texascavers Digest 25 Feb 2009 01:17:39 -0000 Issue 716
Topics (messages 10250 through 10264):
Re: new caving club
10250 by: Fritz Holt
10252 by: Minton, Mark
10255 by: Geary Schindel
10257 by: Bill Bentley
Re: Caving Club at SFA
10251 by: Fritz Holt
Re: New caving group starting up in East Texas :
10253 by: Lyndon Tiu
Caver Audio Archive
10254 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com
10258 by: George Veni
Re: underground houses
10256 by: Louise Power
10260 by: vivbone.att.net
Brinco Otra Vez--Plz Fwd
10259 by: Gill Ediger
The East<--West<--Texas-->East-->The West
10261 by: Gill Ediger
10263 by: Thomas Sitch
10264 by: wa5pok.peoplepc.com
Drouth
10262 by: Gill Ediger
Administrivia:
To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
<[email protected]>
To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:
<[email protected]>
To post to the list, e-mail:
<[email protected]>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
I can't spell but you know what I meant.
Fritz
________________________________
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 9:40 AM
To: Geary Schindel; [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] new caving club
No-man,
Houston is the ghetto and illegal alien center of the universe. That is,
considering Texas to be the meaningful inverse.
Fritz
________________________________
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:56 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] new caving club
I thought West Texas was everything west of the Pecos and east Texas was
everything east with the exception of Houston which is considered no-mans land.
G
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] new caving club
Pseudokarst of East Texas!
-----Original Message-----
From: Mixon Bill <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 9:09 pm
Subject: [Texascavers] new caving club
"the uncharted caverns of East Texas"? Good luck with that. -- Mixon
----------------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
AMCS: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> or
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
For additional commands, e-mail:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
________________________________
Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio
Toolbar<http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlweusdown00000035>!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geary,
>I thought West Texas was everything west of the Pecos and east Texas was
>everything east with the exception of Houston which is considered no-mans land.
You left out Central Texas, where the center of the caving universe is!
No one I know considers Austin, Dallas or San Antonio to be in East Texas...
Mark Minton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
I agreed, But every time I'm out in the Ft. Stockton area, they label us
folks from San Antonio as east Texans. They can't believe that anyone
or anything could survive in such a wet humid climate (as we suffer our
19th month of drought).
Geary
From: Minton, Mark [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 10:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: new caving club
Geary,
>I thought West Texas was everything west of the Pecos and east Texas
was everything east with the exception of Houston which is considered
no-mans land.
You left out Central Texas, where the center of the caving
universe is! No one I know considers Austin, Dallas or San Antonio to
be in East Texas...
Mark Minton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And we have even less rain out in Midland...
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Geary Schindel
To: Minton, Mark ; [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 11:10 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: new caving club
Mark,
I agreed, But every time I'm out in the Ft. Stockton area, they label us
folks from San Antonio as east Texans. They can't believe that anyone or
anything could survive in such a wet humid climate (as we suffer our 19th month
of drought).
Geary
From: Minton, Mark [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 10:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: new caving club
Geary,
>I thought West Texas was everything west of the Pecos and east Texas was
everything east with the exception of Houston which is considered no-mans land.
You left out Central Texas, where the center of the caving universe is!
No one I know considers Austin, Dallas or San Antonio to be in East Texas...
Mark Minton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sleeping on the couch.
-----Original Message-----
From: R D Milhollin [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:31 PM
To: [email protected]; Mike Gross
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Caving Club at SFA
Wasn't David Locklear exploring for caves in East Texas a while back? Where is
Locklear anyway?
--- On Mon, 2/23/09, Mike Gross <[email protected]> wrote:
> From: Mike Gross <[email protected]>
> Subject: [Texascavers] Caving Club at SFA
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 11:16 PM
> Hey guys -- SFA is my alma mater. Over the 17 years from
> 1971 to 1988, migrating from Forestry to Geology to Spanish
> to English, I managed to get myself a degree there, along
> with lots of other adventures. I'll be trying to get in
> touch with them.
