere, the twist
imparted in the rope is neutralized by the Coriolis effect and you won't
spin when ascending the rope. :) LOL
Geary
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Palit [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:36 AM
To: Geary Schindel; 'Lyndon Tiu'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Figure-8 not proper for caving?
Figure 8's twist the rope. That is bearable for a 20 or 30 foot rope,
but I
ask people not to use figure 8's on my rope if the drop is longer. It
just
creates hassles in coiling and using the rope that seem unnecessary to
me.
I do have several, and they have uses, but not on long drops and seldom
on
drops on my rope --
Linda
-----Original Message-----
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:23 AM
To: Lyndon Tiu; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Figure-8 not proper for caving?
Couple of comments on the Figure 8.
They are suitable for caving as long as you are aware of and willing to
put up with the limitations, much as any rappel device.
Pros
They have no moving parts and can't be easily rigged
incorrectly.
They are relatively cheap in comparison to other devices
They are light
They are compact
They can be easy to drop if you don't know some of the rigging
tricks, as you have to disconnect the device from the harness to attach
to the rope.
Some have ears (rescue 8's), which are bulkier, but all Figure
8's can be locked off.
Commonly used in Youth Programs because they are hard to screw
up, cheap, and simple to use
Relatively durable on CLEAN ropes.
They can be used with single or double ropes
They will accept a wide range of rope sizes
Generally, most folks like to limit their use to drops of less
than 200 feet and I don't like to use them on drops over 100 feet.
Depending upon the drop, you may have to feed rope with longer
drops.
They are a non-variable friction device is that the friction
from the device can't be easily changed with a standard Figure 8. That
is why some of the newer design variants such as the Piranha,
which do allow you to easilt add or subtract friction, are becoming more
popular.
They may be slightly easier to learn on in the sense that you
can't modify friction which is one less factor you have to teach for the
first timer.
Cons,
Big folks may find them fast,
They wear very quickly, as in one rappel, on a dirty rope (read
rat tail file).
If you use them on dirty ropes, you will have to replace them
more often than rappel devices that allow you to change out the friction
surfaces, so for cavers, they may not be economical
They twist the rope, which can make ascending nauseating from
the spin in the rope. It is a misconception that repeated use of a
Figure 8 may damage the rope. There are more rappels done with
a Figure 8 than any other device and probably all devices combined.
There has never been a rope failure caused by a Figure 8. However,
barfing on the rope probably isn't good for it.
There is a risk of dropping the device during changeovers.
Regarding Bill's comment that it may be necessary to obtain more
friction by rapping the rope around the hips, this is not generally
recommended for a couple of reasons. For example, if the user is right
handed, rigged in this fashion, the rope exits the rappel device on the
left side of the person, passes behind the back (hips) of the rappeller,
then reaches the right brake hand, this can present a couple of
problems. If the rappeller let's go of the rope with their right hand,
the rope will fall to the back of the rappeller, they will not be able
to gain control of the rope and will be unable to arrest or control the
rappel. They will probably not be able to recover the rope. Second,
the rope will usually find an indication to ride in around the hips.
This is usually caused by the webbing so you will now have a moving
piece of nylon (the rope) running against a standing piece of nylon (the
harness), which may create severe abrasion and possibly failure. If you
need more friction, use a different device. There are ways to modify
the friction on the device using either a double rap or another
carabineer, but they are beyond this discussion.
When would I use a Figure 8. For short caving drops, especially a long
distance into the cave, for rock climbing, and for canyoneering.
Geary Schindel
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So there should be no twist issues at the equator? Or do you rig it
to have a forward or front exit at that latitude?... So many nuances
to this issue!
:)
On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Geary
Schindel<[email protected]> wrote:
> That's correct,
>
> To counteract the spin, some folks have found that if you rig the figure
> 8 for a left exit from the device in the northern hemisphere, the twist
> imparted in the rope is neutralized by the Coriolis effect and you won't
> spin when ascending the rope. :) LOL
>
>
> Geary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Linda Palit [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:36 AM
> To: Geary Schindel; 'Lyndon Tiu'; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Figure-8 not proper for caving?
