texascavers Digest 24 Sep 2008 17:29:03 -0000 Issue 614
Topics (messages 9005 through 9018):
Re: Airman's Cave Video
9005 by: S S
9006 by: Scott Nicholson
9007 by: Don Cooper
9009 by: Sheryl Rieck
9014 by: phendrie.austin.rr.com
Youtube videos
9008 by: Eric Flint
Follow up to Joe Zamecki's You Tube Videos
9010 by: Don Cooper
9013 by: Kevin W Stafford
9018 by: S S
Re: Screening this Thursday
9011 by: mark.alman.l-3com.com
9012 by: Allan Cobb
Airman's
9015 by: Mixon Bill
9016 by: Diana Tomchick
September Oztotl Caver (DFW Grotto newsletter)
9017 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Actually they did a great job with the directions...albiet booring. You'd have
to be a retard to not find the place after watching that video. I'd give it an
A+ for effectivness.
And honestly. These guys havent done anything malicious. If this were a video
about finding enchanted rock nobody would give a shit. Frankly if there were
anywhere that needed less visitation it would be enchanted rock. There is
certainly nothing enchanted about it these days. And while you are gating
Airmans maybe we ought to gate Enchanted rock cave while we are at it. WHich
by the way is located on Enchanted Rock for anyone wondering where the location
of the cave may be. No retard video required.
I guess now the save the enchanted rock cave foundation is going to be all over
my ass. But then the park has a map to the place.
SS
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:38:56 -0500From: [email protected]:
[email protected]: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]: Re: [Texascavers] Airman's Cave Video
FritzI was called a "Republican Wannabe" about a year or so ago for suggesting
the same thing you are here on cavetex, hope they dont start calling you names
tooNico
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Fritz Holt <[email protected]> wrote:
Jerry,
While I have not seen the entrance to Airman's I agree that it should be gated
for obvious reasons. The gate on Whirlpool seems to accomplish the security of
the cave and the safety of inexperienced citizens and would be in the best
interests of all parties.
Fritz
_________________________________________________________________
Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your analogy wherein "the park has a map to the place" would be perfect if the
City of Austin (which owns Airman's Cave) had posted the videos. But, alas,
the City did not. And, in reading these posts, I see no allegation that
posting the videos was malicious. All I see is that the alarm is being sounded
(and prudently so in my humble opinion) that to piss off the owner of the cave
by publicizing the location on YouTube one risks that the owner (the City of
Austin who is legally liable for injury/etc...) will take steps to limit access
to that cave.
Having said that....I enjoyed the videos.....it's been years since I've been in
Airman's and it brought back some cool memories. I've been as far back as
Sherwood Forest twice....and each time was painful and fun.
ciao,
Scott Nicholson
----- Original Message ----
From: S S <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 8:42:36 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Airman's Cave Video
Actually they did a great job with the directions...albiet booring. You'd have
to be a retard to not find the place after watching that video. I'd give it an
A+ for effectivness.
And honestly. These guys havent done anything malicious. If this were a video
about finding enchanted rock nobody would give a shit. Frankly if there were
anywhere that needed less visitation it would be enchanted rock. There is
certainly nothing enchanted about it these days. And while you are gating
Airmans maybe we ought to gate Enchanted rock cave while we are at it. WHich
by the way is located on Enchanted Rock for anyone wondering where the location
of the cave may be. No retard video required.
I guess now the save the enchanted rock cave foundation is going to be all over
my ass. But then the park has a map to the place.
SS
________________________________
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:38:56 -0500
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Airman's Cave Video
Fritz
I was called a "Republican Wannabe" about a year or so ago for suggesting the
same thing you are here on cavetex, hope they dont start calling you names too
Nico
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Fritz Holt <[email protected]> wrote:
Jerry,
While I have not seen the entrance to Airman's I agree that it should be gated
for obvious reasons. The gate on Whirlpool seems to accomplish the security of
the cave and the safety of inexperienced citizens and would be in the best
interests of all parties.
Fritz
________________________________
________________________________
Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It probably sounds like a 'stopgap' solution. But the city would (or
*might*) postpone gating and restriction of Airman's with a nice warning
placard:
"Here be a significant and scary cave. Not recommended for beginners.
