texascavers Digest 25 Mar 2009 19:54:26 -0000 Issue 728 Topics (messages 10373 through 10393):
Dada means Death!
10373 by: BMorgan994.aol.com
Impromptu SR cavers reunion in Terlingua
10374 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
Re: Dada means Death! A Tale of Two Laredos
10375 by: Jon
Richard M. Smith has heart attack.
10376 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
Richard Smith
10377 by: Sam Young
10393 by: Sam Young
Travel Advisory for Mexico 2
10378 by: Gill Ediger
Traval Advisory for Mexico 3
10379 by: Gill Ediger
10381 by: shrieck.cableone.net
not just about caves
10380 by: Gill Ediger
10382 by: Charles Goldsmith
not just about caves 2
10383 by: Gill Ediger
Mexico 3
10384 by: Gill Ediger
10385 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
When flags are flying...
10386 by: Thomas Sitch
10387 by: Nico Escamilla
Ibberson has died
10388 by: Gill Ediger
10389 by: Geary Schindel
10391 by: Gary Moss
10392 by: Keith Goggin
Those Gymnastic Bats, Landing Upside Down
10390 by: Heather Tucek
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--- Begin Message ---Since when does the criminal stupidity of the War on Drugs not affect cavers, especially Texas cavers? I didn’t start this thread, and perhaps I shouldn’ t have commented, but this is a hot button issue that enrages me. As to stupidity, immaturity, Russian Roulette and being a bad ass 5 out of 6 times, I just went caving yesterday and dropped a virgin though dinky pit, burned a big one, swilled some beer before driving home, and will turn 61 in a few days. Am I just extra lucky? Or have some of you just gotten old and given up? Maybe you should take up golf instead? As to being off topic see the first paragraph above. I have never visited the OT list, nor do I intend to. Time is too precious! Speaking of which, if we need something to complain about how about the fact that every single person who wrote in to complain about my posting copied my original text plus whatever comment someone else made so that it appeared over and over and over again. How dumb is that? Too bad I don’t get paid royalties! And lastly, Fofito, thanks for your kind words. I completely agree that this is “..a virtual bonfire where we are all gathered and talking of different things that are of interest to cavers, not just about caves.” Sleaze
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--- Begin Message ---On 3/21/09 in Terlingua there was a reunion of opportunity of SR cavers from the 70s. Digitized at the moment were Chuck Pickett, Ring Huggins, Fred Meyer, Dwight Deal, Bill Bourbon, Dick Cochran, and Bob Oakley. Those wishing an image of opportunity should request off-line. DirtDoc
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--- Begin Message ---Just interesting reading, for what it's worth. A Tale of Two Laredos Friday 20 March 2009 by: Todd Bensman | Visit article original @ GlobalPost Mexican police raid the house of a suspected drug trafficker. (Photo: Reuters) Nuevo Laredo, Mexico - All is quiet now on Coahuila Street. But traces of the violence that destroyed the lives of two American brothers with businesses here linger. A blackened structure is all that's left of Alan Gamboa's once-profitable radio communications business, after it was drenched in diesel and burned to the ground the night of Dec. 5. His brother, Ricardo Gamboa, is still missing - and feared dead - after being kidnapped by cartel gangsters on Coahuila Street the previous morning. Violence and kidnappings have become almost commonplace in Mexico, as the country's civil drug war rages. Often, the murder and kidnap victims are American residents of border cities like Laredo, who are involved in the drug trade. But the violence that upended the Gamboa brothers' lives is different. By all accounts, they were not drug dealers. Their only transgression, it seems, was to rent a house to the U.S. State Department and Drug Enforcement Administration, which set up an anti-cartel intelligence operation with Mexican federal police in the rented space. The brothers' tragic story offers a rare glimpse into a part of Mexico's drug war that gets little notice. The narrative of the conflict as a fight to the death between drug cartels and the Mexican government often excludes another player: the U.S. government. And as the Gamboa tale demonstrates, the American government's actions in Mexico can also lead to casualties. Alan Gamboa blames all that has transpired - and what might yet - on his government. He believes the U.S. thoughtlessly placed the brothers in the cartel's cross-hairs after they had spent years trying to walk a neutral line in violent times. "It's not fair! It's not fair! It's not fair!" Gamboa lamented. "They (the DEA) put us into a very deep problem, very deep. They (the cartel) think I'm an informant, but I want them to understand that I don't do that. If I knew that house was for an intelligence organization, I would never have rented it out. I never wanted any problems." For now, Gamboa feels he has no choice but to lay low with his wife and three children (ages 9 to 16) across the river in Laredo, Texas. Both brothers lived with their families on the U.S. side while running communications businesses on Coahuila Street across