texascavers Digest 25 Sep 2008 19:19:53 -0000 Issue 615
Topics (messages 9019 through 9035):
Re: Follow up to Joe Zamecki's You Tube Videos
9019 by: Stefan Creaser
9029 by: Kevin W Stafford
Re: Used to be about Airmen's, now about Historic Signatures
9020 by: Diana Tomchick
9021 by: Stefan Creaser
9022 by: Geary Schindel
9023 by: Fritz Holt
Dr. Klimchouk to make 2008 Adventure Series talk at St. Mary's University,
Monday, October 13
9024 by: Geary Schindel
9025 by: Stefan Creaser
9026 by: Geary Schindel
9027 by: Stefan Creaser
Historic Signatures
9028 by: Nancy Weaver
9030 by: John Greer
9031 by: Joe Ranzau
9032 by: Joe Mitchell
graffiti
9033 by: Mixon Bill
9034 by: Diana Tomchick
9035 by: Terry Holsinger
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--- Begin Message ---
He does, supposedly, live in a cave ;-)
________________________________
From: S S [mailto:[email protected]]
Will the next post deamonize these guys further by claiming they are
Al-Qaida.... maybe one of them is Bin Laden.
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--- Begin Message ---
I think the point of my e-mail on "sediment vandalism" was completely
missed.
As I stated, there are certain things that we all do that should not be
video taped and distributed to the general public. And for those that
don't know me and think that I have never caved nor "Ivy-Sized" a virgin
passage, then we obviously cave in different circles. Maybe I just lived
in New Mexico too long!
It is good to be back in Texas,
Kevin Stafford
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:29:03 -0500 S S <[email protected]>
writes:
Oh GOd lets not start blowing this whole thihng out of proportion. Your
contaminating the air I breathe every time you fart. And I can tell you
this email stinks.
No body has said they agreed to posting locations, and no one has said
anything about thinking it was ok to break formations in a cave. If you
think thats vandalizing then you have obviously never discovered a cave.
I have done a lot more than scraping of sediments in a cave. How do you
think AIrmans was even found... the scraping of about 200cuft of
sediments.
Will the next post deamonize these guys further by claiming they are
Al-Qaida.... maybe one of them is Bin Laden.
So for all to know... Posting Locations BAD. Dont scrape the sediment..
Dont feed the bears. And Don't eat yellow snow.
Get it? Got it! Good!
SS
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--- Begin Message ---
Time to generate some interest in a new topic: check out my new web
gallery of Historic Signatures on a cave wall (and even the cave mud!)
of an un-named National Park Service cave. People familiar with caving
history may be able to guess the cave.
The date on the signatures of September 26, 1891 qualifies these
signatures as "historic" rather than graffiti. Note the quaint
spelling of the word "guide."
http://gallery.me.com/drtomchick#100009
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Diana,
How else does one spell "guide"?
On another note, how do we know these signatures are actually from 1891?
What stops someone going into a cave and scrawling, say, 1791 on the
walls?
Cheers,
Stefan
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:[email protected]]
The date on the signatures of September 26, 1891 qualifies these
signatures as "historic" rather than graffiti. Note the quaint
spelling of the word "guide."
http://gallery.me.com/drtomchick#100009
Diana
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--- Begin Message ---
I know that Columbus was quite a caver as I've seen his name spray
painted in a number of caves along with the date of 1492 (which would be
about the right time frame - yeah, I'm a funny guy). I've also seen
George Washington's name in a cave in West Virginia which is probably
authentic as he was surveying property in the area.
I would suspect that most of the signatures in Mammoth Cave, with the
exception of Columbus and Bat Man, are probably authentic and can be
traced back to real people who were tourists, or actively exploring or
working in the cave. There are a number of locations where you can see
Stephen Bishops name in Mammoth Cave.
Geary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll bet that if we looked hard enough we could find that "KILROY WAS HERE".