>
> Figure 8's twist the rope. That is bearable for a 20 or 30 foot rope,
> but I
> ask people not to use figure 8's on my rope if the drop is longer. It
> just
> creates hassles in coiling and using the rope that seem unnecessary to
> me.
> I do have several, and they have uses, but not on long drops and seldom
> on
> drops on my rope --
>
> Linda
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:23 AM
> To: Lyndon Tiu; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Figure-8 not proper for caving?
>
> Couple of comments on the Figure 8.
>
> They are suitable for caving as long as you are aware of and willing to
> put up with the limitations, much as any rappel device.
>
> Pros
> They have no moving parts and can't be easily rigged
> incorrectly.
> They are relatively cheap in comparison to other devices
> They are light
> They are compact
> They can be easy to drop if you don't know some of the rigging
> tricks, as you have to disconnect the device from the harness to attach
> to the rope.
> Some have ears (rescue 8's), which are bulkier, but all Figure
> 8's can be locked off.
> Commonly used in Youth Programs because they are hard to screw
> up, cheap, and simple to use
> Relatively durable on CLEAN ropes.
> They can be used with single or double ropes
> They will accept a wide range of rope sizes
> Generally, most folks like to limit their use to drops of less
> than 200 feet and I don't like to use them on drops over 100 feet.
> Depending upon the drop, you may have to feed rope with longer
> drops.
> They are a non-variable friction device is that the friction
> from the device can't be easily changed with a standard Figure 8. That
> is why some of the newer design variants such as the Piranha,
> which do allow you to easilt add or subtract friction, are becoming more
> popular.
> They may be slightly easier to learn on in the sense that you
> can't modify friction which is one less factor you have to teach for the
> first timer.
>
>
> Cons,
> Big folks may find them fast,
> They wear very quickly, as in one rappel, on a dirty rope (read
> rat tail file).
> If you use them on dirty ropes, you will have to replace them
> more often than rappel devices that allow you to change out the friction
> surfaces, so for cavers, they may not be economical
> They twist the rope, which can make ascending nauseating from
> the spin in the rope. It is a misconception that repeated use of a
> Figure 8 may damage the rope. There are more rappels done with
> a Figure 8 than any other device and probably all devices combined.
> There has never been a rope failure caused by a Figure 8. However,
> barfing on the rope probably isn't good for it.
> There is a risk of dropping the device during changeovers.
>
> Regarding Bill's comment that it may be necessary to obtain more
> friction by rapping the rope around the hips, this is not generally
> recommended for a couple of reasons. For example, if the user is right
> handed, rigged in this fashion, the rope exits the rappel device on the
> left side of the person, passes behind the back (hips) of the rappeller,
> then reaches the right brake hand, this can present a couple of
> problems. If the rappeller let's go of the rope with their right hand,
> the rope will fall to the back of the rappeller, they will not be able
> to gain control of the rope and will be unable to arrest or control the
> rappel. They will probably not be able to recover the rope. Second,
> the rope will usually find an indication to ride in around the hips.
> This is usually caused by the webbing so you will now have a moving
> piece of nylon (the rope) running against a standing piece of nylon (the
> harness), which may create severe abrasion and possibly failure. If you
> need more friction, use a different device. There are ways to modify
> the friction on the device using either a double rap or another
> carabineer, but they are beyond this discussion.
>
> When would I use a Figure 8. For short caving drops, especially a long
> distance into the cave, for rock climbing, and for canyoneering.
>
> Geary Schindel
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm much more concerned with the fact that if everyone countered the Coriolis
effect at the same time, would the planet stop spinning. Therefore, would all
the cavers migrate to the dark side of the planet.
Geary
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Riordan [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:46 AM
To: Geary Schindel
Cc: Linda Palit; Lyndon Tiu; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Figure-8 not proper for caving?
So there should be no twist issues at the equator? Or do you rig it
to have a forward or front exit at that latitude?... So many nuances
to this issue!
:)
On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Geary
Schindel<[email protected]> wrote:
> That's correct,
>
> To counteract the spin, some folks have found that if you rig the figure
> 8 for a left exit from the device in the northern hemisphere, the twist
> imparted in the rope is neutralized by the Coriolis effect and you won't
> spin when ascending the rope. :) LOL
>
>
> Geary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Linda Palit [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:36 AM
> To: Geary Schindel; 'Lyndon Tiu'; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Figure-8 not proper for caving?
