texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 16:51:44 -0000 Issue 690
Topics (messages 9921 through 9934):
Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
9921 by: Lyndon Tiu
9926 by: Minton, Mark
9927 by: Lyndon Tiu
9930 by: Butch Fralia
TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense
9922 by: Gill Ediger
9931 by: Ted Samsel
9934 by: Charles Goldsmith
PDF distribution
9923 by: Gill Ediger
TC Now Online!!!!
9924 by: Gill Ediger
9925 by: Lyndon Tiu
TEXAS CAVER hard copies
9928 by: Gill Ediger
9929 by: Lyndon Tiu
Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes
9932 by: Butch Fralia
9933 by: Keith Goggin
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--- Begin Message ---
> have both hard paper and electronic copies.
> all of the previous copies of TC going to be archived in PDF format and
> made available
Pandoras box has opened!
Now you have a lot of work to do Mark!
All this in the name of saving money, means you will loose a lot of sweat.
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lyndon said:
>>Could we make it where it's read only (not downloadable) on the web site?
>Not possible with the internet. In any form (pdf, html, ascii, ebcidic, etc),
>once you open and read it on your own computer, the binary reprentation of the
>text is transferred from the TSA web server to your computer. From there, you
>can copy it and distribute it "wontanly".
This is definitely true, even for things that people thought they had
cleverly protected from downloading or printing. For example, some free trial
versions of programs allow one to use their functionality but not to save or
print the results. I have several of those. If I want to keep the results, I
simply make a screen shot and then paste that into a blank image in an image
manipulation program (IrfanView <http://www.irfanview.com/> is a good free
one). I can then select only the relevant portion of the screen shot and paste
that into a new blank image to get my results free of extraneous headers,
borders, etc. Very quick and easy, and the resulting image can be printed or
whatever. About the only thing this doesn't cover is making the copied text
searchable or manipulable, and there are even ways to do that with OCR
programs. Once it's on your screen, it's yours to keep if you want it.
Another trick for keeping things that are not supposed to be savable is
to find the copy in your computer's cache. When you download anything using a
web browser your computer almost always keeps a copy. That's why you can
refresh or revisit the page and it comes back up very rapidly. Generally that
cached copy is hidden away deep in some obscure system or program folder, but
if you can find it, you can copy it. I used to to that with YouTube videos,
which do not have an obvious mechanism for saving them. One way to find those
obscure cahed files is to search for files based on date/time. If it's the
last thing you did, it will generally be one of the last couple of files saved.
Where there's a will, there's a way. :-)
Mark Minton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:30:48 -0500 [email protected] wrote:
> ... Generally that cached copy is hidden away
> deep in some obscure system or program folder, but if you can find it,
> you can copy it. I used to to that with YouTube videos, which do not
> have an obvious mechanism for saving them. One way to find those
> obscure cahed files is to search for files based on date/time. If
> it's the last thing you did, it will generally be one of the last
> couple of files saved. Where there's a will, there's a way. :-)
>
I could not have explained it better! Thanks for explaining and sharing.
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I never understood that registering for the member area would determine
whether someone got a hard copy or electronic copy. Whether you get a hard
copy or electronic copy is a membership option (online anyway). Electronic
copies should be available to all members but some members will opt to get
their copy there vs. a hard copy. Personally I prefer the electronic
version because I'm swamped in "hard copy."
Butch
P.S., I've noted a few folks Mark, Lyndon finding bugs, I'll get those
attended to asap.
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:59 AM
To: Keith Goggin; Lyndon Tiu; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
We can look into this option, Keith.
Another item for your "To Do List", huh. Butch?
Thanks,
Mark
_____
From: Keith Goggin [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Fri 1/16/2009 7:58 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Lyndon Tiu; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
Maybe I've misread something, but seems to me that regardless of whether or
not you pay more for a hard copy the digital copies should be available to
all paid members.
_____
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: Lyndon Tiu <[email protected]>; [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:40:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
No, Lyndon.
We agreed to strongly encourage everyone to sign up in the Members
Section on the TSA website.
By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site
for each TC that comes out.
If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.
We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.
We may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.
More than one person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and
charging more for those that want the hard copy.
Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a good thing.
See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for helping out!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 [email protected] wrote:
> We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership,
> A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed
TC.
Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 -
that everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically
request for it? And they only have to request once and all future copies
will be mailed out to them or is it one request per issue?
Depending on the A to the above Q. An option is to sit this out and wait
and observe how things go. If the majority are happy with the electronic
version and only a few are being mailed out. Then we have solved the
primary goal of having electronic copies - saving money.
