texascavers Digest 23 Sep 2008 14:14:39 -0000 Issue 611
Topics (messages 8974 through 8988):
Re: Texas Cavers Reunion
8974 by: Allan Cobb
Re: Houston Cavers; others please disregard
8975 by: RD Milhollin
All PBSS members past (and present)
8976 by: J. LaRue Thomas
Giant Crystal Cave
8977 by: Lee H. Skinner
Re: [NMCAVER] Giant Crystal Cave
8978 by: Lee H. Skinner
Caves under the Pyramid of the Sun
8979 by: Matt Turner
8980 by: Allan Cobb
8981 by: Allan Cobb
8982 by: Preston Forsythe
8983 by: Ann Scott
cave food
8984 by: Nico Escamilla
8985 by: John Brooks
8987 by: Don Cooper
Re: Airmen's Cave
8986 by: John Brooks
8988 by: Jules Jenkins
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm working on it. I urge people to take space limitations into account when
considering bring an RV. Also, I do not think electricity will be available.
Allan
----- Original Message -----
From: Butch Fralia
To: 'Allan Cobb' ; 'TexasCavers'
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 2:43 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Texas Cavers Reunion
Did you ever find out what the status is for RV's?
Butch
From: Allan Cobb [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 9:58 AM
To: TexasCavers; New Mexico E-Mailing List
Subject: [Texascavers] Texas Cavers Reunion
Howdy y'all,
I hope everyone weathered Hurricane Ike.
The 31st Texas Cavers Reunion is right around the corner! The weekend of
October 10-12, we will be gathering at Paradise Canyon
(http://paradisecanyon.com/) on the Medina River for all the usual fun and
games. We hope that all cavers are planning to attend this year. I have
ordered great weather and the water is fine.
For more information and directions, you can visit www.oztotl.com/tcr.
See y'all there,
Allan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings Houston Cavers,
My work partner and I will be staying in the HOU area for several months
working insurance claims in the area, and are interested in finding a place
to live for that time. Room to set up a computer and a couple of cots,
access to AC (it is Houston, right?) and showers is the bare minimum we are
going to need. If you have rental property or know of suitable
accommodations I would rather rent money goes to cavers than to the
corporate hotel complex. Ideas, situations, suggestions, advice, referrals,
offers, etc. cheerfully accepted.
If you can't respond by e-mail my number is in the NSS Members Manual, or
ask Locklear.
Thanks, and hope to see some of you at a future GHG meeting.
RD Milhollin
Fort Worth
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--- Begin Message ---
Permian Basin Speleological Society is 25 years old! We plan to have a
presence at TCR and hope everyone ever involved with PBSS will come looking
for us.
We are having commemorative T-shirts made and plan to have them at TCR. If
you haven't ordered one (and you want to show everybody you are/were/will be
PBSS) you're welcome to email me and tell me how many and what size and I'll
tell you where to send the $$ and you will have one for sure. Or you may
take your chances at TCR. They are $20 each as they are a fund-raiser for
the grotto.
See you at TCR!!! Jacqui
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The National Geographic Channel will air a program in high definition
about a Mexican cave with giant crystals.
"Giant Crystal Cave" will air at 7pm Mountain Time on Sunday October 12.
See:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/photogalleries/giant-crystals-cave/
for an article about the cave.
Lee Skinner
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is another page relating to the program:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/giant-crystal-cave-3569/Overview?rm=1#tab-Overview
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Archaeologist-Open-Sealed-Cave-Beneath-The-Pyramid-of-the-Sun-89271.shtml
I just read this. It may have been posted before and I just missed it. Does
anyone have more information about how it's going or what's been discovered?
Matt Turner
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without
accepting it." - Aristotle
"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do
that."- Norman Vincent Peale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Archaeologist-Open-Sealed-Cave-Beneath-The-Pyramid-of-the-Sun-89271.shtml
I just read this. It may have been posted before and I just missed it. Does
anyone have more information about how it's going or what's been discovered?
I don't know what has been done but I do know that the cave under the Pyramid
of the Sun was not sealed up. I was lucky enough to visit the cave a few years
ago when I was doing some cave archaeology work in Puebla. The entrance to the
cave was gated and a metal staircase was installed soon after it was
discovered. The entrance is located at the base of the main stairway up the
pyramid. It has a metal plate for a gate. When I was there, the guards came
over and unlocked the gate so we could enter. The manmade cave is just under
100 m long and varies in height from about 1.5 to over 2 m with a similar
width. The passage changes shape with what were likely various construction
phases of the pyramid. An interesting observation that I made in the cave is
that the passage does not run straight but rather has a series of shallow
curves. The shallow curves make it impossible to see far ahead or far behind
giving the impression that the passage is much longer. The cave ends under the
center of the pyramid and has several small chambers.