No one has died here yet. Don't be the first.
Contact local caving groups (listed here) for preparation and training if
you are not sure what you are doing.
If you have to be rescued you will be charged for being rescued.
This cave is one of last caves unrestricted to the public - if your actions
fuck
that up and we have to put a gate on it, you will be designated a special
case
of nuisance - worse than sex offender - and people will come around to kick
you for the rest of your life."
-WaV
from his laptop, naked, in front of a 73 inch flat panel HDTV
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:01 PM, Scott Nicholson
<[email protected]>wrote:
> Your analogy wherein "the park has a map to the place" would be perfect if
> the City of Austin (which owns Airman's Cave) had posted the videos. But,
> alas, the City did not. And, in reading these posts, I see no allegation
> that posting the videos was malicious. All I see is that the alarm is being
> sounded (and prudently so in my humble opinion) that to piss off the owner
> of the cave by publicizing the location on YouTube one risks that the owner
> (the City of Austin who is legally liable for injury/etc...) will take steps
> to limit access to that cave.
>
> Having said that....I enjoyed the videos.....it's been years since I've
> been in Airman's and it brought back some cool memories. I've been as far
> back as Sherwood Forest twice....and each time was painful and fun.
>
> ciao,
>
> Scott Nicholson
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: S S <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 8:42:36 PM
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Airman's Cave Video
>
> Actually they did a great job with the directions...albiet booring. You'd
> have to be a retard to not find the place after watching that video. I'd
> give it an A+ for effectivness.
>
> And honestly. These guys havent done anything malicious. If this were a
> video about finding enchanted rock nobody would give a shit. Frankly if
> there were anywhere that needed less visitation it would be enchanted
> rock. There is certainly nothing enchanted about it these days. And while
> you are gating Airmans maybe we ought to gate Enchanted rock cave while we
> are at it. WHich by the way is located on Enchanted Rock for anyone
> wondering where the location of the cave may be. No retard video required.
>
>
> I guess now the save the enchanted rock cave foundation is going to be all
> over my ass. But then the park has a map to the place.
>
>
> SS
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:38:56 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> CC: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Airman's Cave Video
>
>
> Fritz
>
> I was called a "Republican Wannabe" about a year or so ago for suggesting
> the same thing you are here on cavetex, hope they dont start calling you
> names too
>
> Nico
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Fritz Holt
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> Jerry,
> While I have not seen the entrance to Airman's I agree that it should be
> gated for obvious reasons. The gate on Whirlpool seems to accomplish the
> security of the cave and the safety of inexperienced citizens and would be
> in the best interests of all parties.
> Fritz
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn
> Now<http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns%21550F681DAD532637%215295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_getmore_092008>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would be happy to pay for a placard like that!
Sheryl
_____
From: Don Cooper [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:57 PM
To: Scott Nicholson
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Airman's Cave Video
It probably sounds like a 'stopgap' solution. But the city would (or
*might*) postpone gating and restriction of Airman's with a nice warning
placard:
"Here be a significant and scary cave. Not recommended for beginners.
No one has died here yet. Don't be the first.
Contact local caving groups (listed here) for preparation and training if
you are not sure what you are doing.
If you have to be rescued you will be charged for being rescued.
This cave is one of last caves unrestricted to the public - if your actions
fuck
that up and we have to put a gate on it, you will be designated a special
case
of nuisance - worse than sex offender - and people will come around to kick
you for the rest of your life."
-WaV
from his laptop, naked, in front of a 73 inch flat panel HDTV
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:01 PM, Scott Nicholson <[email protected]>
wrote:
Your analogy wherein "the park has a map to the place" would be perfect if
the City of Austin (which owns Airman's Cave) had posted the videos. But,
alas, the City did not. And, in reading these posts, I see no allegation
that posting the videos was malicious. All I see is that the alarm is being
sounded (and prudently so in my humble opinion) that to piss off the owner
of the cave by publicizing the location on YouTube one risks that the owner
(the City of Austin who is legally liable for injury/etc...) will take steps
to limit access to that cave.