I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a few
will want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have
it.
I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same
membership amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.
I believe most don't mind either.
--
Lyndon Tiu
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--- Begin Message ---
Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is
that it CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and
digitally) archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of
printing and mailing. I cannot imagine reading an important digital
publication on line. I almost always print them out, collate them,
and read the hard copy--with my feet up on the desk. Everybody has a
printer and damned near everybody has internet. Those that don't can
have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color, more friendly
to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute. It is
one of the most important positive decisions the TSA has made in a
long time. The technology is here and the rewards will be great. The
only thing missing is that The TEXAS CAVER is still an elite
subscription newsletter online which will not be readily available to
all of the Texas cavers who would benefit from it and the TSA (and
all of Texas caving) will suffer the consequences of not having those
cavers as readers and contributors. They will miss out on the
important information published in The CAVER and and the subscribers
will miss out on the information which would normally be contributed
by those barred from 2-way access to The CAVER. The TSA is not an
association of Texas cavers; it is an association of dues payers
beating a dying dog. It can accomplish its goals only by reaching out
to and including ALL Texas cavers in its coverage. The internet
offers a cheap and simple and effective way to do that. The first
step has been taken. It's too bad that money rather than intellect
prompted that change. Let's see if common sense can move it make the
next step to include all Texas cavers in on the benefits of being a
part of the Association by offering them access to both read and
contribute to the valuable contents of The TEXAS CAVER.
I must ask those in the TSA: Why do you not want to reach everybody
who is caving in Texas with your safety and conservation message and
to promote good and smart caving practices among them and induce more
submission to The TEXAS CAVER? Why? The mechanism is in place; let's
use it to reach out to those non-participants. Draw them in with a
positive influence and counteract any bad caving habits they may
have--all at no cost to anyone.
--Ediger
At 10:36 PM 1/15/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
Now, to the issue at hand, I disagree, if anyone wants a hard copy,
have it printed, you'll come out a bit more expensive, but that way
the rest of us don't have to pay for the additional cost via higher
subscriptions.
The TSA is moving in the correct direction.
As far as making sure these are always available, until time ends,
proper planning of the TSA with this is prudent.
Multiple off-site storage of the files should be mandatory, and
accurate accounting of the off-site files.
Requiring everyone to pay more for a hard-copy is selfish and not
prudent in these economical times. I can afford for higher dues, do I
want them, no. Not everyone could afford them, we should probably
talk about dropping them a bit to help everyone out.
If you don't have a printer, you can take the pdf to many printing
shops to have it printed. If you insist on having one mailed to you
in hard copy, perhaps the TSA will consent with doing a special rate
for those, paying a higher dues to cover the printing/mailing cost.
This should not be imposed on everyone though, only to those who elect
to pay that cost.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gill Ediger <[email protected]>
>Sent: Jan 16, 2009 9:36 AM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense
>
>Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is
>that it CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and
>digitally) archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of
>printing and mailing. I cannot imagine reading an important digital
>publication on line. I almost always print them out, collate them,
>and read the hard copy--with my feet up on the desk. Everybody has a
>printer and damned near everybody has internet. Those that don't can
>have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color, more friendly
>to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute.
And if one desires traditional hard copy, one could take up book binding and
have matching volumes of "fine Corinthian leather" or use the skin of baby
Naugas.
R. Montalban
http://home.infionline.net/~tbsamsel/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the
membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the
TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships will drop.
So the big question comes, what value does TSA bring besides the
publication? I've heard this question at other times, even when not
discussing electronic versus printing issues.
I don't have all of the answers, but this is what I've seen:
The TSA promotes Texas caving in many ways, CBSP project, helping with
land acquisition, and donated money for repairs at Honey Creek.
I know there are a lot of other ways, and anyone that complains should
attend the meetings and be vocal. Merely complaining online isn't
going to cut it. The TSA membership voted, the decision has been
made. And before anyone complains that they didn't vote on it, you
know the answer to this, you should have been present.
We all have our opinions on the matter, we are entitled to them,
however, it doesn't mean that we are right :)
Charles
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Gill Ediger <[email protected]> wrote:
> Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is that it
> CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and digitally)
> archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of printing and mailing. I
> cannot imagine reading an important digital publication on line. I almost
> always print them out, collate them, and read the hard copy--with my feet up
> on the desk. Everybody has a printer and damned near everybody has internet.
> Those that don't can have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color,
> more friendly to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute.