>
> Figure 8's twist the rope. That is bearable for a 20 or 30 foot rope,
> but I
> ask people not to use figure 8's on my rope if the drop is longer. It
> just
> creates hassles in coiling and using the rope that seem unnecessary to
> me.
> I do have several, and they have uses, but not on long drops and seldom
> on
> drops on my rope --
>
> Linda
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:23 AM
> To: Lyndon Tiu; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Figure-8 not proper for caving?
>
> Couple of comments on the Figure 8.
>
> They are suitable for caving as long as you are aware of and willing to
> put up with the limitations, much as any rappel device.
>
> Pros
> They have no moving parts and can't be easily rigged
> incorrectly.
> They are relatively cheap in comparison to other devices
> They are light
> They are compact
> They can be easy to drop if you don't know some of the rigging
> tricks, as you have to disconnect the device from the harness to attach
> to the rope.
> Some have ears (rescue 8's), which are bulkier, but all Figure
> 8's can be locked off.
> Commonly used in Youth Programs because they are hard to screw
> up, cheap, and simple to use
> Relatively durable on CLEAN ropes.
> They can be used with single or double ropes
> They will accept a wide range of rope sizes
> Generally, most folks like to limit their use to drops of less
> than 200 feet and I don't like to use them on drops over 100 feet.
> Depending upon the drop, you may have to feed rope with longer
> drops.
> They are a non-variable friction device is that the friction
> from the device can't be easily changed with a standard Figure 8. That
> is why some of the newer design variants such as the Piranha,
> which do allow you to easilt add or subtract friction, are becoming more
> popular.
> They may be slightly easier to learn on in the sense that you
> can't modify friction which is one less factor you have to teach for the
> first timer.
>
>
> Cons,
> Big folks may find them fast,
> They wear very quickly, as in one rappel, on a dirty rope (read
> rat tail file).
> If you use them on dirty ropes, you will have to replace them
> more often than rappel devices that allow you to change out the friction
> surfaces, so for cavers, they may not be economical
> They twist the rope, which can make ascending nauseating from
> the spin in the rope. It is a misconception that repeated use of a
> Figure 8 may damage the rope. There are more rappels done with
> a Figure 8 than any other device and probably all devices combined.
> There has never been a rope failure caused by a Figure 8. However,
> barfing on the rope probably isn't good for it.
> There is a risk of dropping the device during changeovers.
>
> Regarding Bill's comment that it may be necessary to obtain more
> friction by rapping the rope around the hips, this is not generally
> recommended for a couple of reasons. For example, if the user is right
> handed, rigged in this fashion, the rope exits the rappel device on the
> left side of the person, passes behind the back (hips) of the rappeller,
> then reaches the right brake hand, this can present a couple of
> problems. If the rappeller let's go of the rope with their right hand,
> the rope will fall to the back of the rappeller, they will not be able
> to gain control of the rope and will be unable to arrest or control the
> rappel. They will probably not be able to recover the rope. Second,
> the rope will usually find an indication to ride in around the hips.
> This is usually caused by the webbing so you will now have a moving
> piece of nylon (the rope) running against a standing piece of nylon (the
> harness), which may create severe abrasion and possibly failure. If you
> need more friction, use a different device. There are ways to modify
> the friction on the device using either a double rap or another
> carabineer, but they are beyond this discussion.
>
> When would I use a Figure 8. For short caving drops, especially a long
> distance into the cave, for rock climbing, and for canyoneering.
>
> Geary Schindel
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
... and don't forget about declination and right ascension ..
> So there should be no twist issues at the equator? Or do you rig it
> to have a forward or front exit at that latitude?... So many nuances
> to this issue!
>
> :)
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Geary
> Schindel<[email protected]> wrote:
> > That's correct,
> >
> > To counteract the spin, some folks have found that if you rig the
> > figure 8 for a left exit from the device in the northern hemisphere,
> > the twist imparted in the rope is neutralized by the Coriolis effect
> > and you won't spin when ascending the rope. :) LOL
> >
> >
> > Geary
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Linda Palit [mailto:[email protected]]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:36 AM
> > To: Geary Schindel; 'Lyndon Tiu'; [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Figure-8 not proper for caving?