-----Original Message-----
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 2:29 PM
To: Stefan Creaser; Diana Tomchick; Cave Tex
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Used to be about Airmen's, now about Historic
Signatures
I know that Columbus was quite a caver as I've seen his name spray
painted in a number of caves along with the date of 1492 (which would be
about the right time frame - yeah, I'm a funny guy). I've also seen
George Washington's name in a cave in West Virginia which is probably
authentic as he was surveying property in the area.
I would suspect that most of the signatures in Mammoth Cave, with the
exception of Columbus and Bat Man, are probably authentic and can be
traced back to real people who were tourists, or actively exploring or
working in the cave. There are a number of locations where you can see
Stephen Bishops name in Mammoth Cave.
Geary
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--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
I wanted to announce that Dr. Alexander Klimchouk is scheduled to make
the Venture Crew 410 - 2008 Adventure Series presentation at St. Mary's
University on Monday, October 13, 2008. This is a presentation that has
been organized as a service program for scouting and the public and is
sponsored by Venture Crew 410 along with St. Mary's University, Texas
Cave Management Association, the Edwards Aquifer Authority, and the
Bexar Grotto of the National Speleological Society. Dr. Alexander
Klimchouk, Director of the Ukrainian Institute of Speleology and
Karstology, will make a presentation titled "In a Search for the Deepest
Cave on Earth: The Blend of Exploration, Adventure, and Science. There
will be a reception and open house at 6 PM at St. Mary's University and
the presentation will begin at 7 PM.
This is a free presentation and the public is welcome. However, because
of limited seating, we do require reservations which can be sent to
Aspen Schindel ([email protected]) or Geary Schindel at
[email protected] or by calling 210-479-2151. If you would
like a copy of the two page email flyer announcing the location and
describing the talk in more detail, please feel free to email me.
Dr. Klimchouk has won numerous awards and has been featured in National
Geographic Magazine. He will be discussing his expeditions to the
country of Georgia to systemically search and discover the deepest cave
in the world. He will be making a similar presentation as the Subaru
Keynote Speaker at the 2008 Geological Society of America meeting being
held in Houston in October.
Dr. Klimchouk will also be at the Texas Cavers Reunion.
Thanks,
Geary Schindel
210-326-1576 cell
210-427-2151 home
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would he like to practice his presentation sometime over the TCR
weekend? ;-)
________________________________
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Dr. Klimchouk will also be at the Texas Cavers Reunion.
Thanks,
Geary Schindel
210-326-1576 cell
210-427-2151 home
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IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
medium. Thank you.
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--- Begin Message ---
If we can find him a projector and screen and something that would rival
the national drink of Ukraine, he might be talked into it.
Geary
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 3:10 PM
To: Geary Schindel; Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Dr. Klimchouk to make 2008 Adventure Series
talk at St. Mary's University, Monday, October 13
Would he like to practice his presentation sometime over the TCR
weekend? ;-)
________________________________
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Dr. Klimchouk will also be at the Texas Cavers Reunion.
Thanks,
Geary Schindel
210-326-1576 cell
210-427-2151 home
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IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy
the information in any medium. Thank you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Horilka: http://www.wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20052/156
Some of that Mescal i had on the friday night last year should suffice -
it had the same effect but was nice to drink, however. The next morning
at 3am wasn't quite so pleasant...
________________________________
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 3:15 PM
To: Stefan Creaser; Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Dr. Klimchouk to make 2008 Adventure Series
talk at St. Mary's University, Monday, October 13
If we can find him a projector and screen and something that would rival
the national drink of Ukraine, he might be talked into it.
Geary
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 3:10 PM
To: Geary Schindel; Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Dr. Klimchouk to make 2008 Adventure Series
talk at St. Mary's University, Monday, October 13
Would he like to practice his presentation sometime over the TCR
weekend? ;-)
________________________________
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Dr. Klimchouk will also be at the Texas Cavers Reunion.
