texascavers Digest 26 Sep 2008 19:06:49 -0000 Issue 617
Topics (messages 9047 through 9052):
Re: Texas Cavers Reunion
9047 by: Butch Fralia
Re: Dangers of cave tubing in Belize :
9048 by: Thomas Sitch
Re: Not caving related
9049 by: Nancy Weaver
Re: Powder Horn and Caving
9050 by: Geary Schindel
9051 by: mark.alman.l-3com.com
9052 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Can we come down on Thursday?
Butch
-----Original Message-----
From: Allan Cobb [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Texas Cavers Reunion
> The terms of our contract state that we need to be out of the park by 4 PM
> on Thursday.
Oops, that should read that we need to be out by 4 PM on Sunday!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Given the number of people who tube through Caves Branch, it's probably
statistically safer than all roller coasters and probably the freeway too. It
was certainly sedate and pleasant when I was there.
The failure here seems to be running the trip when the river was in a dangerous
state... not enough respect for mother nature.
~~Thomas
--- On Thu, 9/25/08, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [Texascavers] Dangers of cave tubing in Belize :
To: [email protected]
List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2008, 11:24 PM
The Dangers of Cave Tubing in Belize
A 52-year-old woman on a Carnival cruise drowned yesterday while on a shore
excursion in Belize. She was tubing on the Caves Branch River—in what some say
were questionable conditions—when, according to one account, she was swept
under a rock. Reports USA Today: “A local news station in Belize, Channel 7
News, reports that most local tour companies that operate on the Caves Branch
River had canceled their trips Wednesday due to poor conditions.” Obviously,
her trip wasn’t canceled.
Her husband, who was with her at the time, offered a chilling account to the
country’s Channel 5 News. They were screaming for help when they were sucked
under, he said, adding:
“I don’t remember anything because I think we flip upside down. Somebody was
watching my wife and I and it was just second and we keep going down, down,
down and you can tell the water pressure is pushing us inside the cave. I kind
of panicked and I am trying to keep my mouth shut to keep little air, trying to
find my way. I was trying t o find where to go. It took maybe twenty seconds,
fifteen seconds and I was like no more air. I said, I am dying right here.”
Carnival says it has suspended the excursion offering and is investigating.
http://www.worldhum.com/weblog/item/the_dangers_of_cave_tubing_in_belize_20080925/
Carnival passenger drowns on Belize cave tubing tour
A Carnival passenger drowned Wednesday in Belize while on a shore excursion
booked through the line.
Carnival has not released the name of the passenger, who had arrived in Belize
on the Carnival Glory, but the line says it was a 52-year-old woman who was
traveling with her husband.
The couple had signed up for a cave tubing tour on Belize's Caves Branch River
-- a popular pasttime for cruisers who visit the country.
"The individual was traveling with her spouse who remained in Belize and is
currently being accompanied and assisted by a shipboard staff member," the line
says in a statement this morning to USA TODAY. "Carnival CareTeam personnel are
scheduled to arrive in Belize today."
Carnival says it has suspended all future sales of its cave tubing excursion in
Belize, and an investigation into the accident is underway.
A local news station in Belize, Channel 7 News, reports that most local tour
companies that operate on the Caves Branch River had canceled their trips
Wednesday due to poor conditions.
"Those who work in the area say the Caves Branch River was too high and that’s
why most tours were cancelled," the news outlet notes. "But one wasn’t and
witnesses say around 10:30 they heard screams."
The station cited the currents on the river. "Those currents swept (the woman)
under a rock where she drowned," the news outlet reported. "They attempted CPR
but she was already dead."
The 2,974-passenger Carnival Glory departed from Port Canaveral, Fla., on Sept.
20 on a seven-day Western Caribbean cruise and is scheduled to return to
Florida on Saturday.
"Carnival extends its deepest sympathy to the victim’s family and loved ones
during this difficult time and will continue to offer our full assistance and
support," the line says in its statement.