Having said that....I enjoyed the videos.....it's been years since I've been
in Airman's and it brought back some cool memories. I've been as far back
as Sherwood Forest twice....and each time was painful and fun.
ciao,
Scott Nicholson
----- Original Message ----
From: S S <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 8:42:36 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Airman's Cave Video
Actually they did a great job with the directions...albiet booring. You'd
have to be a retard to not find the place after watching that video. I'd
give it an A+ for effectivness.
And honestly. These guys havent done anything malicious. If this were a
video about finding enchanted rock nobody would give a shit. Frankly if
there were anywhere that needed less visitation it would be enchanted rock.
There is certainly nothing enchanted about it these days. And while you are
gating Airmans maybe we ought to gate Enchanted rock cave while we are at
it. WHich by the way is located on Enchanted Rock for anyone wondering
where the location of the cave may be. No retard video required.
I guess now the save the enchanted rock cave foundation is going to be all
over my ass. But then the park has a map to the place.
SS
_____
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:38:56 -0500
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Airman's Cave Video
Fritz
I was called a "Republican Wannabe" about a year or so ago for suggesting
the same thing you are here on cavetex, hope they dont start calling you
names too
Nico
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Fritz Holt <[email protected]>
wrote:
Jerry,
While I have not seen the entrance to Airman's I agree that it should be
gated for obvious reasons. The gate on Whirlpool seems to accomplish the
security of the cave and the safety of inexperienced citizens and would be
in the best interests of all parties.
Fritz
_____
_____
Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now
<http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns%2
1550F681DAD532637%215295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_getmore_092008>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah -- the videos are gone, so I can't comment on them, except reading the tones
of others!
We take our kids in the cave. Airman's cave is fun. Telling everyone where it
is will probably make it not fun.
When we go to the cave with the little ones, we take our time talking about
cave safety before we go in, our cave equipment, what it is for, why we have
it, we talk about the cave itself, we talk about respecting the cave, we talk
about the damage caused by others and how sad it is (and show evidence when we
see it), and we study a map with a compass. We take our time looking for cave
critters, which would otherwise be missed if you were just going through the
cave "just to do it".
We talk politely to others we meet (usually near the entrance) who don't have
helmets, who don't all have lights (glowsticks maybe), who might drop candy
wrappers, etc. We especially ask them (politely) to remove the glowsticks when
then are finished, to not smoke in the cave, to not bring in candles, and
certainly not to disrurb any bats (that they may have missed anyways).
Getting the kids to find critters, if we are lucky, and having them help with
lighting when taking pictures, gives them a great show-and-tell at school.
Standing in front of their class, pictures in hand, they talk about the cave
experience, how they found small interesting things, and what they have learned
about how caves are special and how we should protect them. There are good
oohs and ahhs when they show pictures of scorpions and spiders.
It's clear that this special hands-on experience (or 'hands-and-knees-on'
experience) is more memorable that just looking at pictures in books, or
walking past the entrance of the cave and not being able to go in, should it
become gated. That would be sad, and some good education would suffer!
Piers Hendrie
Crime Scene Tools
www.UVflashlights.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If enough people flag them they will get pulled off of youtube it takes just
a second to sign up and you can flag away.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Responding perhaps from the negative vibes generated by publicizing Airman's
location, Mr. Z. has apparently pulled his infamous video's from the public
domain. From his YouTube account:
*
I recently posted four videos, some of my best work yet, about Airmen's
Cave. I have decided to make those videos private now, because of the
irrational demands of a handful of DOUCHES in the "Caving Community." That's
right, douches. Every group has 'em. Again, just a handful, in this case.
If you'd really like to know exactly how to find Airmen's Cave, send me a
personal message and I'll consider it.
Overall, I feel it's important for everyone to be able to self-censor, as I
have chosen to do in this case. It's a valuable ability that not enough
people have. To my video fans, sorry folks. More great videos are on the way
though. :o)*
Proud to be a DOUCHE this time -
-WaV
(In French that means "Shower")
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been watching the discussion of this subject and waiting for
someone else to mention the other problem with the video, which was what
I picked up before even thinking about the disclosure of the location of
Airman's Cave.
In the 3rd video, when they are leaving the cave, there is a segment
showing how easily the sediment and altered bedrock could be scraped away
from the wall of the cave. To me, this perpetuates the concept that it
is OK to vandalize caves. Had this been the intentional breaking of
speleothems, the caving public would have been outraged, so it surprises
me that nobody else has commented on this type of video-taped vandalism.