> It is one of the most important positive decisions the TSA has made in a
> long time. The technology is here and the rewards will be great. The only
> thing missing is that The TEXAS CAVER is still an elite subscription
> newsletter online which will not be readily available to all of the Texas
> cavers who would benefit from it and the TSA (and all of Texas caving) will
> suffer the consequences of not having those cavers as readers and
> contributors. They will miss out on the important information published in
> The CAVER and and the subscribers will miss out on the information which
> would normally be contributed by those barred from 2-way access to The
> CAVER. The TSA is not an association of Texas cavers; it is an association
> of dues payers beating a dying dog. It can accomplish its goals only by
> reaching out to and including ALL Texas cavers in its coverage. The internet
> offers a cheap and simple and effective way to do that. The first step has
> been taken. It's too bad that money rather than intellect prompted that
> change. Let's see if common sense can move it make the next step to include
> all Texas cavers in on the benefits of being a part of the Association by
> offering them access to both read and contribute to the valuable contents of
> The TEXAS CAVER.
>
> I must ask those in the TSA: Why do you not want to reach everybody who is
> caving in Texas with your safety and conservation message and to promote
> good and smart caving practices among them and induce more submission to The
> TEXAS CAVER? Why? The mechanism is in place; let's use it to reach out to
> those non-participants. Draw them in with a positive influence and
> counteract any bad caving habits they may have--all at no cost to anyone.
>
> --Ediger
>
> At 10:36 PM 1/15/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
>>
>> Now, to the issue at hand, I disagree, if anyone wants a hard copy,
>> have it printed, you'll come out a bit more expensive, but that way
>> the rest of us don't have to pay for the additional cost via higher
>> subscriptions.
>>
>> The TSA is moving in the correct direction.
>>
>> As far as making sure these are always available, until time ends,
>> proper planning of the TSA with this is prudent.
>>
>> Multiple off-site storage of the files should be mandatory, and
>> accurate accounting of the off-site files.
>>
>> Requiring everyone to pay more for a hard-copy is selfish and not
>> prudent in these economical times. I can afford for higher dues, do I
>> want them, no. Not everyone could afford them, we should probably
>> talk about dropping them a bit to help everyone out.
>>
>> If you don't have a printer, you can take the pdf to many printing
>> shops to have it printed. If you insist on having one mailed to you
>> in hard copy, perhaps the TSA will consent with doing a special rate
>> for those, paying a higher dues to cover the printing/mailing cost.
>> This should not be imposed on everyone though, only to those who elect
>> to pay that cost.
>
>
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> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:56 PM 1/15/2009, Mixon Bill wrote:
Let's see. I'm supposed to pay $20 a year _and_ print my own copies of
the Texas Caver? No thanks, I'll pass on that.
$20 is little more than the cost of 2 6-packs of good beer. That
money should NOT be looked upon as subscription money but as a
contribution to the good works of the TSA. The $20 membership fee
should not be looked upon as having anything at all to do with the
production and mailing cost of The TEXAS CAVER. The CAVER is free to
members--by default. And, yes, if you bear the cost of printing your
online copy at home you have the added benefit of getting a color
copy for your archives. Consider the cost of printing it to be your
subscription cost if you really have a desire to worry about that. It
will probably be a good bit less than $20--a cost which will no
longer have to be borne by the TSA by the way. This is a simple
problem with a simple solution. It involves so little money on any
caver's part as to be virtually inconsequential. That cannot be the
real basis of anyone's arguing against it. Abject silliness, I say.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:53 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
The tiered membership and "wontan" distribution issues are another
set of issues we can deal with separately.
Hey, what if you charge $20 (or even 30) for an on-line subscription
without TSA membership. It would be worth it not having to deal with
all this political and selfish unlogic.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:18:28 -0600 [email protected] wrote:
> At 07:53 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
> >The tiered membership and "wontan" distribution issues are another
> >set of issues we can deal with separately.
>
> Hey, what if you charge $20 (or even 30) for an on-line subscription
> without TSA membership. It would be worth it not having to deal with
> all this political and selfish unlogic.
No taxation without representation?
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:22 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
> have both hard paper and electronic copies.
People can print their own damned hard copies! That is not a
difficult thing to understand. Who's not paying attention? I say again:
People can print their own damned hard copies! Blatantly simple. That
is the beauty of getting an on-line version. You get either or both
and at absolutely NO (read ZERO here) cost to the TSA. Then, do what
thou wilt with them. Archive away--paper, digital, clay tablet,
whatever you want.
That is as bottom line as you can get. And as cheap and as simple.
And just one field in the database. And no need for further
discussion or confusion. It covers ALL the bases I've seen presented so far.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:37:13 -0600 [email protected] wrote:
> At 08:22 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
> > > have both hard paper and electronic copies.