the river in Mexico. "The cartel wants me dead," Gamboa said. In an interview in their Laredo home, Gamboa's wife, Elsa, said, "What they'll do is let you settle into your ways, and that's when they'll hit." Dangerous Tenants The Gamboa family's travails began early last year when several Americans driving armored vehicles bearing blue diplomatic consulate plates showed up for a tour of Alan Gamboa's empty house with several Mexican men, Gamboa said. A number of witnesses in Nuevo Laredo confirmed his story. Gamboa said he was led to believe the men were merely low-ranking consulate workers in need of a place to live. Ricardo Gamboa had no involvement in the transaction at all - in fact, the brothers had been estranged for years over past business disputes. The realtor who handled the deal (who declined to be indentified for security reasons) told GlobalPost he sent the contract by courier to the American consulate, where it was signed and returned with eight months advance rent. Several Mexican men then moved in to the house, directly across from Alan Gamboa's business. American officials acknowledge the house was used as a "forward operating base" from which their Mexican counterparts were hunting cartel members, with DEA money, intelligence and other support. The Nuevo Laredo operation was emblematic of countrywide U.S. law enforcement efforts to help Mexican President Felipe Calderon's government in the war against that nation's heavily armed drug trafficking organizations. Nuevo Laredo is one of the border's busiest trading corridors, making it one of the most fought-over trafficking routes. But as the Gamboa brothers would soon learn, the U.S. and Mexican governments aren't the only ones with intelligence operations. The trafficking organization that currently controls Nuevo Laredo, called the Gulf Cartel, has a sophisticated counter-intelligence network of its own. A State Department official based in Mexico and a senior U.S. law enforcement official, who requested anonymity for personal security, confirmed that the U.S. government paid to rent the house for a Mexican intelligence operation. But they sought to deflect blame for the Gamboa family's troubles, saying that the motives for moves against the brothers are unclear. "It's terrible when even one person is killed or kidnapped," the state department official said. "But we're talking thousands murdered. Understand that if, working with our Mexican counterparts, we don't get smarter and stronger, it could get worse rather than better - that there's really no choice" but to continue fighting the traffickers. Shattered Peace On Oct. 1, 2008, the violence began. Former Mexican army special forces officers, who now work as cartel enforcers (known as Zetas), somehow captured one of the Mexican undercover agents living in the Gamboa house, American officials confirmed. Thirty gunmen - clad in mismatched camouflage uniforms - took part in a dramatic daylight raid on the house, according to eyewitnesses. The gunmen blocked off both ends of Coahuila Street while an SUV was used to batter down a garage door. The gunmen smashed into the courtyard and house, breaking surveillance cameras and carting off desktop computers, as well as laptops and boxes of documents. The abducted agent, who was forced to attend the raid, was murdered later that day. A ranking American law enforcement official with direct knowledge of the operation, who requested anonymity for personal security, said it was difficult to determine how damaging the breach was. "We do not believe that any information about the DEA investigation was on those computers or in the materials," the law enforcement official said. "We do not believe that anything was compromised that would enhance the risk beyond what we already have. However, we can't say what the federal police had put on that computer or what. We just don't know." Requests to the Mexican attorney general's office for comment about the seized computers and documents went unanswered. For two months after the raid, there was relative calm. Then, the cartel struck the Gamboa brothers without warning, apparently in the belief that they were collaborators. The morning of Dec. 4 was the last time anyone saw Ricardo Gamboa - he was climbing into a gold SUV in front of his office. Alan Gamboa said he was lucky to have been in Texas the next day when gunmen ransacked his business, stealing radio equipment, records and computers before dousing the place with diesel and torching it. His 16 employees were thrown out of work, and he lost $400,000 in equipment. He is out of business in Nuevo Laredo and tries to make ends meet running a cell phone franchise in Laredo. Given that the Gamboa brothers' estrangement from one another was widely known, both families are wondering why Ricardo was taken when it was Alan who rented the house. For Veronica, Ricardo Gamboa's wife, days now revolve around phone conversations with an FBI agent. FBI officials would not discuss the case in detail other than to say agents are working it as an active kidnapping case. The family also uses its own contacts in Nuevo Laredo. They haven't heard much, except for a rumor from FBI and family sources that Ricardo had been killed. The U.S. government, meanwhile, may