> >
> > Figure 8's twist the rope. That is bearable for a 20 or 30 foot
> > rope, but I ask people not to use figure 8's on my rope if the drop
> > is longer. It just creates hassles in coiling and using the rope
> > that seem unnecessary to me. I do have several, and they have uses,
> > but not on long drops and seldom on drops on my rope --
> >
> > Linda
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:23 AM
> > To: Lyndon Tiu; [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Figure-8 not proper for caving?
> >
> > Couple of comments on the Figure 8.
> >
> > They are suitable for caving as long as you are aware of and willing
> > to put up with the limitations, much as any rappel device.
> >
> > Pros
> > They have no moving parts and can't be easily rigged
> > incorrectly.
> > They are relatively cheap in comparison to other devices
> > They are light They are compact They can be easy to
> > drop if you don't know some of the rigging tricks, as you have to
> > disconnect the device from the harness to attach to the rope.
> > Some have ears (rescue 8's), which are bulkier, but all Figure 8's
> > can be locked off. Commonly used in Youth Programs because
> > they are hard to screw up, cheap, and simple to use
> > Relatively durable on CLEAN ropes. They can be used with
> > single or double ropes They will accept a wide range of rope
> > sizes Generally, most folks like to limit their use to drops
> > of less than 200 feet and I don't like to use them on drops over 100
> > feet. Depending upon the drop, you may have to feed rope with
> > longer drops. They are a non-variable friction device is that
> > the friction from the device can't be easily changed with a standard
> > Figure 8. That is why some of the newer design variants such
> > as the Piranha, which do allow you to easilt add or subtract
> > friction, are becoming more popular. They may be slightly
> > easier to learn on in the sense that you can't modify friction which
> > is one less factor you have to teach for the first timer.
> >
> >
> > Cons,
> > Big folks may find them fast,
> > They wear very quickly, as in one rappel, on a dirty rope
> > (read rat tail file). If you use them on dirty ropes, you
> > will have to replace them more often than rappel devices that allow
> > you to change out the friction surfaces, so for cavers, they
> > may not be economical They twist the rope, which can make
> > ascending nauseating from the spin in the rope. It is a
> > misconception that repeated use of a Figure 8 may damage the
> > rope. There are more rappels done with a Figure 8 than any other
> > device and probably all devices combined. There has never been a
> > rope failure caused by a Figure 8. However, barfing on the rope
> > probably isn't good for it. There is a risk of dropping the
> > device during changeovers.
> >
> > Regarding Bill's comment that it may be necessary to obtain more
> > friction by rapping the rope around the hips, this is not generally
> > recommended for a couple of reasons. For example, if the user is
> > right handed, rigged in this fashion, the rope exits the rappel
> > device on the left side of the person, passes behind the back (hips)
> > of the rappeller, then reaches the right brake hand, this can
> > present a couple of problems. If the rappeller let's go of the rope
> > with their right hand, the rope will fall to the back of the
> > rappeller, they will not be able to gain control of the rope and
> > will be unable to arrest or control the rappel. They will probably
> > not be able to recover the rope. Second, the rope will usually find
> > an indication to ride in around the hips. This is usually caused by
> > the webbing so you will now have a moving piece of nylon (the rope)
> > running against a standing piece of nylon (the harness), which may
> > create severe abrasion and possibly failure. If you need more
> > friction, use a different device. There are ways to modify the
> > friction on the device using either a double rap or another
> > carabineer, but they are beyond this discussion.
> >
> > When would I use a Figure 8. For short caving drops, especially a
> > long distance into the cave, for rock climbing, and for
> > canyoneering.
> >
> > Geary Schindel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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Hey, Lyndon.
Yes! It's actually pretty interesting. You can cut pieces out of
climbing and caving ropes (old and retired, if not the owner wouldn't be
too happy) and dissect them.