>
... and I'm perfectly happy with my electronic copy. I was just quoting
somebody else.
> People can print their own damned hard copies! That is not a
> difficult thing to understand. Who's not paying attention? I say again:
>
As I said in a previous email, it seems to me that only a small vocal minority
are asking for hard copies and an even smaller minority wants both. I think
most don't care either ways.
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can now update your profile online and change the state on both
registration and your profile.
Butch
From: Butch Fralia [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:49 AM
To: [email protected]; 'Keith Goggin'; 'Lyndon Tiu';
[email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
I never understood that registering for the member area would determine
whether someone got a hard copy or electronic copy. Whether you get a hard
copy or electronic copy is a membership option (online anyway). Electronic
copies should be available to all members but some members will opt to get
their copy there vs. a hard copy. Personally I prefer the electronic
version because I'm swamped in "hard copy."
Butch
P.S., I've noted a few folks Mark, Lyndon finding bugs, I'll get those
attended to asap.
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:59 AM
To: Keith Goggin; Lyndon Tiu; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
We can look into this option, Keith.
Another item for your "To Do List", huh. Butch?
Thanks,
Mark
_____
From: Keith Goggin [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Fri 1/16/2009 7:58 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Lyndon Tiu; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
Maybe I've misread something, but seems to me that regardless of whether or
not you pay more for a hard copy the digital copies should be available to
all paid members.
_____
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: Lyndon Tiu <[email protected]>; [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:40:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
No, Lyndon.
We agreed to strongly encourage everyone to sign up in the Members
Section on the TSA website.
By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site
for each TC that comes out.
If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.
We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.
We may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.
More than one person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and
charging more for those that want the hard copy.
Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a good thing.
See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for helping out!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 [email protected] wrote:
> We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership,
> A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed
TC.
Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 -
that everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically
request for it? And they only have to request once and all future copies
will be mailed out to them or is it one request per issue?
Depending on the A to the above Q. An option is to sit this out and wait
and observe how things go. If the majority are happy with the electronic
version and only a few are being mailed out. Then we have solved the
primary goal of having electronic copies - saving money.
I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a few
will want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have
it.
I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same
membership amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.
I believe most don't mind either.
--
Lyndon Tiu
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Butch!
People can print their own damned hard copies!
Here's an idea - let's just pool a portion of the dues money and communally buy
a good quality color printer (since that is a fairly expensive iten for a lot
of individuals and probably most of us don't have one) and then mail it out.
Oh wait...
________________________________
From: Butch Fralia <[email protected]>
To: Butch Fralia <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Keith
Goggin <[email protected]>; Lyndon Tiu <[email protected]>;
[email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:36:28 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes
You can now update your profile online and change the state on both
registration and your profile.
Butch
From:Butch Fralia [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:49 AM
To: [email protected]; 'Keith Goggin'; 'Lyndon Tiu';
[email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
I never understood that registering for the member area would determine whether
someone got a hard copy or electronic copy. Whether you get a hard copy or
electronic copy is a membership option (online anyway). Electronic copies
should be available to all members but some members will opt to get their copy
there vs. a hard copy. Personally I prefer the electronic version because I’m
swamped in “hard copy.”
Butch
P.S., I’ve noted a few folks Mark, Lyndon finding bugs, I’ll get those attended
to asap.
From:[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:59 AM
To: Keith Goggin; Lyndon Tiu; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
We can look into this option, Keith.
Another item for your "To Do List", huh. Butch?
Thanks,
Mark
________________________________
From:Keith Goggin [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Fri 1/16/2009 7:58 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Lyndon Tiu; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
Maybe I've misread something, but seems to me that regardless of whether or not
you pay more for a hard copy the digital copies should be available to all paid
members.
________________________________
From:"[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: Lyndon Tiu <[email protected]>; [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:40:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
No, Lyndon.
We agreed to strongly encourage everyone to sign up in the Members
Section on the TSA website.
By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site
for each TC that comes out.
If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.
We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.
We may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.
More than one person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and
charging more for those that want the hard copy.
Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a good thing.
See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for helping out!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 [email protected] wrote:
> We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership,
> A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed
TC.
Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 -
that everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically
request for it? And they only have to request once and all future copies
will be mailed out to them or is it one request per issue?
Depending on the A to the above Q. An option is to sit this out and wait
and observe how things go. If the majority are happy with the electronic
version and only a few are being mailed out. Then we have solved the
primary goal of having electronic copies - saving money.
I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a few
will want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have
it.
I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same
membership amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.
I believe most don't mind either.
--
Lyndon Tiu
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