not have heard the last of the episode. The family has been pressing Texas congressmen for an investigation into whether the State Department erred, and whether it should change the way it conducts clandestine operations in Mexico. The family has hired a Houston lawyer. As for word from the cartel that kidnapped Ricardo, only one demand has reached the family. Through various street sources and snitch networks, the FBI picked up this: Alan Gamboa must turn himself in to the Zetas or Ricardo (who has a wife and two young daughters) will die. Alan has refused to return to Nuevo Laredo. --- On Mon, 3/23/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [Texascavers] Dada means Death! To: [email protected] List-Post: [email protected] Date: Monday, March 23, 2009, 12:42 PM Since when does the criminal stupidity of the War on Drugs not affect cavers, especially Texas cavers? I didn’t start this thread, and perhaps I shouldn’t have commented, but this is a hot button issue that enrages me. As to stupidity, immaturity, Russian Roulette and being a bad ass 5 out of 6 times, I just went caving yesterday and dropped a virgin though dinky pit, burned a big one, swilled some beer before driving home, and will turn 61 in a few days. Am I just extra lucky? Or have some of you just gotten old and given up? Maybe you should take up golf instead? As to being off topic see the first paragraph above. I have never visited the OT list, nor do I intend to. Time is too precious! Speaking of which, if we need something to complain about how about the fact that every single person who wrote in to complain about my posting copied my original text plus whatever comment someone else made so that it appeared over and over and over again. How dumb is that? Too bad I don’t get paid royalties! And lastly, Fofito, thanks for your kind words. I completely agree that this is “..a virtual bonfire where we are all gathered and talking of different things that are of interest to cavers, not just about caves.” Sleaze
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--- Begin Message ---He's an old time caver from Austin.. he's in Seton as of March 22.. That's all I know now.T
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--- Begin Message ---Richard Smith, who is known to some of you as one of the old timer UT grotto people has suffered a heart attack - two actually. We have had a difficult time getting information but this morning we got through to his sister who spoke to us from his bedside. He is in the ICU at Seton Hospital in Austin. He is under hypothermia treatment, an induced coma state. His sister has our phone number and she will keep us informed. Sam and Diane Young
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--- Begin Message ---I am happy to report that the news on Richard Smith is good. Richard's sister called about noon today and said that he is awake and alert. He is weak but may be headed for a complete recovery. The heart attack was ventricular fibrillation (electrical, not plumbing) and he will most likely get a pacemaker. No visitors yet as he remains in ICU at Seton Hospital. ....... Sam
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--- Begin Message ---At 11:22 AM 3/16/2009, Geary Schindel wrote:If you'll be traveling in Mexico, it might be a good idea to take some of the contact information located at the bottom of the advisory with you.I didn't read it yet but I just got back from 3 weeks in Mexico yesterday. Went in by myself through Laredo in about 10 minutes, maybe 12. Got the green light both times. Another 10 or 15 got me out of town without being shot by drug lords. Neither went through nor saw any checkpoints all the way to Victoria. Did not get stopped by cops in Monterrey. Came back via Monterrey, Saltillo, and Piedras Negras (requiring many hours in the state of Coahuila, once again all alone). Neither went through nor saw any checkpoints that whole distance. Was stopped by local police 2wice in Saltillo, after dark, for bribes but talked (with a good bit of help from Monica) my way out of both of them. By far the biggest change I've noticed in Mexico in a long while is that since all the cops have acquired radar they are very intent on enforcing speed limits--especially on main highways through small towns. If the sign says 40 km/h, you need to be damned near 40 going through there, not 70 mph like everyone used to do.Now, let me have a look at those advisories.--Ediger
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--- Begin Message ---At 02:17 PM 3/16/2009, Preston Forsythe wrote:Yap, out of control according to all of the news I see and read in the papers.I'd say avoid giving credibility to any information you receive through the popular media. They create misinformation both intentionally and unintentionally--but it's still misinformation. Fear-mongering sells news and incites emotions.--Ediger
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I agree with your statement, Gill. But, I do have to say that my uncle has lived in Harlingen for the last 30 years and he is now talking of moving to San Antonio because of all the trouble down there. They have had some drug war shootings down there as well. He is worried and he never worries.