Altered bedrock and cave sediments are just as scientifically valuable as
speleothems.
There is a reason we don't shoot video and distribute it to the general
public when "Cave Cholesterol" must be removed from a passage to continue
pushing a survey lead. When surveying and pushing leads, cave
modification is generally accepted because the scientific value of
further exploration is believed to be offset by the amount of impact done
on the cave. However, destroying wall rock simply to show it on a video
has no real gain and is just as bad as other types of cave vandalism.
especially when it is distributed to the general public.
Just a thought from someone who has recently returned to Texas.
Kevin Stafford
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 08:50:22 -0500 "Don Cooper" <[email protected]>
writes:
Responding perhaps from the negative vibes generated by publicizing
Airman's location, Mr. Z. has apparently pulled his infamous video's from
the public domain. From his YouTube account:
I recently posted four videos, some of my best work yet, about Airmen's
Cave. I have decided to make those videos private now, because of the
irrational demands of a handful of DOUCHES in the "Caving Community."
That's right, douches. Every group has 'em. Again, just a handful, in
this case.
If you'd really like to know exactly how to find Airmen's Cave, send me a
personal message and I'll consider it.
Overall, I feel it's important for everyone to be able to self-censor, as
I have chosen to do in this case. It's a valuable ability that not enough
people have. To my video fans, sorry folks. More great videos are on the
way though. :o)
Proud to be a DOUCHE this time -
-WaV
(In French that means "Shower")
____________________________________________________________
Click here for free info on Graduate Degrees.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nNPPnmRXakniqDehnhbffe8IOjGbTlftEWGNDRAgaUCvufd/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh GOd lets not start blowing this whole thihng out of proportion. Your
contaminating the air I breathe every time you fart. And I can tell you this
email stinks.
No body has said they agreed to posting locations, and no one has said
anything about thinking it was ok to break formations in a cave. If you think
thats vandalizing then you have obviously never discovered a cave. I have done
a lot more than scraping of sediments in a cave. How do you think AIrmans was
even found... the scraping of about 200cuft of sediments.
Will the next post deamonize these guys further by claiming they are
Al-Qaida.... maybe one of them is Bin Laden.
So for all to know... Posting Locations BAD. Dont scrape the sediment.. Dont
feed the bears. And Don't eat yellow snow.
Get it? Got it! Good!
SS
To: [email protected]: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:30:47 -0500From:
[email protected]: Re: [Texascavers] Follow up to Joe Zamecki's You
Tube Videos
I have been watching the discussion of this subject and waiting for someone
else to mention the other problem with the video, which was what I picked up
before even thinking about the disclosure of the location of Airman's Cave.
In the 3rd video, when they are leaving the cave, there is a segment showing
how easily the sediment and altered bedrock could be scraped away from the wall
of the cave. To me, this perpetuates the concept that it is OK to vandalize
caves. Had this been the intentional breaking of speleothems, the caving
public would have been outraged, so it surprises me that nobody else has
commented on this type of video-taped vandalism. Altered bedrock and cave
sediments are just as scientifically valuable as speleothems.
There is a reason we don't shoot video and distribute it to the general public
when "Cave Cholesterol" must be removed from a passage to continue pushing a
survey lead. When surveying and pushing leads, cave modification is generally
accepted because the scientific value of further exploration is believed to be
offset by the amount of impact done on the cave. However, destroying wall rock
simply to show it on a video has no real gain and is just as bad as other types
of cave vandalism. especially when it is distributed to the general public.
Just a thought from someone who has recently returned to Texas.
Kevin Stafford
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 08:50:22 -0500 "Don Cooper" <[email protected]> writes:
Responding perhaps from the negative vibes generated by publicizing Airman's
location, Mr. Z. has apparently pulled his infamous video's from the public
domain. From his YouTube account:I recently posted four videos, some of my
best work yet, about Airmen's Cave. I have decided to make those videos private
now, because of the irrational demands of a handful of DOUCHES in the "Caving
Community." That's right, douches. Every group has 'em. Again, just a handful,
in this case.If you'd really like to know exactly how to find Airmen's Cave,
send me a personal message and I'll consider it.Overall, I feel it's important
for everyone to be able to self-censor, as I have chosen to do in this case.