Allan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are interested, here is a FAMSI report on some recent work done in the
cave. The report has a map of the cave and some photos.
http://www.famsi.org/reports/06017/06017Sload01.pdf
Allan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe Don Coons surveyed that cave around 1975.
Preston
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
----- Original Message -----
From: Allan Cobb
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Caves under the Pyramid of the Sun
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Archaeologist-Open-Sealed-Cave-Beneath-The-Pyramid-of-the-Sun-89271.shtml
I just read this. It may have been posted before and I just missed it. Does
anyone have more information about how it's going or what's been discovered?
I don't know what has been done but I do know that the cave under the Pyramid
of the Sun
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt et al.,
With some journalists, they just don't get their information correct
100% of the time! I looked at this article and pretty much it's got
some glaring errors. Building upon what Allan Cobb already posted, the
cave has been open up for researchers and wasn't sealed up. The
article notes: The caves were discovered during the 1970s; however,
they were immediately sealed up. Also, most of the information
collected at the time of the discovery was lost forever.
That's pretty much not true and in fact I'm co-organizing a symposium
on cave archaeology next year that will have 3 of the major
investigators from the 1970s plus Rebecca Sload (FAMSI project)
talking about their findings over the years! The information was never
lost...much has been published on it but a major synthesis hasn't been
done but hopefully is close. This future work mentioned in the
softpedia article will complement what's already been done, which is
extensive, just not very public. I'm unsure of all the players in the
game but hopefully they all get along and the public can benefit from
their full investigations! We shall see!
Ann
On Sep 22, 2008, at 9:50 AM, Matt Turner wrote:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Archaeologist-Open-Sealed-Cave-Beneath-The-Pyramid-of-the-Sun-89271.shtml
I just read this. It may have been posted before and I just missed
it. Does anyone have more information about how it's going or what's
been discovered?
Matt Turner
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a
thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty
hearts can do that."- Norman Vincent Peale
Ann Scott, PhD Candidate
Latin American Studies
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forget about all the candy bars, cheese, jerky etcetera that y'all carry on
a cave trip,
this Baskin Robbins Heath
Shake<http://www.baskinrobbins.com/Nutrition/Product.aspx?Category=Beverages&id=BV228>should
be enough to take you through the hardest of death marches
and best of all, it fits right in a nalgene bottle. it clocks at over 2300
calories. WANT!!!
and then there's the nay sayers at
Consumerist<http://consumerist.com/5052633/baskin-robbins-death-shake-has-2300-calories>who
say you shouldnt drink this "death shake"
thoughts?
Nico
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would it melt while in your cave pack?....but not in your hands?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 22, 2008, at 7:24 PM, "Nico Escamilla" <[email protected]> wrote:
Forget about all the candy bars, cheese, jerky etcetera that y'all carry on a
cave trip,
this Baskin Robbins Heath Shake should be enough to take you through the
hardest of death marches
and best of all, it fits right in a nalgene bottle. it clocks at over 2300
calories. WANT!!!
and then there's the nay sayers at Consumerist who say you shouldnt drink this
"death shake"
thoughts?
Nico
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The "Heath Shake" sho' ain't no "Health Shake"!
Sheeeit - NOT just 2310 calories but it has 166% (108grams) of your
recommended daily intake of total fat - 64grams of that in deadly
TRANS-Fat. AND It has 98% of your recommended daily Cholesterol!
Well, at least it doesn't contain wheat, peanuts, fish, eggs or crustaceans!
-WaV
On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 7:26 PM, John Brooks <[email protected]>wrote:
> Would it melt while in your cave pack?....but not in your hands?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 22, 2008, at 7:24 PM, "Nico Escamilla" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> Forget about all the candy bars, cheese, jerky etcetera that y'all carry on
> a cave trip,
> this Baskin Robbins Heath
> Shake<http://www.baskinrobbins.com/Nutrition/Product.aspx?Category=Beverages&id=BV228>should
> be enough to take you through the hardest of death marches
> and best of all, it fits right in a nalgene bottle. it clocks at over 2300
> calories. WANT!!!
>
> and then there's the nay sayers at
> Consumerist<http://consumerist.com/5052633/baskin-robbins-death-shake-has-2300-calories>who
> say you shouldnt drink this "death shake"
>
> thoughts?
>
> Nico
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sent from my iPhone
Begin forwarded message:
From: Joe Zamecki <[email protected]>
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: September 21, 2008 11:45:48 PM CDT
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Airmen's Cave
Howdy! I went with a friend into Airmen's Cave, the first few dozen feet
anyway, and we got
some nice video. I wanted to share it with you and your group:
1 Getting There: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tzdmqtNRWo
2 Getting Into: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQLND4X94t4
3 Getting Out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYek28q95hI
4 Chattin': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThWzE6JwM8g
Seeya!