Thanks,
Geary Schindel
210-326-1576 cell
210-427-2151 home
--
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy
the information in any medium. Thank you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The date on the signatures of September 26, 1891 qualifies these
signatures as "historic" rather than graffiti. Note the quaint
spelling of the word "guide."
well you are lucky there werent any graffiti zealots around at the
time to clean up these signatures so that you get to enjoy them now.
Nancy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So-called graffiti changes through time relative to a whole host of cultural
values and customs. As several of us (probably including Ron) have recorded,
it can be used to show a whole host of social (and personal) relationships
and attitudes that relate to what was going on at the time, worldwide or
strictly local. Kinds, applications, and especially subjects of graffiti are
not at all static and change constantly. It's not just the historic content
(recording of an old event or person) that may be important -- or even just
historically interesting to later visitors, perhaps (hopefully) another
hundred years into the future.
In reply to some of the comments: On the matter of identifying authenticity,
and even which century an inscription belongs, it is often necessary to use
one's brain -- that is, it may be necessary to think. One can use character
of the inscription, manner of application, style of letters, subject,
condition, and a whole host of other things. On dates, however, an inscribed
date can (and does) refer to any number of things -- time of visit, birth
date, graduation date, date of first sex (usually with a particular person),
date of some special event (such as sports championship). And some
inscriptions (particularly by Boy Scouts and persons with limited gray
matter) are clearly fakes, jokes, or are meant intentionally to deceive.
There are hundreds of examples of destruction of important historic
information by federal and state agencies (and not just in the US --
remember the French Boy Scouts who scrubbed all the 15,000 year old
paintings off the ceiling), but suffice it to say that if so-called graffiti
is to be removed, it should be fully, carefully, and intensively recorded
(including precise location, position, aspect, and association) -- and those
records should be placed into permanent archeological (or caving) curation
facilities. That certainly will not be viewed in the future as the best
preservation policy, but since systematic destruction of historic values is
now a way of life in the US (and growing worldwide), it's about the best we
can do.
John Greer
----- Original Message -----
From: Nancy Weaver
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 3:07 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Historic Signatures
>
>
>The date on the signatures of September 26, 1891 qualifies these
>signatures as "historic" rather than graffiti. Note the quaint
>spelling of the word "guide."
>
well you are lucky there werent any graffiti zealots around at the
time to clean up these signatures so that you get to enjoy them now.
Nancy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whew, everyone's a bit touchy today... Personally, I blame the Republicans!
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Nancy Weaver <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> The date on the signatures of September 26, 1891 qualifies these
>> signatures as "historic" rather than graffiti. Note the quaint spelling of
>> the word "guide."
>>
>> well you are lucky there werent any graffiti zealots around at the time
> to clean up these signatures so that you get to enjoy them now.
>
> Nancy
>
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>
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There are several documented historical signatures in Robber Baron.
In one case, they were stationed at a nearby army base so the records
could be located. You can tell which ones are likely authentic since
the writing is usually much neater than later graffiti!
Example in Robber Baron from 1918:
http://www.tcmacaves.org/robberbaron/images/RB_1918_s.jpg
Joe Mitchell
On Sep 24, 2008, at 4:40 PM, John Greer wrote:
So-called graffiti changes through time relative to a whole host of
cultural values and customs. As several of us (probably including
Ron) have recorded, it can be used to show a whole host of social
(and personal) relationships and attitudes that relate to what was
going on at the time, worldwide or strictly local. Kinds,
applications, and especially subjects of graffiti are not at all
static and change constantly. It's not just the historic content
(recording of an old event or person) that may be important -- or
even just historically interesting to later visitors, perhaps
(hopefully) another hundred years into the future.
In reply to some of the comments: On the matter of identifying
authenticity, and even which century an inscription belongs, it is
often necessary to use one's brain -- that is, it may be necessary
to think. One can use character of the inscription, manner of
application, style of letters, subject, condition, and a whole host
of other things. On dates, however, an inscribed date can (and
does) refer to any number of things -- time of visit, birth date,
graduation date, date of first sex (usually with a particular
person), date of some special event (such as sports championship).
