texascavers Digest 24 Sep 2008 00:06:45 -0000 Issue 613
Topics (messages 8996 through 9004):
Re: Airmans Cave rescue discussion
8996 by: Minton, Mark
Re: Airmen's Cave
8997 by: Diana Tomchick
8999 by: Quinta Wilkinson
9004 by: S S
Airman's Cave Video
8998 by: William H. Russell
9000 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
9001 by: Fritz Holt
9002 by: Nico Escamilla
9003 by: Lyndon Tiu
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--- Begin Message ---
Jim Kennedy said:
>And as for the costs, maybe the EMS was getting paid to be there (maybe not,
>some of them might have been off-duty),
snip
>I suspect that there were some other expendables added in to the total also,
>such as phone wire, food, batteries, and so on. Yes, these things do add up.
>Very quickly.
I was not involved with the Airman's rescue in question, so I do not know
what direct costs there might have been. No doubt there were some. However it
is very common for agencies to report costs which are not directly related to
the incident at hand, and it seems like they try to make them as large as
possible. Maybe this is ammunition they can use to request a larger budget for
themselves. As an example, when we were flown to Mexico for the Brinco rescue
back in '78 it was widely reported that it cost taxpayers something like
$300,000 because the Air Force flew a couple of truckloads of cavers and their
trucks to Victoria. However the crew of the plane told us that they were glad
to get to do something different, and that if they hadn't been flying us they
would have been flying some training mission. That means that the cost of the
flights (crew, equipment, fuel) cannot rightly be called a cost of the rescue,
because that is money that would have been spent anyway. The same goes for any
rescue personnel anywhere who are simply doing their jobs and would have been
paid whether or not a given rescue had occurred. One always has to take such
accounts of expenses with a grain of salt.
Nevertheless, I agree with Julie that that is not really the point.
Keeping specific information about cave locations and any "unprofessional"
behavior that may occur out of the public domain can only be a benefit to
cavers. (And I'm not saying there was any unseemly behavior involved in this
case - I haven't seen the YouTube videos due to my slow modem Internet
connection.)
Mark Minton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe,
Are you a member of the National Speleological Society, or of an NSS-
chartered grotto? If not, I recommend that you look into joining the
"caving community" in a formal way, as so many of us (including Julie
Jenkins) have already done.
On the NSS web site (www.caves.org), under the link, "Caving
Brochures," is the "Guide to Responsible Caving." I encourage you to
read it; I excerpt relevant parts of it below:
"PROTECTING CAVES
Sharing cave locations
Do not reveal the location of caves to people whose regard for caves
might result in harm. You are responsible for protecting both the cave
and the people who might misuse your information. Increasing casual
traffic in caves (by geocaching or posting locations on web sites, for
example) is misusing cave location information. It leads to vandalism
and degradation of the cave, and it can upset cave owners.
CAVING COURTESY
Landowner relations
Good relationships between cavers and landowners are an essential part
of visiting caves, and maintaining these relationships is a key
element of responsible caving. Sadly, many landowners now prohibit
people from entering their caves as a result of inconsiderate actions
by cave visitors, and others have placed locked gates on their caves.
Observe these fundamental courtesies to receive permission to enter
caves, to be welcomed as a guest in the future, and to keep caves open
for other cavers."
Also, I encourage you to read the NSS Cave Conservation Policy (http://www.caves.org/committee/conservation/
). I excerpt two relevant passages below:
"...the intention of the Society is to work for the preservation of
caves with a realistic policy supported by effective programs for: the
encouragement of self-discipline among cavers.."
"Where there is reason to believe that publication of cave locations
will lead to vandalism before adequate protection can be established,
the Society will oppose such publication."
You do not have to "hide the beauty of Austin." You just don't need to
share the location of arguably the least beautiful (though most
sporting!) cave in Austin with all of the untrained couch potatoes out
there who are likely to treat Airmen's as some kind of reality-tv-show
adventure, so that responsible cavers wind up having to drag their ill-
prepared butts out of trouble when they get lost, dehydrated and
exhausted.