Joe Zamecki
Austin, TX
See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your
life. See Now
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
I generally wouldn't respond to this type of email, I'd view it, enjoy it, and
toss it. However, for more than a decade a couple of us have worked with the
city of Austin to develop a trust relationship, to embody the cave community as
a responsible group of individuals who care about the karst and protecting our
cave resources. We've worked very diligently to help the city feel comfortable
and safe with cavers and their activities. In other words, we've built
ourselves into a position as an asset to the city for their caves, we're the
unofficial 'eyes and ears on the karst'. The local caving community does lots
of outreach, education, and guides lots and lots of cave trips. This
relationship which, at best allows cavers a lot of freedom in usage is also
very tenuous
and problems often have resulted in
cavers loosing access,
even when it's not been a caver caused problem. I feel compelled to respond
to this email posting and hope that by addressing this I don't inflame the
caver community but, rather get you all to think and consider the impact of
your actions.
Although these video segments are somewhat factual and somewhat amusing, it's
posting video's such as these, providing exact directions and encouraging the
internet world at large by providing so much info that it threatens the
continued open access to this cave and potentially other Austin area caves
owned by the city.
The August 2007 Airmen's search, which one of these guys states he was involved
with has still not been resolved and the city of Austin, who owns the cave is
still seriously looking at gating the cave. This sort of encouragement and
advertisement of the cave will NOT help the situation.
I can appreciate that with all our technology, gps, video, digital cameras,
internet etc. that it's tough to maintain
the caver 'ethic' of NOT giving out locations but, if we as the caving
community do not continue this practice we will very likely loose access to
this cave and perhaps if we're not more cautious and responsible for our
actions we could loose access to the other caves in Austin that cavers
currently have access to.
Having been called out by the fire dept. on the August search for the UT
students, I don't recall these guys at all being involved but, then I was busy
locating the students. What I learned from the experience and can share w/the
entire caving community is that the city has huge very real concerns over
location information going out to the internet and this kind of information as
well as videos on utube, links being sent out w/photos from trips that were
taken to caves that are only open for scientific research access. This puts our
caving community in a very tenuous position with the city decision makers. We
stand to loose
our access
privprivilegesause this kind of widespread and specific information increases
the potential for unprepared individuals to attempt to do the cave trip, likely
resulting in other 'rescues' or 'searches', which translates to problems, lots
of $$'s on the part of the city, lots of outcry from the tax paying public, and
potential life threatening danger to the non prepared cave visitor.
Whether you all live in Austin or not, every incident right, wrong, or
indifferent reflects on the Austin caving community. If we're shut out, and ALL
the caves gated, access denied, then we all loose. It may not make a difference
to non Austin cavers but, it does make a difference to the Austin caving
community.
I've just been contacted again by the city to meet to look at the problems and
issues that have arisen regarding 'rescues', the cost the Austin's citizens
(nearly 20K for this last incident with UT students) and the potential
liability for the city, and
it's going to be very difficult to emploimplorecity to leave Airmen's open,
and to allow cavers continued access when cavers continue to publicize
locations, names, and techniques. And believe me, they will have already seen
this email link before we meet at the end of the week, you see they're on
cavetex, too.!!
This is a plea to the caving community to discontinue publicizing by whatever
method directions, locations, how-to's, and commentary about caves in general
but, more specifically Austin caves. Y'all are killin' us in Austin and we're
not going to be able to justify asking that the caves remain open with so much
info out on the internet.
Conversely, from the city prospective whose mandate is one of protecting the
public both from danger and from unreasonable costs to the city and it's tax
paying citizens, duh, it's gonna make sense for them to gate the cave reduce or
eliminate the problem or potential for
problems.
Y'all are making this a battle that can't be won by providing this sort of
detailed information.
And I gotta tell you once it's gone we're not likely to ever get it back.
Again, please think before you decide you're going to post something to the
internet. If you gotta share, do it with a small select group, not the world
and not cavetex at large.
You know anyone can join cavetex and there are several city staff folks who
read cavetex.
If we don't police ourselves, the city, who owns most of the caves in Austin
area will police us, and that will take the form of NO ACCESS at worst and very
controlled, limited access at best.
thanks,
Julie Jenkins
--- On Tue, 9/23/08, John Brooks <[email protected]> wrote:
From: John Brooks <[email protected]>
Subject: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave
To: "Texas Cavers" <[email protected]>
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 1:37 AM
Sent from my iPhone
Begin forwarded message:
From: Joe Zamecki <[email protected]>
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: September 21, 2008 11:45:48 PM CDT
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Airmen's Cave
Howdy! I went with a friend into Airmen's Cave, the first few dozen feet
anyway, and we got
some nice video. I wanted to share it with you and your group:
1 Getting There: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tzdmqtNRWo
2 Getting Into: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQLND4X94t4
3 Getting Out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYek28q95hI
4 Chattin': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThWzE6JwM8g
Seeya!
Joe Zamecki
Austin, TX
See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your
life. See Now
--- End Message ---