And some inscriptions (particularly by Boy Scouts and persons with
limited gray matter) are clearly fakes, jokes, or are meant
intentionally to deceive.
There are hundreds of examples of destruction of important historic
information by federal and state agencies (and not just in the US
-- remember the French Boy Scouts who scrubbed all the 15,000 year
old paintings off the ceiling), but suffice it to say that if so-
called graffiti is to be removed, it should be fully, carefully,
and intensively recorded (including precise location, position,
aspect, and association) -- and those records should be placed into
permanent archeological (or caving) curation facilities. That
certainly will not be viewed in the future as the best preservation
policy, but since systematic destruction of historic values is now
a way of life in the US (and growing worldwide), it's about the
best we can do.
John Greer
----- Original Message -----
From: Nancy Weaver
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 3:07 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Historic Signatures
>
>
>The date on the signatures of September 26, 1891 qualifies these
>signatures as "historic" rather than graffiti. Note the quaint
>spelling of the word "guide."
>
well you are lucky there werent any graffiti zealots around at the
time to clean up these signatures so that you get to enjoy them now.
Nancy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now there's another subject on which I am willing to be in the vocal
minority. Those are graffiti, 1891 or not. I say give the history
buffs 30 days to photograph them, then have a restoration trip. Of
course, since it's US property, this won't happen. How come historians
have so much more pull than cavers do? Probably just because more of
them get paid as professors, etc.. (I've never bought into the notion
that professional archaeologists and museums have any special claim to
ancient artifacts, either.)
-- Mixon
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But then you would deny future cavers the thrill of re-discovering the
signatures. Although I love to survey, I have to admit that the
discovery of those signatures was a highlight of that particular trip.
One of the other people on the survey crew had seen many of these
historic signatures in this cave, and still was awed that the
signatures in the mud had survived for so long. They looked as if they
had been scrawled in the mud yesterday. It was a real testament to how
stable the cave environment can be (in select places).
Diana
On Sep 25, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:
Now there's another subject on which I am willing to be in the vocal
minority. Those are graffiti, 1891 or not. I say give the history
buffs 30 days to photograph them, then have a restoration trip. Of
course, since it's US property, this won't happen. How come
historians have so much more pull than cavers do? Probably just
because more of them get paid as professors, etc.. (I've never
bought into the notion that professional archaeologists and museums
have any special claim to ancient artifacts, either.)
-- Mixon
----------------------------------------------
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came from, but for long-term use, save:
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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Diana,
That same logic can be applied to "contemporary" signatures.
I believe this is part of the point that Mixon is making, and I agree
with for the most part.
I have been at graffitti cleanups that used the 50 year rule, and they
removed three generations of family signatures leaving only the oldest
(fourth generation) there by reducing the "value" of that one siganture.
That one, and all the others, should have been removed as well
regardless of it's age, as most of it's value was in the context of the
local family visiting this "sacrifice" cave. Graffiti removal is mostly
just an aesthetic reaction to someone else's aesthetic values. It is a
slippery slope when one places ones own values onto others.
Terry H.
Diana Tomchick wrote:
But then you would deny future cavers the thrill of re-discovering the
signatures. Although I love to survey, I have to admit that the
discovery of those signatures was a highlight of that particular trip.
One of the other people on the survey crew had seen many of these
historic signatures in this cave, and still was awed that the signatures
in the mud had survived for so long. They looked as if they had been
scrawled in the mud yesterday. It was a real testament to how stable the
cave environment can be (in select places).
Diana
On Sep 25, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:
Now there's another subject on which I am willing to be in the vocal
minority. Those are graffiti, 1891 or not. I say give the history
buffs 30 days to photograph them, then have a restoration trip. Of
course, since it's US property, this won't happen. How come historians
have so much more pull than cavers do? Probably just because more of
them get paid as professors, etc.. (I've never bought into the notion
that professional archaeologists and museums have any special claim to
ancient artifacts, either.)
-- Mixon
----------------------------------------------
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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
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