Diana
On Sep 23, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Jules Jenkins wrote:
Joe,
I'm not arguing your right or thoughts as someone who considers
themselves a caver but, I know from experience that if the Austin
caver community doesn't consider this matter an important issue we
as a caver community will either have very limited or no access to
City of Austin owned caves.
This is not about what I think is worth sharing or not, it's about
what I hear from the city staff because I'm one of the folks who is
contacted when there's an issue or problem. I want the caves in
Austin available in perpetuity. What I don't want is for cavers to
loose access because of world-wide information about how and where
the cave is located. There's a reason all the other city caves are
gated, Joe and if we don't want that to happen to Airmen's we need
to take care about what info we make available.
Hey, feel free to take whomever you like but, please don't publicize
it to the whole world. Publicize it to your friends and family and
others who you care about, just not the whole world.
I don't have a negative attitude about our caves quite the opposite,
I've dedicated years to helping insure that cavers such as you Joe
have access to Austin caves and you are not helping that situation.
Potentially your attitude is what might cost cavers access. Point
of fact is it doesn't matter what you think should be the access for
Airmen's, it's not YOUR cave and if cavers don't help the issues
regarding Airmen's or any other city owned caves we're not going to
be able to use them, it's that simple. We don't own it.
For the past 20+ years that I've been caving and I'm sure for years
before that there has been a caver - landowner relationship effort.
If you want access you don't mess with the landowners wishes and
that what's at risk here with your attitude Joe. I'm delighted
you're proud of caving as am I however it doesn't mean that you do
what you want at the risk of messing access up for the whole caver
community.
I'm not suggesting that you not be proud nor am I suggesting that
you don't take video's.. I am suggesting that the community limit
the world-wide access to what you film as it has potentially
detrimental consequences to cave access in Austin with city of
Austin caves.
Joe, I'm asking for your help to insure that we do have access to
Airmen's and other Austin caves and I implore all of Texas cavers
and especially Austin area cavers to help explain to Joe what
happens when we piss of the cave owners. Who suffers regardless of
who is at fault, it's always been cavers.
julie
--- On Tue, 9/23/08, Joe Zamecki <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Joe Zamecki <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave
To: [email protected], "Texas Cavers"
<[email protected]>, "John Brooks"
<[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 4:56 PM
Ouch. A negative attitude about caves and Austin. I think Airmen's
Cave should be opened up to the public, more than it is, and not
hidden like it's an eyesore. Just because you think it's not worth
sharing, don't bother me about that.
The caving community ought to utilizing video and sites like
Youtube. We have something great in our caves, and I'm going to
share them with pride. Shame on anyone who wants to hide the beauty
of Austin.
Joe Zamecki
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:14:39 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
CC: [email protected]; [email protected]
All,
I generally wouldn't respond to this type of email, I'd view it,
enjoy it, and toss it. However, for more than a decade a couple of
us have worked with the city of Austin to develop a trust
relationship, to embody the cave community as a responsible group of
individuals who care about the karst and protecting our cave
resources. We've worked very diligently to help the city feel
comfortable and safe with cavers and their activities. In other
words, we've built ourselves into a position as an asset to the city
for their caves, we're the unofficial 'eyes and ears on the karst'.
The local caving community does lots of outreach, education, and
guides lots and lots of cave trips. This relationship which, at best
allows cavers a lot of freedom in usage is also very tenuous and
problems often have resulted in cavers loosing access, even when
it's not been a caver caused problem. I feel compelled to respond
to this email posting and hope that by addressing this I don't
inflame the caver community but, rather get you all to think and
consider the impact of your actions.
Although these video segments are somewhat factual and somewhat
amusing, it's posting video's such as these, providing exact
directions and encouraging the internet world at large by providing
so much info that it threatens the continued open access to this
cave and potentially other Austin area caves owned by the city.
The August 2007 Airmen's search, which one of these guys states he
was involved with has still not been resolved and the city of
Austin, who owns the cave is still seriously looking at gating the
cave. This sort of encouragement and advertisement of the cave will
NOT help the situation.