>
> There is nice little cave in East Texas,over near Center in
> Shelby County.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Gross
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> [email protected]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 06:49:15 -0600 [email protected] wrote:
> Arkansas is as
> close as Deep and Punkin for us here, so there are possibilities for this
> group to go caving in either direction.
That makes your location the center of the caving universe.
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is from British caving filmmaker Sid Perou:
The British Cave Library Audio Archive is up and
running.!http://caving-library.org.uk/audio/
There is some great listening - largely thanks to a load of tapes that we
obtained from Geoff Yeadon that were done as research for a book which never
happened.
We need more- There are so many good stories out there! But we also need help
to collect material together, either existing material or by interviewing some
of the great characters out there. We lose a few of cavings great people every
year, don't let there stories go with them!
Get in touch if you have anything to offer. [email protected]
Cheers,
Sid
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Karst Information Portal includes the Oral History Project (go to
www.karstportal.org and look under the Resources tab). Six oral histories are
posted so far. As Sid correctly points out, there are lots more that should be
done and done soon. If you are interested in making some possible and have both
technical skills with the necessary equipment plus a broad enough caving
background to be a good interviewer (or know someone who can fill in if you
don't have what is needed), contact the people at the Portal to see how you can
help.
Thanks,
George
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 10:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Caver Audio Archive
This is from British caving filmmaker Sid Perou:
The British Cave Library Audio Archive is up and
running.!http://caving-library.org.uk/audio/
There is some great listening - largely thanks to a load of tapes that we
obtained from Geoff Yeadon that were done as research for a book which never
happened.
We need more- There are so many good stories out there! But we also need help
to collect material together, either existing material or by interviewing some
of the great characters out there. We lose a few of cavings great people every
year, don't let there stories go with them!
Get in touch if you have anything to offer. [email protected]
Cheers,
Sid
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a fascinating site. Thanks for passing the info on. I must say, I'm not
surprised at the background radiation around the Trinity site, but the spikes
around NBC are a real revelation. Thanks again for the info.
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 18:02:16 -0600
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] underground houses
This discussion has caused me to remember an interesting graph I once saw where
someone carried a geiger counter around TX and NM.
I found it again, here: http://www.randomuseless.info/vacation/vacation.html.
The graph itself is here:
http://www.randomuseless.info/vacation/route/route.html.
Look at the peaks around Natural Bridge Caverns and the smaller one at Carlsbad
Caverns and maybe an even smaller one at Caverns of Sonora. The author claims
this might be due to Radon.
William
----- Original Message -----
From: Louise Power
To: Philip L Moss ; Texas Cavers
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] underground houses
When I worked at Carlsbad Caverns NP, we were constantly monitored for our
radon exposure. Each crew worked in a progressively deeper part of the caverns,
then had to work on the surface for a period of time. Also our cave tech, Kay
Rohde, came through several times a day with her little air tester which would
suck in the air at different points in the cave and then she'd put her findings
into her results program to find out where radon was the highest (back of the
Big Room during the summer visitor peak, in case you were wondering). I don't
know if they still do that or not.
Louise
To: [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:26:27 -0600
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] underground houses
In addition to Mixon's criticisms, there is always the issue of alpha
radiation. All earth material tends to have some alpha radiation emitters
(often more simply and misleadingly called radon). The more surfaces one has
that are earth material (dirt, limestone, concrete), the more fresh air
ventilation one needs to have healthy air.
Is caving dangerous because of alpha radiation? In very few caves is it,
because none of us spends that much time in caves. There are some western
caves with some incredibly high alpha counts.
Is mining dangerous because of the 40-hour work week exposure. No, because
mines are ventilated with fresh air and the air quality is monitored.
Is living underground without a lot of fresh air ventilation or even cooling
your home or business with cave air a health hazard? Yes.
Wait a minute, alpha radiation can't even penetrate your skin, so this is all
BS. No, because the vector is from breathing in particles that are alpha
emitters. Breathing in alpha emitters tends to produce lung cancer. High
humidity promotes mold growth and overexposure to mold can cause other lung
problems (personal experience and a visit to a pulmonologist).
If such a home had any appliances, there would be waste heat that would help
(enough for the summertime??) decrease the relative humidity.