In caving (well, vertical caving, as opposed to climbing up walls to
reach leads) we use static ropes. These have parallel fibers, all
tightly held by the sheath. These minimize spin and elongation. Falling
is not part of the game and actually you are looking for a rope that
won't make you bounce (too much) when you start to climb out of a pit.
In climbing, ropes are "dynamic," which are designed to stretch to
absorb the energy of a falling climber (falling is part of the game). In
a dynamic rope, after you take out the sheath (which is also looser than
in a static rope) you find braided strands of nylon, which are the ones
that absorb the energy.
Take care,
- Fofo
Lyndon Tiu wrote, on 11/6/09 6:32:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:24:03 -0700 [email protected] wrote:
The problem with the figure 8 descender is that it twists the rope.
Since caving rope is a bunch of parallel fibers encased in a sheath,
I am not that familiar with vertical gear. So I have a stupid question:
Are you saying caving rope is different from other types of rope used in
mountain climbing, etc?
Thanks for the reply Fofo. Much appreciated.
--
Lyndon Tiu
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Hi, Brian.
Actually, you can lock a normal, non-eared figure 8 too. I think I found
the method in a French book, but I'm not positive on this, but it is
something that pretty much every time I do it someone says "Whoa, you
can lock a figure of 8?"
There are several reasons why I would prefer another descender for
vertical caving, but Geary already outlined in a great post the pros and
cons, so... what he said. :)
- Fofo
Brian Riordan wrote, on 11/6/09 6:35:
Why would this be improper specifically for vertical caving? The
figure 8 will twist any rope. The only reason I can think of that any
caver would think it "improper" is because you can't lock it off. But
you can lock off a rescue figure 8... You also lock off Petzl's
"Pirana", which is very similar.
Figure 8:
http://s7ondemand1.scene7.com/is/image/MoosejawMB/10085396x1014941_zm?$product150$
Rescue 8: http://wesspur.com/images/product/300800-500.gif
Pirana: http://wesspur.com/images/product/d05-500.gif
Any thoughts?
-B
On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Fofo<[email protected]> wrote:
Hey, Lyndon.
It sounds like he is talking about the descender, not the knot.
The problem with the figure 8 descender is that it twists the rope. Since
caving rope is a bunch of parallel fibers encased in a sheath, going through
the figure 8 will impart a twist on these and in the end (after repeated use
with a figure of 8) you end up with a rope that kinks by itself.
It is a compact and lightweight descender, convenient for nuisance drops, on
short pieces of rope for which you don't care much.
- Fofo
Lyndon Tiu wrote, on 11/6/09 6:12:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:04:44 -0500 [email protected] wrote:
Everybody else appeared to use a rock-climbers tiny Figure-8. ( I
think most caver's would agree that this
type of Figure-8 is not proper vertical equipment for caving. )
Can someone on this list knowledgeable with vertical caving please explain
to me why so?
Thanks.
--
Lyndon Tiu
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The Texas Cave Conservancy Summer Event will be held July 17, 18, & 19 in
and around the TCC Headquarters in Cedar Park. We have invited NSS members
and the world's cavers to stop by on the way to Kerrville. We will have
caving, camping, tours and a Saturday night party with a Mexican "Day of the
Dead" theme. We have prepared a high quality TCC-NEWS on some of the
activities in the
Austin-Cedar Park area. If you would like to receive a copy e-mail:
[email protected]
Enter Newsletter in the Subject line.
Several people have asked about the production and the distribution of the
newsletter.
Piers Hendrie - Cover Photos
Mike Walsh- Content
John Worsfold - Lay Out
Lyndon Tiu -Distribution
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--- Begin Message ---
The AMCS Activities Newsletter 28, for 2005, had some stuff in the
"Mexico News" section about cave-divers' assisting in the making of
The Cave. (If you don't have that magazine and have read that, shame
on you.) I'm pasting it in below. I've also heard amusing stories from
one of the divers, such as watching the macho hero try to walk across
a stage in full cave-diving gear without falling over. -- Mixon
High Springs resident and filmmaker Wes Skiles knew he had a challenge
before him when he was asked to create sustained fire underwater.
And fellow scuba diver and High Springs resident Jill Heinerth knew
she was in for an interesting time when she was asked to pose as a
white man, a black man and an Asian man.