I can appreciate that with all our technology, gps, video, digital
cameras, internet etc. that it's tough to maintain the caver 'ethic'
of NOT giving out locations but, if we as the caving community do
not continue this practice we will very likely loose access to this
cave and perhaps if we're not more cautious and responsible for our
actions we could loose access to the other caves in Austin that
cavers currently have access to.
Having been called out by the fire dept. on the August search for
the UT students, I don't recall these guys at all being involved
but, then I was busy locating the students. What I learned from the
experience and can share w/the entire caving community is that the
city has huge very real concerns over location information going out
to the internet and this kind of information as well as videos on
utube, links being sent out w/photos from trips that were taken to
caves that are only open for scientific research access. This puts
our caving community in a very tenuous position with the city
decision makers. We stand to loose our access privprivilegesause
this kind of widespread and specific information increases the
potential for unprepared individuals to attempt to do the cave trip,
likely resulting in other 'rescues' or 'searches', which translates
to problems, lots of $$'s on the part of the city, lots of outcry
from the tax paying public, and potential life threatening danger to
the non prepared cave visitor.
Whether you all live in Austin or not, every incident right, wrong,
or indifferent reflects on the Austin caving community. If we're
shut out, and ALL the caves gated, access denied, then we all loose.
It may not make a difference to non Austin cavers but, it does make
a difference to the Austin caving community.
I've just been contacted again by the city to meet to look at the
problems and issues that have arisen regarding 'rescues', the cost
the Austin's citizens (nearly 20K for this last incident with UT
students) and the potential liability for the city, and it's going
to be very difficult to emploimplorecity to leave Airmen's open, and
to allow cavers continued access when cavers continue to publicize
locations, names, and techniques. And believe me, they will have
already seen this email link before we meet at the end of the week,
you see they're on cavetex, too.!!
This is a plea to the caving community to discontinue publicizing by
whatever method directions, locations, how-to's, and commentary
about caves in general but, more specifically Austin caves. Y'all
are killin' us in Austin and we're not going to be able to justify
asking that the caves remain open with so much info out on the
internet.
Conversely, from the city prospective whose mandate is one of
protecting the public both from danger and from unreasonable costs
to the city and it's tax paying citizens, duh, it's gonna make sense
for them to gate the cave reduce or eliminate the problem or
potential for problems.
Y'all are making this a battle that can't be won by providing this
sort of detailed information.
And I gotta tell you once it's gone we're not likely to ever get it
back.
Again, please think before you decide you're going to post something
to the internet. If you gotta share, do it with a small select
group, not the world and not cavetex at large.
You know anyone can join cavetex and there are several city staff
folks who read cavetex.
If we don't police ourselves, the city, who owns most of the caves
in Austin area will police us, and that will take the form of NO
ACCESS at worst and very controlled, limited access at best.
thanks,
Julie Jenkins
--- On Tue, 9/23/08, John Brooks <[email protected]> wrote:
From: John Brooks <[email protected]>
Subject: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave
To: "Texas Cavers" <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 1:37 AM
Sent from my iPhone
Begin forwarded message:
From: Joe Zamecki <[email protected]>
Date: September 21, 2008 11:45:48 PM CDT
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Airmen's Cave
Howdy! I went with a friend into Airmen's Cave, the first few dozen
feet anyway, and we got
some nice video. I wanted to share it with you and your group:
1 Getting There: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tzdmqtNRWo
2 Getting Into: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQLND4X94t4
3 Getting Out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYek28q95hI
4 Chattin': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThWzE6JwM8g
Seeya!
Joe Zamecki
Austin, TX
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Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am thinking of the EMS and cavers who risk life or limb in the rescue of a
caver or a mountain climber who goes out when and where he should not in the
conditions that call for more knowledge or expert ability. Dos anyone have the
right to ask some one to come rescue you when you did things with out the
ability to self rescue or did not leave info and or get permits? The info on
the internet may cause some person to believe that he has the ability to do
this cave when he does not, or to go in with out the needed resource.