Natural thermal attenuation and moderation are wonderful things and this email
should not be construed to say that they are not worth pursuing. However as
with most things in life, the devil is in the details.
Philip L. Moss
[email protected]
____________________________________________________________
Compete with the big boys. Click here to find products to benefit your business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks to me like that spike was "in" natural Bridge Caverns rather than
"around" it. He mentions that the gray background elevation data drops out when
he went underground because of the GPS not working then. Same thing for
Carlsbad & Sonora. Though Sonora looks relatively radiation free. I'm amazed
how high Natural Bridge is.
-------------- Original message from Louise Power <[email protected]>:
--------------
This discussion has caused me to remember an interesting graph I once saw where
someone carried a geiger counter around TX and NM.
I found it again, here: http://www.randomuseless.info/vacation/vacation.html.
The graph itself is here:
http://www.randomuseless.info/vacation/route/route.html.
Look at the peaks around Natural Bridge Caverns and the smaller one at Carlsbad
Caverns and maybe an even smaller one at Caverns of Sonora. The author claims
this might be due to Radon.
William
----- Original Message -----
From: Louise Power
To: Philip L Moss ; Texas Cavers
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] underground houses
When I worked at Carlsbad Caverns NP, we were constantly monitored for our
radon exposure. Each crew worked in a progressively deeper part of the caverns,
then had to work on the surface for a period of time. Also our cave tech, Kay
Rohde, came through several times a day with her little air tester which would
suck in the air at different points in the cave and then she'd put her findings
into her results program to find out where radon was the highest (back of the
Big Room during the summer visitor peak, in case you were wondering). I don't
know if they still do that or not.
Louise
To: [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:26:27 -0600
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] underground houses
In addition to Mixon's criticisms, there is always the issue of alpha
radiation. All earth material tends to have some alpha radiation emitters
(often more simply and misleadingly called radon). The more surfaces one has
that are earth material (dirt, limestone, concrete), the more fresh air
ventilation one needs to have healthy air.
Is caving dangerous because of alpha radiation? In very few caves is it,
because none of us spends that much time in caves. There are some western
caves with some incredibly high alpha counts.
Is mining dangerous because of the 40-hour work week exposure. No, because
mines are ventilated with fresh air and the air quality is monitored.
Is living underground without a lot of fresh air ventilation or even cooling
your home or business with cave air a health hazard? Yes.
Wait a minute, alpha radiation can't even penetrate your skin, so this is all
BS. No, because the vector is from breathing in particles that are alpha
emitters. Breathing in alpha emitters tends to produce lung cancer. High
humidity promotes mold growth and overexposure to mold can cause other lung
problems (personal experience and a visit to a pulmonologist).
If such a home had any appliances, there would be waste heat that would help
(enough for the summertime??) decrease the relative humidity.
Natural thermal attenuation and moderation are wonderful things and this email
should not be construed to say that they are not worth pursuing. However as
with most things in life, the devil is in the details.
Philip L. Moss
[email protected]
____________________________________________________________
Compete with the big boys. Click here to find products to benefit your business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please pass this request on to any club or regional caver forum you
might be on.
I've got to go back down to Conrado Castillo, Tamaulipas, Mexico
within the next week and probably won't have a chance to return
before the upcoming Spring Break trip leaving the 13th. I need a
rider in the worst sort of way. Consider that the fuel and most of
your food will be paid for--you just gotta ride. I have to go down
anyway and badly need someone to ride shotgun. You don't even need to
be a caver.
Will leave from Austin ASAP and return about the 23rd March. You
could bus back earlier if necessary--actually, anytime after we get
there. Questions? Email, or call:
410-303-1177
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:37 AM 2/24/2009, Minton, Mark wrote:
>I thought West Texas was everything west of the Pecos and east
Texas >was everything east with the exception of Houston which is
considered >no-mans land.
You left out Central Texas, where the center of the caving
universe is!