Sheryl
Gill said:
I'd say avoid giving credibility to any information you receive
through the popular media. They create misinformation both
intentionally and unintentionally--but it's still misinformation.
Fear-mongering sells news and incites emotions.
--Ediger
Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net
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--- Begin Message ---At 12:42 PM 3/23/2009, [email protected] wrote:I completely agree that this is a virtual bonfire where we are all gathered and talking of different things that are of interest to cavers, not just about caves.I completely agree that this is a virtual bonfire where we are all gathered and talking of different things that are of interest to cavers, not just about caves.--Ediger
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--- Begin Message ---Gill, the only thing is, everytime the list server gets too far off topic for too long, we see people leaving, others getting upset. Things have been quiet around here and the list has been slowly growing. There is a reason we setup the OT list, for the people who like to spam things to the main list that are not appropriate. We have no rules about what is really OT, etc, you can see that at http://texascavers.com/rules.html, however, we do let the community set the unofficial rules, and those have been no excessive OT posts. If you want a virtual campfire, go use the OT list IMHO. Otherwise, if too many OT posts show up here, my inbox gets an influx of whining :) If people would learn to use their DELETE key, it wouldn't be an issue. Anytime I see something posted that I don't like, I use mine, works great! Charles, the bored list administrator (and wants to stay that way) On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Gill Ediger <[email protected]>wrote: > At 12:42 PM 3/23/2009, [email protected] wrote: > >> I completely agree that this is a virtual bonfire where we are all >> gathered and talking of different things that are of interest to cavers, not >> just about caves. >> > > I completely agree that this is a virtual bonfire where we are all gathered > and talking of different things that are of interest to cavers, not just > about caves. > > --Ediger > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > >
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--- Begin Message ---At 12:57 PM 3/24/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote:Gill, the only thing is, everytime the list server gets too far off topic for too long, we see people leaving, others getting upset.Well, getting upset is its own punishment--so is going off-list.Things have been quiet around here and the list has been slowly growing.That's good, of course. That's why we have it in the first place.There is a reason we setup the OT list, for the people who like to spam things to the main list that are not appropriate.Yes, I subscribe to that and it seems that for the most part everybody who subscribes to both can tell which is for caving stuff and which is for GP info.If you want a virtual campfire, go use the OT list IMHO. Otherwise, if too many OT posts show up here, my inbox gets an influx of whining :)In this case, the virtual campfire interchange never really deviated from "discussions of interest to cavers". That people were responding to it is proof of that. It was informational. That a few cavers have no interest in or are tiring of a particular topic doesn't mean that others aren't still getting some enjoyment out of the discussion. It is--as the forum was originally set up--"of interest to cavers". At some point the discussion may degenerate to the point of needing to be moved to OT, but--although getting close--it hadn't quite played itself out of the "interest to cavers" rhelm yet. Drugs and Mexico and travel advisories and media BS are of definite interest to those of us who have occasion to go places where there may be trouble. The others need to learn to use their DELETE key, as you say below.If people would learn to use their DELETE key, it wouldn't be an issue. Anytime I see something posted that I don't like, I use mine, works great!More information; fewer complaints,--Ediger
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--- Begin Message ---At 01:24 PM 3/24/2009, [email protected] wrote:I agree with your statement, Gill. But, I do have to say that my uncle has lived in Harlingen for the last 30 years and he is now talking of moving to San Antonio because of all the trouble down there. They have had some drug war shootings down there as well. He is worried and he never worries.I can't discount the present situation down there--as opposed to the historical one--but the RGV (Rio Grande Valley) has always been home to a paranoid segment of displaced Texas and US society that works itself up into overblown and unusual frenzies over any little bit of alarmist news out of Mexico. It's sort of like they live with one suitcase always packed and ready to make an emergency exit should a latter day Pancho Villa decide to come riding across the river in whatever 21st Century form he might take--sex, drugs, or rock & roll or money, guns, & lawyers. Given any little bit of excitement or revolt anywhere in Mexico--but particularly near the border--the whole of the RGV starts buzzing like a nest of disturbed bees and bouncing around like the ball in a pin ball machine--lights flashing and bells and whistles going off. A few days later it's all over and another crisis has taken its place. I put about as little value in a first person report from the RGV as I do from a 2nd-or 3rd-hand one from Fox News.--Ediger
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--- Begin Message ---Hell, there are folks who are afraid of living in parts of dirty S.A. for similar razones..