I know of a number of caves in North Texas and more. I would no more give
anyone a list or a map to get to one with out a landowner who said ok than I
would give my bank account number. The same goes to a state or federal owner. I
think you put yourself at legal risk. What if a person is hurt. If not legal
then I would feel guilty at the least.
I know we lost the ability to go to a number of caves in the past when cavers
left gates open and set fires with the campfire when it was a request not to.
How much easier to have the cave gated if there is an injury.
An old fuss budget!
Quinta
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would agree to an extent......
Airman's has been a well known/unknown cave for years. We do not need to
gate Airmans as besides the fact the cave is quite extensive and poses a
getting lost threat there really is no substantial danger to the would be
explorer as long as they heed the basic rules of caving.
I noticed while I was in colorado visiting some caves in the Durango area
that they had given up on gating most of their caves and resorted to simply
posting a sign out front touting the cave softly slogan and a few words about
having adequate light sources and notifying others of your exploit in the
eventuality that you got trapped or lost. Maybe posting a sign just inside the
entrance tunnel could be worth consideration given that anyone googling Airmens
cave can find dozens of web sites with location data. Typically the nature of
the cave and the ordeal of getting into the cave pretty much precludes everyone
but the most adventourous and thin persons. I would agree that we do not need
to have directions given out on the 5 o'clock news or on the front page of the
Life section in the Statesman. And caves that pose vertical hazards, have
biological concern, and/or asthetic value should cetainly have restricted
access.
Not gating the cave promotes caving more than the alternative. There are no
formations to be destroyed with the exception to the farthest reaches to which
few ever make the mile long journey to. Most of those turn back at the wire
wiggle. I am sure there are hundreds of people out there who have managed to
brave the knee pounding endless crawls and escaped to have a great adventure to
share with their friends and even go as far as to motivate some to seek out the
UT grotto.
Personaly I can think of better things to spend my tax dollars on.
SS
> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:46:02 -0500> From: [email protected]>
> To: [email protected]> CC: [email protected]> Subject: Re:
> [Texascavers] Airmen's Cave> > I second Julie's post. I was also a part of
> the August 07 rescue, and would not> want to do it again (although I would if
> necessary). I'm sure the youtube clips> were well-intentioned, and I in no
> way want to bitch at anyone here, but not> everyone can or should go into a
> cave.> > Sandi> > > ----- Original Message -----> > From: Jules Jenkins> >
> To: Texas Cavers ; John Brooks> > Cc: [email protected] ;
> [email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:14 AM> > Subject:
> Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave> >> >> > All,> > I generally wouldn't
> respond to this type of email, I'd view it,> > enjoy it, and toss it.
> However, for more than a decade a couple of us have> > worked with the city
> of Austin to develop a trust relationship, to embody the> > cave community as
> a responsible group of individuals who care about the karst> > and protecting
> our cave resources. We've worked very diligently to help the> > city feel
> comfortable and safe with cavers and their activities. In other> > words,
> we've built ourselves into a position as an asset to the city for> > their
> caves, we're the unofficial 'eyes and ears on the karst'. The local> > caving
> community does lots of outreach, education, and guides lots and lots> > of
> cave trips. This relationship which, at best allows cavers a lot of> >
> freedom in usage is also very tenuous and problems often have resulted in> >
> cavers loosing access, even when it's not been a caver caused problem. I
> feel> > compelled to respond to this email posting and hope that by
> addressing this> > I don't inflame the caver community but, rather get you
> all to think and> > consider the impact of your actions.> >> > Although these
> video segments are somewhat factual and somewhat> > amusing, it's posting
> video's such as these, providing exact directions and> > encouraging the
> internet world at large by providing so much info that it> > threatens the
> continued open access to this cave and potentially other Austin> > area caves
> owned by the city.> >> > The August 2007 Airmen's search, which one of these
> guys states he> > was involved with has still not been resolved and the city
> of Austin, who> > owns the cave is still seriously looking at gating the
> cave. This sort of> > encouragement and advertisement of the cave will NOT
> help the situation.> >> > I can appreciate that with all our technology, gps,
> video, digital> > cameras, internet etc. that it's tough to maintain the
> caver 'ethic' of NOT> > giving out locations but, if we as the caving