As a trained, professional geographer (which qualifies me, along with
6-bits worth of money, to ride on most any city bus) I have an
opinion or two on that. But first:
Terms like East Texas, West Texas, Southwest Texas, and North Central
Texas define some nebulous and often dynamic regions oriented to
generalized compass directions. These terms are often interspersed by
both geographers and non-geographers in trying to define geographic
regions with somewhat less nebulous terms such as High Plains and
Coastal Bend. You can see that the two sets of terms are not
comparable. We should use either directional terms (which with a
state shaped like Texas is a bit of a stretch) or we should use
topographical terms (which are more descriptive of what's really
there). Or we could just color in the voting precincts and refer to
them as red or blue or yellow regions of the State.
Based on humidity, vegetation, and other factors, it can be
considered that the eastward limits of West Texas can sometimes reach
as far as Kerrville--but not always. It swings back and forth a good
bit along with the related meteorlogical phenomenon known as a 'dry
line' and shares, from time-to-time, parts of what is called The Hill
Country with Central Texas. (Recall that The Hill Country and West
Texas are not in parallel competition with each other, so can share
territory.) To the west it extends nearly to Tucson, although some of
our caver associates (non-geographers) claim it stops at Midland--the
rest to the west being a nominal part of either Mexico or New
Mexico--I can't remember which. The question always arises in my mind
as to how far north West Texas extends. Does it include the Pan Handle?
Or is that North Texas? It is generally conceded, I think, that
Dallas and Forth Wort, and those menial towns up near the Red River
represent North Texas while the Pan Handle, which is farther north,
does not. 'Splain that if you can. If you pointed your compass in the
direction of the Pan Handle it would render north west, yet I don't
think that term is commonly applied to it. But, maybe?
Neither does North Texas extend eastward into East Texas which is at
the same latitude and, again, I think, considered to be that great
humid area of black gumbo mud and tall mixed forest that extends west
pretty much as a continuation of Louisiana about as far west as the
trees do. The fact that The Great Plains also begin at that spot is
not a factor of compass direction but vegetation (and perhaps soil
type) and otherwise unrelated. Now I guess that there's a little area
up there north of the gumbo but still in the trees that's called
Northeast Texas by some on account of not wanting to leave out any of
the cardinal directions and winding up with a hole in the map. Being
close to Arkansas there's a lot of confusion rampant thereabouts. And
East Texas extends south a bit lower than Houston, encroaching well
into the lower latitudes, but not the terrain, of Central Texas
South Texas is pretty much everything south of an east-west line
running through some arbitrary part of San Antonio--say the Balcones
Escarpment. North of that is Central Texas and, coincidentally, The
Hill Country (all 3 always capitalized). Now, where South Texas and
West Texas delineate themselves could be hard to put ones foot or
finger on--even were one to have large hands and feet. It's out there
somewhere in what we might oughta rightly call Southwest Texas, but
can't really define that either without a few stout drinks. (One
thing is certain--the college formerly called Southwest Texas
State(SWTSTC) was nowhere near that part of the State.)
That leaves only the Coastal Plain, nominally running from
Brownsville to Port O'Connor (as they say in the hurricane weather
warnings), to be given a direction--obviously Southeast Texas, as
that direction is otherwise unasigned and probably more correctly
occupied by the Gulf of Mexico which can't be renamed. But it
overlaps both South Texas and East Texas at its extremes, both of
which exhibit some (sometimes significant, sometimes not) climatic
differences.
Now, there you have it; if you have questions please keep them to yourself.
...and excuse my broken spell checker, por favor.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't forget the added complexity that truly old maps show the original North
Texas running up to into a region referred to by it Yankee invaders as "the
State of Colorado".
~~T
--- On Tue, 2/24/09, Gill Ediger <[email protected]> wrote:
Or is that North Texas? It is generally conceded, I think, that Dallas and
Forth Wort, and those menial towns up near the Red River represent North Texas
while the Pan Handle, which is farther north, does not.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ahhhhh shoot, I'll make it all real simple. If it ain't in Houston, then
its a suburb of Houston ... ; ) ... anybody got another Shinner?
Later, ~F~
> At 10:37 AM 2/24/2009, Minton, Mark wrote:
> > >I thought West Texas was everything west of the Pecos and east
> > Texas >was everything east with the exception of Houston which is
> > considered >no-mans land.