But she was able to pull off the multicultural transformation, and
Skiles was able to create fire where the laws of nature say it can't
exist as the two local residents helped create Sony Screen Gem's
upcoming movie, The Cave.
"This was much more intricate and involved than what we're used to,"
said Skiles, a world-renowned underwater cave diver and filmmaker.
"We're usually working with the environment and a small group of
people who are experts in their field."
But for Skiles and Heinerth, they were thrown into a whole new world—
known as Hollywood.
"I had originally been promised I'd have the entire cast for three
weeks," said Heinerth, who is believed to be the most experienced
female cave diver in the world. "I hardly got to train them at all."
The plot of the movie revolves around a group of expert divers who
decide to explore a cave in the Carpathian Mountains, in the land of
Count Dracula. But during their exploration, the cave collapses and
then, well, they learn they are "not at the top of the food chain,"
said Ross Ambrose, director of marketing for Karst Productions, which
is Skiles's movie production company.
Although the movie's plot centers around a cave dive in Mexico, almost
all the scenes in the movie come from inside a specially designed,
football field-sized aquarium built specifically for the movie in, of
all places, Romania. [The author has this backwards. See previous
paragraph above, or the following Mexico News item.]
Labor and other costs are far less in Romania than in the United
States, Skiles said.
After the aquarium was built, and before the water was put in, Skiles
and Heinerth got to help design the "caves" through which the actors
and stunt doubles would swim.
In one cave, Skiles had to direct an underwater avalanche, in which
boulders fall through the water, hitting the divers. Skiles used
hundreds of fiberglass boulders, filled with enough sand to give them
weight and a real look while falling underwater.
He even had people on top of the aquarium, dropping in sand and other
material to give the water the look it should have if an underwater
avalanche was occurring.
He also pumped special gas into the water so that when it hit the
surface, a pilot light would ignite the gas and cause a fire on top of
the water.
But creating fire on top of the water was relatively easy, according
to Skiles. Creating sustained fire underwater—now that was difficult,
Skiles said, if not downright impossible. But he was asked to do the
impossible by the movie-makers, who wanted to give the illusion that a
volcano was erupting underwater.
Skiles resorted to special effects to pull off the miracle, using a
combination of red lights, gas, and bubbles to give the illusion of
fire underwater. Skiles laughed out loud when he talked about pulling
off that special effect.
"Maybe I'll use that one back home," he said, referring to the
multiple springs around High Springs.
Skiles laughed again and said that in the aquarium, he did so many
things in the fake caves that he preaches locally not to do in
sinkholes—such as throwing debris down them (the avalanche) or putting
foreign substances in them (such as the gas and other material used to
create the "fire").
"All the things you're not supposed to do, I did," he said, laughing
about the fake caves.
Skiles and Heinerth said they enjoyed working with the actors, who
gave the two High Springs residents a lot of respect.
"They were very good with us," Skiles said.
In fact, many of the problems the actors run into in the movie are
problems that Skiles and Heinerth have faced in real cave dives.
"They knew we were the real thing," Skiles said.
Heinerth said that while she wasn't given much time to train the
actors and actresses, she was impressed with their ability to mimic her
—using diving lingo and acting like, well, divers.
"Their observation skills are amazing," Heinerth said.
The movie-makers continued to ask more of the actors in the underwater
scenes, and Heinerth regularly had to let them know that what they
were asking was dangerous or impossible without much more training.
"I had to constantly draw the line," she said.
She joked that at one point the movie-makers wanted an actor to use a
particular diving mask because his eyes could be better seen. But
Heinerth pointed out that the mask didn't fit the actor's head and was
leaking water.
But that didn't matter to the make-believe world of Hollywood. Style,
not functionality, was important, she said.
"Functionality always lost," she said. "The debate always boiled down
to safety and style."
Because the actors had so little time to prepare, stunt doubles had to
be used regularly, and Heinerth was one of them. She laughed out loud
when she said that she had to play three men—a white man, a black man,
and an Asian man.
There was even a scene where she had to wear a wig to better look like
one of the men during her stunt scenes.
"Ugh!" she said of the wig.
Working on the movie was a great learning experience, Skiles said.