> community do not continue this> > practice we will very likely loose access
> to this cave and perhaps if we're> > not more cautious and responsible for
> our actions we could loose access to> > the other caves in Austin that cavers
> currently have access to.> >> > Having been called out by the fire dept. on
> the August search for the> > UT students, I don't recall these guys at all
> being involved but, then I was> > busy locating the students. What I learned
> from the experience and can share> > w/the entire caving community is that
> the city has huge very real concerns> > over location information going out
> to the internet and this kind of> > information as well as videos on utube,
> links being sent out w/photos from> > trips that were taken to caves that are
> only open for scientific research> > access. This puts our caving community
> in a very tenuous position with the> > city decision makers. We stand to
> loose our access privprivilegesause this> > kind of widespread and specific
> information increases the potential for> > unprepared individuals to attempt
> to do the cave trip, likely resulting in> > other 'rescues' or 'searches',
> which translates to problems, lots of $$'s on> > the part of the city, lots
> of outcry from the tax paying public, and> > potential life threatening
> danger to the non prepared cave visitor.> >> > Whether you all live in Austin
> or not, every incident right, wrong,> > or indifferent reflects on the Austin
> caving community. If we're shut out,> > and ALL the caves gated, access
> denied, then we all loose. It may not make a> > difference to non Austin
> cavers but, it does make a difference to the Austin> > caving community.> >>
> > I've just been contacted again by the city to meet to look at the> >
> problems and issues that have arisen regarding 'rescues', the cost the> >
> Austin's citizens (nearly 20K for this last incident with UT students) and> >
> the potential liability for the city, and it's going to be very difficult to>
> > emploimplorecity to leave Airmen's open, and to allow cavers continued
> access> > when cavers continue to publicize locations, names, and techniques.
> And> > believe me, they will have already seen this email link before we meet
> at the> > end of the week, you see they're on cavetex, too.!!> >> > This is a
> plea to the caving community to discontinue publicizing by> > whatever method
> directions, locations, how-to's, and commentary about caves> > in general
> but, more specifically Austin caves. Y'all are killin' us in> > Austin and
> we're not going to be able to justify asking that the caves remain> > open
> with so much info out on the internet.> >> > Conversely, from the city
> prospective whose mandate is one of> > protecting the public both from danger
> and from unreasonable costs to the> > city and it's tax paying citizens, duh,
> it's gonna make sense for them to> > gate the cave reduce or eliminate the
> problem or potential for problems.> > Y'all are making this a battle that
> can't be won by providing this> > sort of detailed information.> > And I
> gotta tell you once it's gone we're not likely to ever get it> > back.> >> >
> Again, please think before you decide you're going to post something> > to
> the internet. If you gotta share, do it with a small select group, not the> >
> world and not cavetex at large.> > You know anyone can join cavetex and there
> are several city staff> > folks who read cavetex.> > If we don't police
> ourselves, the city, who owns most of the caves in> > Austin area will police
> us, and that will take the form of NO ACCESS at worst> > and very controlled,
> limited access at best.> >> > thanks,> > Julie Jenkins> >> >> > --- On Tue,
> 9/23/08, John Brooks <[email protected]> wrote:> >> > From: John
> Brooks <[email protected]>> > Subject: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's
> Cave> > To: "Texas Cavers" <[email protected]>> > Date: Tuesday,
> September 23, 2008, 1:37 AM> >> >> >> >> > Sent from my iPhone> >> > Begin
> forwarded message:> >> >> > From: Joe Zamecki <[email protected]>> >
> Date: September 21, 2008 11:45:48 PM CDT> > To: <[email protected]>> >
> Subject: Airmen's Cave> >> >> > Howdy! I went with a friend into Airmen's
> Cave, the first few> > dozen feet anyway, and we got> > some nice video. I
> wanted to share it with you and your group:> >> > 1 Getting There:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tzdmqtNRWo> > 2 Getting Into:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQLND4X94t4> > 3 Getting Out:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYek28q95hI> > 4 Chattin':
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThWzE6JwM8g> >> > Seeya!> > Joe Zamecki> >
> Austin, TX> >> >> >> >> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------> > See
> how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that> > are part of
> your life. See Now> >> >> > > Sandi Calhoun> EID: SKC452> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------> Visit
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Airman's Cave Videos:
Caves should be part of public knowledge. The public cannot be
expected to protect or value caves if they don't know they exist.