Anyone else read ASK A MEXICAN? He does youtube, ya ese!..At 01:24 PM 3/24/2009, [email protected] wrote:
>I agree with your statement, Gill. But, I do have to say that my
>uncle has lived in Harlingen for the last 30 years and he is now
>talking of moving to San Antonio because of all the trouble down
>there. They have had some drug war shootings down there as
>well. He is worried and he never worries.
I can't discount the present situation down there--as opposed to the
historical one--but the RGV (Rio Grande Valley) has always been home
to a paranoid segment of displaced Texas and US society that works
itself up into overblown and unusual frenzies over any little bit of
alarmist news out of Mexico. It's sort of like they live with one
suitcase always packed and ready to make an emergency exit should a
latter day Pancho Villa decide to come riding across the river in
whatever 21st Century form he might take--sex, drugs, or rock & roll
or money, guns, & lawyers. Given any little bit of excitement or
revolt anywhere in Mexico--but particularly near the border--the
whole of the RGV starts buzzing like a nest of disturbed bees and
bouncing around like the ball in a pin ball machine--lights flashing
and bells and whistles going off. A few days later it's all over and
another crisis has taken its place. I put about as little value in a
first person report from the RGV as I do from a 2nd-or 3rd-hand one
from Fox News.
--Ediger
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--- Begin Message ---Interesting, I’m seeing and hearing two different things. When it comes to the narco-traffickers and the violence I hear some folks saying something to the effect of “crime happens to other people,” “I went to Mexico and nothing bad happened, therefore there are no problems,” etc. I consistently hear from my Mexican friends such as Nico and Maria (and Nico can correct me if I’ve got it wrong) that you have to respect and stay the hell out of the way of the narco-traffickers. My grandfather likes the nautical term, “when there are flags flying, pay attention to the wind.” There is clear and obvious danger. No, we shouldn’t change our plans to go to Mexico; we cavers know the back roads, have many friends south of the boarder, and are generally wise and savvy travelers. But beware of the “it happens to other people” attitude. The murders and kidnappings have gotten bad enough that the highest levels of the Mexican government have been forced to pay attention (even in Cancun, I hear). Crackdowns are probably a good thing in the long run, but it probably means more bullets flying in the short term. ~~Thomas --- On Tue, 3/24/09, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Traval Advisory for Mexico 3 To: [email protected] List-Post: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2009, 1:24 PM -----Inline Attachment Follows----- I agree with your statement, Gill. But, I do have to say that my uncle has lived in Harlingen for the last 30 years and he is now talking of moving to San Antonio because of all the trouble down there. They have had some drug war shootings down there as well. He is worried and he never worries. Sheryl Gill said: I'd say avoid giving credibility to any information you receive through the popular media. They create misinformation both intentionally and unintentionally--but it's still misinformation. Fear-mongering sells news and incites emotions. --Ediger Msg sent via CableONE.net MyMail - http://www.cableone.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
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--- Begin Message ---Thomas You indeed got it a bit wrong, Ive always said that as long as you dont mess with the bad guys they will pretty much leave you alone at least thats how it works in places like this it might work a different way in border towns I'm not sure.. Getting kidnapped its a whole different animal, usually they kidnap people who they already know have the means to pay ransom and they usually study your all your movements before they make a move on you. As for getting caught in the middle of a gun fight well that'd be plain bad luck, the odds are pretty slim though something along the lines of getting struck by lightning, same thing goes to getting robbed on the streets. Of course there is problems but one must learn how to avoid them. Happy Mexico traveling everyone Nico On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Thomas Sitch <[email protected]> wrote: > Interesting, I’m seeing and hearing two different things. > > > > When it comes to the narco-traffickers and the violence I hear some folks > saying something to the effect of “crime happens to other people,” “I went > to Mexico and nothing bad happened, therefore there are no problems,” etc. > > > > I consistently hear from my Mexican friends such as Nico and Maria (and > Nico can correct me if I’ve got it wrong) that you have to respect and stay > the hell out of the way of the narco-traffickers. > > > >