While he has produced several National Geographic-type movies, his
experience with Hollywood was limited.
He said he learned a lot about detailed production and realized how
far he could go on his own with special effects, such as the "fire"
underwater.
And he said he was particularly proud of his team of divers.
"We had an incredibly resourceful team," Skiles said. "They came
together and made it happen." Source: Ronald Dupont, Jr., in High
Springs (Florida) Herald, January 1, 2005.
Hidden Worlds Dive Shop in Quintana Roo, Mexico, recently supported
the filming of a new Hollywood feature film The Cave, which is due to
hit theaters this August.
The film’s executive producers contacted Wes Skiles and Jill Heinerth
to assist them in a Herculean task: to bring the underwater cave world
to the big screen. But in the end, it took far more help than they
alone could offer. Skiles and Heinerth had to get the support of over
fifty of their closest friends to fill out the Underwater Unit in
Mexico. At times, more than eighteen people were underwater, wrangling
cables, setting lights, acting as doubles, and ensuring the safety of
the entire team.
“We knew that we had to go to a place where we had worked intensively
in the past. Few people can handle the logistics and demands of a
Hollywood crew, and Buddy Quattlebaum and his Hidden Worlds Dive Shop
was the only operation that could fill the bill,” said Heinerth.
“We needed to work in a community with lots of local expertise, with
caves that had enough flow to clean up quickly, and in an environment
that was stunning.”
The film traces the journey of a team of rebreather sump-divers
through an adventure in the caves of Romania. During their
exploration, a collapse traps the entire crew, who are left to fend
for themselves while being pursued by a frightening presence.
The bulk of the film was shot in Romania on a series of wet sets that
allowed for spectacular stunts, many of which were coordinated by the
underwater team. Location shooting took place in two cenotes within
Hidden Worlds and in the open water on the island of Cozumel.
Principal actors were trained to use rebreathers in a limited capacity
by Jill Heinerth, but the bulk of underwater action was covered by a
team of stunt doubles trained by Mark Meadows. Brian Kakuk, Matt
Matthes, Jitka Hyniova, Jakub Rehacek, Joel Tower, Jill Heinerth, and
Mark Meadows doubled for the cast of nine actors: Cole Hauser, Morris
Chestnut, Eddie Cibrian, Rick Ravanello, Marcel Iures, Lena Headey,
Piper Perabo, Daniel Dae-Kim, and Kieran Darcy-Smith.
The film is due to be released by Sony Screen Gems on August 19, 2005.
A trailer for the film can be viewed at HYPERLINK "http://www.enterthecave.com
" www.enterthecave.com. Source: Karst Productions.
Jill Heinerth adds: As Technical Advisor for The Cave, I should
prepare myself for years of Internet abuse. It is going to be a really
fun film to watch, but there will be tons that the caving community
will groan and laugh at. Despite all of my objections in many areas,
there will be lots of inappropriate gear and techniques that were
implemented for lots of great reasons, like “We like the looks of this
better.” It’s a good thing I have a thick hide, but I still am
practicing my line: “It’s only fiction.”
---------------------------------------------
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benefactor the world has yet known. - Sir Richard Burton
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If you go back and re-read the original post by David, he was talking
specifically about the mini-figure 8s, sometimes used by rock climbers as belay
devices and emergency rappel devices. All the discussion so far has focused on
standard 8s or rescue 8s (8s with ears). Geary outlined the pos and cons
pretty well. I have used 8s extensively for short drops, and even wore out a
couple as the gritty rope abraded through the anodizing on the 8. One of the
biggest drawbacks of 8s is that they cannot easily be used with rebelays, as
you have to detach them from your harness to put them on and off the rope.
Mini-8s would not be at all suitable as descenders for caving, except in
emergency situations, just like Petzl's Tibloc ascenders are not suitable for
regular caving, except in emergencies.
My 2¢.
-- Crash
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I've had a couple of friends who underwent chemotherapy in the past few month at MD QAnderson and they appreciated being able to Twitter, keeping their friends abreast of their condition.
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:15:34 -0500 [email protected] wrote:
> I tweet, but not too often. I didn't really know what it was until I
> started my new job. I don't really know what to say most of the time and
> why would anyone care what I had for lunch? :-) I use Facebook quite a
> lot.