Cavers are a force for the good in protecting the karst, and without
public awareness of caves, in the future there will be no cavers.
This will be a loss not only for the potential cavers who will live a
less fulfilled life, but also for the caves that suffer without the
support form their friends. But not all types of publicity are
helpful. Good publicity provides information and directs people to
organized caving, bad publicity presents the cave as a challenge and
says come and conquer, if you can. Unfortunately, the Airman's
videos tend to be more of the second type. They do provide some
information on safe caving, but there is no mention of organized
caving, and the cave is presented essentially as a physical
challenge. This type of publicity tends to attract extreme sport
thrill seekers. The here-is-where-the-cave-is focus of the video
undercuts the message to go with someone who knows the cave. The
producers of the Airman's video might intend to appeal only to the
best, but they have essentially issued a challenge to everyone. To
put this in perspective, think of what the video would be like if the
producers actually owned the cave. And, the City of Austin does own
the cave, and the people in charge do worry about abuse of the cave.
The recent Airman's video will increase their desire to have positive
control over who visits their cave.
The cost of cave "rescues" has long been an item for discussion,
especially after newspaper reports of a rescue. While much of the
discussion is about how one does the accounting, cave rescues
actually are expensive. In the last Airman's Cave "Rescue" there
were at least ten city employees who worked an additional day of
overtime. These were the most necessary and cave-worthy of the city
employees who could not be replaced when their shift was over. Not
to mention the use of equipment and supplies. And, if someone were
to say that it did not cost the city anything to fight a fire because
the fireman would have been paid even if there weren't a fire, most
people would think this was not productive thinking. If fires are
not considered cost fee, neither should cave rescues. But, the real
problem is that our society is so risk adverse that any problem, as
lost in a cave, is apt to be met with drastic solutions -- close up
those dangerous caves. Cavers know better, but private owners and
the city are likely to take the easy way to solve the "problem" of
caves.
Bill Russell
--
William Hart Russell
4806 Red River Street
Austin, TX 78751
H: 512-453-4774 (messages)
CELL: 512-940-8336
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting discussion concerning cave access, publicity, secrecy, and
ethics. It really gets to the meat of the matter when cavers are involved in
owning and/or managing cave and karst resources.
I appreciate Julie's well thought and timely email that started this thread.
We do need to severely limit any publicity regarding the location of caves
in general and especially those that are either dangerous for the general
public and/or are located in urban areas. Though I'm sure the video in
question
was well intentioned, we do ourselves and the average citizen no service by
advertising the merits and specific location of caves located near cities and
public areas.
At this point I diverge from the sentiment that has been expressed thus far
in this thread; that being the continued uncontrolled access to Airman's
Cave for any and all. I'd love to see the cave continue to be accessible to
both responsible cavers and non-cavers whenever they like, but I see that as
an
increasingly untenable position. Like it or not, more and more people know
about or will find out about Airman's Cave. Traffic will increase as a result
and the inevitable trashing of the cave will occur. A rise in accident and
rescue incidents goes hand-in-hand with the escalation of non-caver
visitation. Whether we like it or not, the cave is a liability to the city of
Austin
which has a responsibility for providing a safe environment within its park
systems, and must either police or take ultimate responsibility and liability
for any incidents that occur there. It is inevitable that the present access
situation will not last forever.