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/cruises/item.aspx?type=blog&ak=56115982.blog
Find phone numbers fast with the New AOL Yellow Pages!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ron - you will likely provoke a firestorm with this - of the wrong
sort, so let me hurry to thank you for posting it. This is probably
the most important crossroads for the US, whether we let go of all
other concerns (like how old graffitti is) and pay attention to the
massive theft of our constitution, bill of rights and, economy and
right to life liberty and the pursuit of happpiness. For anyone who
has ever wondered how on earth decent Germans could have allowed the
debacle of the 30's and 40's to occur - you may wish to recall the
words
For evil to flourish, it is only necessary for good people to do nothing
Nancy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
Eric Holman is running a Venture Scout Leader Program called Powder
Horn. Venture Scouts is a coed BSA program for young adults aged 14 to
21 and replaced the old BSA Explorer Program. Powder Horn is a National
Scout program to introduce new Venture Scout leaders to various
activities such as caving, climbing, kayaking, canoeing, mountain
biking, backpacking, shooting, bear and alligator wrestling, etc. It
runs for 6 days total over two weekends and includes a Friday, Saturday,
and Sunday. The intent is not to make experts out of these folks in a
particular activity but to introduce them to the activity and give them
an idea of what's involved, safety requirements, how to find competent
experts and resources to assist their programs, etc. It is an excellent
program and has been very successful.
They have asked if anyone is available to give four - one hour programs
on caving on Friday morning, Oct 3 at Bear Creek Scout Ranch near
Kerrville, Texas. They have a total of 60 people in the class mostly
from the central Texas area. I think they break up into 4 fifteen
person groups that run concurrently for presentations. This helps to
reduce the group size down to something manageable. They asked if I
would be available to make a presentation on caving on that Friday
morning but I'm tied up. They would like to have a powerpoint
presentation covering cave safety, ethics, cave conservation, and go
over the caving portion of the guide to safe scouting, etc. This would
probably include a gear show and tell, question and answer session, etc.
It is a good group of folks for a presentation as they are always an
interested and enthusiastic crowd. It's also a great way to find free
labor for your favorite cave conservation project. For example, Venture
Crew 410 out of San Antonio (of which Eric and I have been involved
with) has done an incredible amount of work at Deep and Punkin Preserve
including building all but one of the bunks in the cabin, helping clean
out the raccoon carp and reinsulated in the attic, building the east
trail from the cabin to Deep Cave and the trail from Punkin Cave to Deep
Cave, building the wildlife watering trough, and probably 70 percent of
the work on the new outhouse including pouring the concrete slab.
Scouts have also done a number of projects at Robber Baron Cave and
Bracken Bat Cave. The reputation of scouting has changed from being
part of the conservation problem to being a part of the solution and a
strong tool for protection, education, and conservation of caves.
Anyway, if you are interested and available to make a presentation, they
would be very appreciative. Please email me back directly if you can
help and I'll forward you Eric's contact information. Also, the ability
to speak good is not a requirement if you have lots of pretty pictures,
some cool equipment, and do lots of arm waiving.
Thanks,
Geary Schindel
210-479-2151 home
210-326-1576 cell
----- Original Message -----
From: Nathan Williams <mailto:[email protected]>
To: 'Geary Schindel' <mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:54 AM
Subject: Powder Horn and Caving
Geary,
Would you be available to come out Friday Oct 3 to Bear Creek to
discuss caving with the folks at Powder Horn.
We'd need you in the morning and you'd do 4 hour long sessions.
You could even do them at the Bear Creek cave if you wanted, but It
might be better to do a power point etc with photos.
Eric may have already chatted with you about this.
-Nathan
Nathan Williams
[email protected]
http://www.nehwilliams.com/
nehwilliams (skype - www.skype.com <http://www.skype.com/> )
210.757.4699 (phone)
210.275.6111 (cell)
512.366.9936 (fax)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for posting this, Geary.
There's also a need for someone to do this at a Powder Horn training session on
Sunday morning, October 12th (yes, TCR weekend) at Clements Scout Ranch in
Athens, TX.
I posted this a couple of weeks ago and received no response.
I would do it, but, I'll be at TCR and the TSA meetings Sunday AM.
C'mon folks! Help Geary and me out.
If you're not going to TCR, let's get these leaders and young folks educated on
the value and correct way to go caving. Otherwise, we'll be rescuing these
folks (see the Airman's discussion), facing closed and damaged caves, and
declining Grotto membership.
I know that there's a LOT of folks in the DFW area that don't go to TCR (and I
know who you are!), so let's see some of y'all step up.
Thanks!
Mark Alman
________________________________
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Fri 9/26/2008 9:49 AM
To: Texas Cavers
Cc: Geary Schindel
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Powder Horn and Caving
Folks,
Eric Holman is running a Venture Scout Leader Program called Powder Horn.
Venture Scouts is a coed BSA program for young adults aged 14 to 21 and
replaced the old BSA Explorer Program. Powder Horn is a National Scout program
to introduce new Venture Scout leaders to various activities such as caving,
climbing, kayaking, canoeing, mountain biking, backpacking, shooting, bear and
alligator wrestling, etc. It runs for 6 days total over two weekends and
includes a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. The intent is not to make experts out
of these folks in a particular activity but to introduce them to the activity
and give them an idea of what's involved, safety requirements, how to find
competent experts and resources to assist their programs, etc. It is an
excellent program and has been very successful.