You can connect your Facebook and Tweeter accounts so that when you tweet, your Facebook status reflects your tweet.
You can also connect Tweeter to LinkedIn, MySpace, cell phone sms, email, blog, etc.
--
Lyndon Tiu
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Not only at the end.. all through the movie. SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE was not typical. Try LAGAAN. A movie about a cricket match in the British Raj. Think like a South Asian OKLAHOMA with song & dance numbers about waiting for the monsoon to break the drought. (Among other things).
Good fillum, by golly ghosh.
[email protected] wrote:
> I wish there was a caving Bollywood
> movie.
How does that work?
At the end of the movie, all the cavers and cave critters come out and
dance in the cave?
--
Lyndon Tiu
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I know there are several books out there by cavers that would make
excellent movies, one of my favorites is Yochib: The River Cave
http://www.amazon.com/Yochib-River-William-C-Steele/dp/093974810X/
This was written by our very own Bill Steele and is a very good read,
I couldn't put it down.
This book can also be found on cavebooks.com, but I couldn't find a
good link to just that book on there.
Anyone else have book suggestions, preferably those written by cavers?
Charles
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--- Begin Message ---
Ok, so flares seem like they are out. What about those propane/butane
lanterns (similar to those ones companies like Coleman produce with
those synthetic socks)? Other than obviously depleting oxygen at a
higher rate, are there any other emission concerns I should have?
-B
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 10:44 PM, David<[email protected]> wrote:
> The bright flares being discussed put out light in all directions like
> a lantern.
> I don't have anything that bright, especially in a lantern.
>
> However, in the automotive section of Walmart is a new portable HID
> light that would fit in a cave pack.
> I haven't paid any attention to HID lights, because they don't seem practical
> for caving. They are spot-lights, they are very expensive, the batteries
> only last less than an hour, and they are heavy. I presume the
> filament is fragile if you
> drop it.
>
> However, it would be handy to have one in the car on an off-road trip.
> In Bustamante Canyon,
> you could shine it up at the entrance of Precipicio at night, but I
> can't think of a reason why
> you would want to do that.
>
> However, the HID technology is advancing and more HID products are on
> the market now.
>
> Here is one for $ 1,800 not including taxes:
>
> http://www.tacticalleds.com/v/vspfiles/photos/POLARION-X1-9.jpg
>
> I presume cave divers prefer HID flashlights to LED's, but that should change
> as
> LED's become brighter, more efficient and less expensive. I don't
> see that happening
> with HIDs.
>
> David Locklear
> caver in Fort Bend County
>
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The Offer:
To he, she, or it that first supplies me with a mailing address gets
my copy.
The Catch:
Continue the offer when you are finished.
Mike in Spring, TX
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Lyndon is the fastest on the reply button!
It will be on the way in about an hour.
> The Offer:
> To he, she, or it that first supplies me with a mailing address gets
> my copy.
>
> The Catch:
> Continue the offer when you are finished.
>
> Mike in Spring, TX
>
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... and as agreed, I will pass it on to the next fellow once I am done ;)
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:50:27 -0500 [email protected] wrote:
>
>
> Lyndon is the fastest on the reply button!
--
Lyndon Tiu
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--- Begin Message ---
>"The Cave" producers hired this company called "Karst Productions" out of
>Florida for their underwater cave shooting. They look and sound like pros
>who know what they are doing. But I betcha some Hollywood exec
>overruled a lot of their recommendations as to how real cavers/divers do
>their thing inside a cave.
You nailed it, Lyndon. Karst Productions is Wes Skiles and Jill Heinerth,
both NSS and CDS members, and the best underwater videographers in the
business, bar none. (You'll see some of their work at the ICS.) And yes,
they were asked to do some really dumb things, from a caver perspective
(like the underwater explosions), but hey, money talks and bullshit walks.
They're running a business, and laugh about "The Cave" just like the rest of
us -- all the way to the bank, in their case.
Alex
Alex Sproul, NSS 8086
SpeleMedia Coordinator, ICS 2009
00-1-540-377-6364 Skype alex.sproul
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