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--- Begin Message --- For those few Texas cavers who may have known Dale Ibberson--a very active mover and shaker in the York Grotto, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and MAR caving scene in general, and the NSS for over 40 years--I'm sorry to have to report that he died a few days ago. The information I have is a bit sketchy so I can't supply any more details right now.Dale was a good friend of mine since the early '70s. He was an ardent speleo-historian. The walls of his house were lined with bookshelves filled not only with books but with all sorts of art related to caves and caving. He was a major figure in caving politics in the MAR for as long as he'd been caving. Dale was an excellent example of a caver dedicated to the sport.--Ediger
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--- Begin Message ---Gil, Sorry to hear about Dale, he was a great caver from Pennsylvania and a mentor to many young cavers. Geary -----Original Message----- From: Gill Ediger [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:02 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Texascavers] Ibberson has died For those few Texas cavers who may have known Dale Ibberson--a very active mover and shaker in the York Grotto, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and MAR caving scene in general, and the NSS for over 40 years--I'm sorry to have to report that he died a few days ago. The information I have is a bit sketchy so I can't supply any more details right now. Dale was a good friend of mine since the early '70s. He was an ardent speleo-historian. The walls of his house were lined with bookshelves filled not only with books but with all sorts of art related to caves and caving. He was a major figure in caving politics in the MAR for as long as he'd been caving. Dale was an excellent example of a caver dedicated to the sport. --Ediger --------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
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--- Begin Message --- Hi Gill and all:
Below is a link to Dale's Obit and a log book
http://obits.pennlive.com/PennLive/DeathNotices.asp?Page=Lifestory&PersonId=124960357
Gary Moss
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At 09:01 AM 3/25/2009, Gill Ediger wrote:
For those few Texas cavers who may have known Dale Ibberson--a very active mover and shaker in the York Grotto, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and MAR caving scene in general, and the NSS for over 40 years--I'm sorry to have to report that he died a few days ago. The information I have is a bit sketchy so I can't supply any more details right now.
Dale was a good friend of mine since the early '70s. He was an ardent speleo-historian. The walls of his house were lined with bookshelves filled not only with books but with all sorts of art related to caves and caving. He was a major figure in caving politics in the MAR for as long as he'd been caving. Dale was an excellent example of a caver dedicated to the sport.
--Ediger
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--- Begin Message ---I'm really sorry to hear this. I can only remember a couple short cave trips with Dale, but there were many nights around the fire are various caver functions over the years. He was a good guy. Keith ________________________________ From: Gill Ediger <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:01:51 AM Subject: [Texascavers] Ibberson has died For those few Texas cavers who may have known Dale Ibberson--a very active mover and shaker in the York Grotto, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and MAR caving scene in general, and the NSS for over 40 years--I'm sorry to have to report that he died a few days ago. The information I have is a bit sketchy so I can't supply any more details right now. Dale was a good friend of mine since the early '70s. He was an ardent speleo-historian. The walls of his house were lined with bookshelves filled not only with books but with all sorts of art related to caves and caving. He was a major figure in caving politics in the MAR for as long as he'd been caving. Dale was an excellent example of a caver dedicated to the sport. --Ediger --------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
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--- Begin Message ---http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/science/24obbats.html?ref=science -- Go find out! -Heather Tuček UT Grotto (512) 773-1348 [email protected]
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