It's a valuable ability that not enough people have. To my video fans, sorry
folks. More great videos are on the way though. :o)Proud to be a DOUCHE this
time --WaV(In French that means "Shower")
____________________________________________________________ Click here for
free info on Graduate Degrees.
_________________________________________________________________
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, Joe.
Any chance of those of us who live 3.5 hours north of you (in Mesquite)
being able to view this online?
Later,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Datri [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] Screening this Thursday
Hey all,
Last weekend a bunch of cavers got together and entered a film race to
make a movie in 24 hours. We received the theme at 10pm on Friday
night and worked like crazy, non-stop until 10pm on Saturday night.
We completed the film and handed it in at 9:56pm!
A screening is scheduled this Thursday at the Dobie Theater, 7pm.
Everyone is invited to come out and support your fellow cavers. Come
see Gary Franklin, Saj Pierson, Sandi Calhon in their big screen
premiere!
The film was directed by Joe Datri, and made with the help of Geoff
Hoese, Aimee Beveridge, Terry Holsinger, Mike Pugilise, Grace
Borengasser, Wes Schumacher, Saj Pierson, Sandi Calhon, Drew Thompson,
Heather Tucek, Matt Zapitello, Matt Turner, Devra Heyer, Bill Stone,
Gary Franklin, Jordan, Don Cooper and Scott Leach.
Hope to see you there!
-Joe
P.S. Here is more information about the screening.
Austin Film Race 2008 | Screening this Thursday!
The 2008 Diesel Film Racing Tour came to Austin this past weekend for
the 2nd annual Austin Film Race. Teams of filmmakers were challenged
to create an original 4 minute short film in just 24 hours based on
the following assignment:
THEME : An Invitation
SURPRISE ELEMENT : Action - Pouring Something Down a Drain
Come check out the premiere of the films on Thursday starting at
7:00PM at the Dobie Theater (2025 Guadalupe Street) and vote for your
favorites! Tickets are $9 (cash only) and will be sold at the door on
a first come, first serve basis. Please arrive at least 20 minutes
early. For more info, visit
http://www.filmracing.com/Cities/austin.htm
SCREENING LINEUPS:
--------------------------------------------
Thursday, September 25th, 2008 | 7:00PM - 9:00PM
--------------------------------------------
''Uninvited Success'' by Cavers (JOE DATRI)
''L'Invitation Noir'' by Chaos Films (David Morgan)
''Face Space'' by Two Fools With A Camera (Ryan Mitchell)
''Welcome Home Friend'' by Synchronicity (Jack Lee)
''Cardigan'' by Backyard Films Presents (Jeffry Chaffin)
''The Last Overture'' by Crossing Place Studios (Blas Garcia)
''Instead I Got Drunk'' by Corduroy Crayons (Hunter Smith)
''Voice From A Distant Past'' by JetSetProdigy (Timothy Chew)
''My Seducer Myself'' by burning skunks (arthur kendrick)
''Backside Story'' by Clasico Entertainment (Rob Newcomer)
''Somewhere In The Middle'' by Starship Vickers (Joe Tonahill)
''Ignite the Invite'' by StandinUP! (Andrew Nourse)
Film Racing | www.filmracing.com
(c) 2008 NYC Midnight Movie Making Madness, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
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--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps we could arrange a screening of your movie at TCR?
Allan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't mistake me. I know perfectly well that given the current
official doctrines among emergency agencies, the city had no choice
about how it responded at Airman's. The point is that if I were king,
the doctrines would be a lot different, and cavers and taxpayers would
be better off. Plenty of people lobby for sparing no effort and
expense to protect people, even from themselves. Expecting people to
chain their children up in the back seat of the car comes to mind. An
occasional dissenting voice, in addition to those "shit happens"
bumper stickers, can't hurt.