As a good steward to the cave, and a partner in cave management with the
City of Austin, it seems to me that the responsible course of action for
cavers
is to be proactive in managing the cave in manner that :
1.) Protects the cave
2.) Attempts to control the influx of yahoos that will inevitably come and
either get lost or trash the cave, and
3.) Demonstrates to the City of Austin our ability to recognize and promote
safe and responsible cave management practices that are in the best interest
of both the owner and the cave.
To continue to actively promote uncontrolled access to the cave is probably
self-defeating. We will most likely lose both access to the cave and the
trust of the city. Better to face the music and advocate gating the cave,
and
doing so in a way that places the keys within the caving community and thus
still control access. This is not the solution we would like, but some caves
are located in areas that dictate no other viable course of action short of
physically closing the entrance permanently. I'm fairly certain that if a
real caving accident occurred in Airman's that resulted in either a serious
injury or death, that the cave would be sealed for all times.
Jerry Atkinson.
**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry,
While I have not seen the entrance to Airman's I agree that it should be gated
for obvious reasons. The gate on Whirlpool seems to accomplish the security of
the cave and the safety of inexperienced citizens and would be in the best
interests of all parties.
Fritz
________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 4:07 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Airman's Cave Video
Interesting discussion concerning cave access, publicity, secrecy, and ethics.
It really gets to the meat of the matter when cavers are involved in owning
and/or managing cave and karst resources.
I appreciate Julie's well thought and timely email that started this thread. We
do need to severely limit any publicity regarding the location of caves in
general and especially those that are either dangerous for the general public
and/or are located in urban areas. Though I'm sure the video in question was
well intentioned, we do ourselves and the average citizen no service by
advertising the merits and specific location of caves located near cities and
public areas.
At this point I diverge from the sentiment that has been expressed thus far in
this thread; that being the continued uncontrolled access to Airman's Cave for
any and all. I'd love to see the cave continue to be accessible to both
responsible cavers and non-cavers whenever they like, but I see that as an
increasingly untenable position. Like it or not, more and more people know
about or will find out about Airman's Cave. Traffic will increase as a result
and the inevitable trashing of the cave will occur. A rise in accident and
rescue incidents goes hand-in-hand with the escalation of non-caver visitation.
Whether we like it or not, the cave is a liability to the city of Austin which
has a responsibility for providing a safe environment within its park systems,
and must either police or take ultimate responsibility and liability for any
incidents that occur there. It is inevitable that the present access situation
will not last forever.
As a good steward to the cave, and a partner in cave management with the City
of Austin, it seems to me that the responsible course of action for cavers is
to be proactive in managing the cave in manner that :
1.) Protects the cave
2.) Attempts to control the influx of yahoos that will inevitably come and
either get lost or trash the cave, and
3.) Demonstrates to the City of Austin our ability to recognize and promote
safe and responsible cave management practices that are in the best interest of
both the owner and the cave.
To continue to actively promote uncontrolled access to the cave is probably
self-defeating. We will most likely lose both access to the cave and the trust
of the city. Better to face the music and advocate gating the cave, and doing
so in a way that places the keys within the caving community and thus still
control access. This is not the solution we would like, but some caves are
located in areas that dictate no other viable course of action short of
physically closing the entrance permanently. I'm fairly certain that if a real
caving accident occurred in Airman's that resulted in either a serious injury
or death, that the cave would be sealed for all times.
Jerry Atkinson.
________________________________
Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out
WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
calculators<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1209382257x1200540686/aol?redir=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001>.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fritz
I was called a "Republican Wannabe" about a year or so ago for suggesting
the same thing you are here on cavetex, hope they dont start calling you
names too
Nico
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Fritz Holt <[email protected]>wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> While I have not seen the entrance to Airman's I agree that it should be
> gated for obvious reasons. The gate on Whirlpool seems to accomplish the
> security of the cave and the safety of inexperienced citizens and would be
> in the best interests of all parties.
>
> Fritz
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quote:
"I tell you whut ... let's put a gate on this cave and form a save the
cave society."
Some caver dude
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