> > You left out Central Texas, where the center of the caving
> > universe is!
>
> As a trained, professional geographer (which qualifies me, along with
> 6-bits worth of money, to ride on most any city bus) I have an opinion
> or two on that. But first:
>
> Terms like East Texas, West Texas, Southwest Texas, and North Central
> Texas define some nebulous and often dynamic regions oriented to
> generalized compass directions. These terms are often interspersed by
> both geographers and non-geographers in trying to define geographic
> regions with somewhat less nebulous terms such as High Plains and
> Coastal Bend. You can see that the two sets of terms are not
> comparable. We should use either directional terms (which with a state
> shaped like Texas is a bit of a stretch) or we should use
> topographical terms (which are more descriptive of what's really
> there). Or we could just color in the voting precincts and refer to
> them as red or blue or yellow regions of the State.
>
> Based on humidity, vegetation, and other factors, it can be
> considered that the eastward limits of West Texas can sometimes reach
> as far as Kerrville--but not always. It swings back and forth a good
> bit along with the related meteorlogical phenomenon known as a 'dry
> line' and shares, from time-to-time, parts of what is called The Hill
> Country with Central Texas. (Recall that The Hill Country and West
> Texas are not in parallel competition with each other, so can share
> territory.) To the west it extends nearly to Tucson, although some of
> our caver associates (non-geographers) claim it stops at Midland--the
> rest to the west being a nominal part of either Mexico or New
> Mexico--I can't remember which. The question always arises in my mind
> as to how far north West Texas extends. Does it include the Pan
> Handle?
>
> Or is that North Texas? It is generally conceded, I think, that
> Dallas and Forth Wort, and those menial towns up near the Red River
> represent North Texas while the Pan Handle, which is farther north,
> does not. 'Splain that if you can. If you pointed your compass in the
> direction of the Pan Handle it would render north west, yet I don't
> think that term is commonly applied to it. But, maybe?
>
> Neither does North Texas extend eastward into East Texas which is at
> the same latitude and, again, I think, considered to be that great
> humid area of black gumbo mud and tall mixed forest that extends west
> pretty much as a continuation of Louisiana about as far west as the
> trees do. The fact that The Great Plains also begin at that spot is
> not a factor of compass direction but vegetation (and perhaps soil
> type) and otherwise unrelated. Now I guess that there's a little area
> up there north of the gumbo but still in the trees that's called
> Northeast Texas by some on account of not wanting to leave out any of
> the cardinal directions and winding up with a hole in the map. Being
> close to Arkansas there's a lot of confusion rampant thereabouts. And
> East Texas extends south a bit lower than Houston, encroaching well
> into the lower latitudes, but not the terrain, of Central Texas
>
> South Texas is pretty much everything south of an east-west line
> running through some arbitrary part of San Antonio--say the Balcones
> Escarpment. North of that is Central Texas and, coincidentally, The
> Hill Country (all 3 always capitalized). Now, where South Texas and
> West Texas delineate themselves could be hard to put ones foot or
> finger on--even were one to have large hands and feet. It's out there
> somewhere in what we might oughta rightly call Southwest Texas, but
> can't really define that either without a few stout drinks. (One thing
> is certain--the college formerly called Southwest Texas State(SWTSTC)
> was nowhere near that part of the State.)
>
> That leaves only the Coastal Plain, nominally running from
> Brownsville to Port O'Connor (as they say in the hurricane weather
> warnings), to be given a direction--obviously Southeast Texas, as that
> direction is otherwise unasigned and probably more correctly occupied
> by the Gulf of Mexico which can't be renamed. But it overlaps both
> South Texas and East Texas at its extremes, both of which exhibit some
> (sometimes significant, sometimes not) climatic differences.
>
> Now, there you have it; if you have questions please keep them to
> yourself. ...and excuse my broken spell checker, por favor. --Ediger
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [email protected] For additional commands,
> e-mail: [email protected]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:27 PM 2/24/2009, Bill Bentley wrote:
And we have even less rain out in Midland...
A drouth is a relative thing in a place where it never rains anyway.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