Why does one have to jump through hoops to visit, say, Austin's
Midnight Cave? >>>>>Julie Jenkins and a few others deserve a lot of
credit for keeping those hoops as low as they are<<<<<, but
nevertheless one wonders (or at least _I_ wonder) just why one can't
make a spur-of-the-moment visit to Midnight Cave just for fun when one
can go rappel a cliff on Barton Creek twice as high as Midnight is
deep anytime one wants to without permission from anyone. Two answers
occur to me. One is that is was easy to close off access to Midnight
Cave, whereas closing off the cliffs along Barton Creek would be a lot
more difficult (but I'll bet the safety fussbudgets would if they
could). The second is that some cavers encourage governments to
"manage" all their caves, which of course translates mostly into
managing cavers. From the city of Austin up to the US Department of
the Interior, the idea seems to be that cliffs are inherently open,
whereas caves are inherently closed, except when they are gracious
enough to make an exception. This is partly motivated, at least for
those cavers, by the illogical notion that because some caves need
protection, all caves need protection. Lechuguilla Cave needs
protection. There is nothing anyone can hurt in Austin's Midnight Cave.
We could do worse than the Austin city government's caving policy--the
state government's policy about caving at Devils Sinkhole, for
example. (Those who think it's a wonderful idea to have natural
features in public ownership should think about that.) The UT Grotto
recently got several gung-ho new members because they found out about
Airman's Cave (and its location, of course) on their own, loved it,
and tracked down the grotto. Keep it open. Airman's is warm, dry, and
boy is it horizontal; so are the cavers in it. It would be awfully
hard to hurt oneself seriously. There is little in it that can be
damaged, aside from certain unnatural mud sculptures. At least one
person has _died_ kayaking Barton Creek, and I imagine anyone who
follows such things could tell of some serious climbing accidents or
other falls there over the years. Don't freak out over minor incidents
at Airman's Cave.
An additional note relevant to the fuss about locations. _Anyone_ can
add the exact location of Airman's Cave to Google Earth. Some day
someone will post a list of all the known cave locations in Texas on
the Web. Welcome to the world as it is now. -- Mixon
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On Sep 24, 2008, at 10:51 AM, Mixon Bill wrote:
Why does one have to jump through hoops to visit, say, Austin's
Midnight Cave? >>>>>Julie Jenkins and a few others deserve a lot of
credit for keeping those hoops as low as they are<<<<<, but
nevertheless one wonders (or at least _I_ wonder) just why one can't
make a spur-of-the-moment visit to Midnight Cave just for fun when
one can go rappel a cliff on Barton Creek twice as high as Midnight
is deep anytime one wants to without permission from anyone. Two
answers occur to me. One is that is was easy to close off access to
Midnight Cave, whereas closing off the cliffs along Barton Creek
would be a lot more difficult (but I'll bet the safety fussbudgets
would if they could). The second is that some cavers encourage
governments to "manage" all their caves, which of course translates
mostly into managing cavers. From the city of Austin up to the US
Department of the Interior, the idea seems to be that cliffs are
inherently open, whereas caves are inherently closed, except when
they are gracious enough to make an exception. This is partly
motivated, at least for those cavers, by the illogical notion that
because some caves need protection, all caves need protection.
Lechuguilla Cave needs protection. There is nothing anyone can hurt
in Austin's Midnight Cave.
...except perhaps, themselves. Speaking in generic terms, it's easier
to rescue a person that is hurt on the surface than it is to rescue
someone who is hurt underground. Obviously some caves and cave
passages will be more difficult than others to negotiate with an
injured caver. Having suffered a broken ankle once in a cave
(fortunately for all involved, it was an "easy horizontal cave" and I
crawled out under my own power), perhaps I tend to think about the
relative ease of rescuing someone whenever I take a trip in a cave,
and adjust my thinking about the kinds of risks I'm willing to take
accordingly.
Diana
P.S. I find it interesting that Joe Zamecki thinks that it's only a
handful of people in the caving community that disagree with posting
cave locations on the Internet. I guess he doesn't realize the number
of NSS members out there (as of 2007, the NSS Annual Report lists
"over 12,000 members."). I'd hardly call that a handful.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
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Hi cavers,
The DFW Grotto has now published our newsletter for this month. Our editor,
Diana Tomchick, has done it again, and we've got another issue of which to be
proud.
If you would like a copy e-mailed to you as a pdf attachment, e-mail me
directly and I will send it you.
Cavingly,
Bill Steele
DFW Grotto chairman
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