They have asked if anyone is available to give four - one hour programs on
caving on Friday morning, Oct 3 at Bear Creek Scout Ranch near Kerrville,
Texas. They have a total of 60 people in the class mostly from the central
Texas area. I think they break up into 4 fifteen person groups that run
concurrently for presentations. This helps to reduce the group size down to
something manageable. They asked if I would be available to make a
presentation on caving on that Friday morning but I'm tied up. They would like
to have a powerpoint presentation covering cave safety, ethics, cave
conservation, and go over the caving portion of the guide to safe scouting,
etc. This would probably include a gear show and tell, question and answer
session, etc.
It is a good group of folks for a presentation as they are always an interested
and enthusiastic crowd. It's also a great way to find free labor for your
favorite cave conservation project. For example, Venture Crew 410 out of San
Antonio (of which Eric and I have been involved with) has done an incredible
amount of work at Deep and Punkin Preserve including building all but one of
the bunks in the cabin, helping clean out the raccoon carp and reinsulated in
the attic, building the east trail from the cabin to Deep Cave and the trail
from Punkin Cave to Deep Cave, building the wildlife watering trough, and
probably 70 percent of the work on the new outhouse including pouring the
concrete slab. Scouts have also done a number of projects at Robber Baron Cave
and Bracken Bat Cave. The reputation of scouting has changed from being part
of the conservation problem to being a part of the solution and a strong tool
for protection, education, and conservation of caves.
Anyway, if you are interested and available to make a presentation, they would
be very appreciative. Please email me back directly if you can help and I'll
forward you Eric's contact information. Also, the ability to speak good is not
a requirement if you have lots of pretty pictures, some cool equipment, and do
lots of arm waiving.
Thanks,
Geary Schindel
210-479-2151 home
210-326-1576 cell
----- Original Message -----
From: Nathan Williams <mailto:[email protected]>
To: 'Geary Schindel' <mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:54 AM
Subject: Powder Horn and Caving
Geary,
Would you be available to come out Friday Oct 3 to Bear Creek to
discuss caving with the folks at Powder Horn.
We'd need you in the morning and you'd do 4 hour long sessions. You
could even do them at the Bear Creek cave if you wanted, but It might be better
to do a power point etc with photos.
Eric may have already chatted with you about this.
-Nathan
Nathan Williams
[email protected]
http://www.nehwilliams.com/
nehwilliams (skype - www.skype.com <http://www.skype.com/> )
210.757.4699 (phone)
210.275.6111 (cell)
512.366.9936 (fax)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The DFW Grotto is approached fairly often by Scout groups to be taken caving. I
don't know of any members who are interested in doing this very often. I
organize one trip per year for Venture Scouts (14 years of age and older) and
have done so for many years.
What we do send to inquiring Scout groups is the following information:
Caving Opportunities for Metroplex Scout Groups
The Boy Scouts of America publishes a statement of their caving policy and
guidelines, which can be found on the NSS Website (http://www.caves.org/) as a
PDF file. The guidelines list 35 numbered points, the first of which states
the following:
1. All caving, other than simple novice activities, should be limited to adults
and young people 14 and over – members of Venture Crews or Learning for Life
posts, and older Scouts in troops and teams. “Simple novice activities” means
commercially operated cave excursions.
The following are suggested caving activities for Boy Scout troops or teams and
Venture crews from the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex:
• Colorado Bend State Park, Texas – 3 hour drive from the Metroplex – guided
wild caving trip
• Longhorn Caverns State Park, Texas – 3 hour drive from the Metroplex –
guided wild caving trip
• Inner Space Cavern, Georgetown, Texas - 3 hour drive from the Metroplex –
guided wild caving trip by arrangement
• Enchanted Rock Cave, Enchanted Rock Natural Area - near Fredericksburg,
Texas – 4 hour drive from the Metroplex – self-led trips. Easy cave. Map
available at park office upon request.
• Natural Bridge Cavern – 5 hour drive from the Metroplex – guided wild caving
trip
• Old Spanish Treasure Cave, Arkansas - 5 hour drive from the Metroplex –
guided wild caving trip – camping in the cave.
• Kickapoo Cavern State Park, Texas - 7 hour drive from the Metroplex – guided
wild caving trip
• Alabaster Caverns State Park, Oklahoma - 7 hour drive from the Metroplex –
guided wild caving trip
• Carlsbad Caverns National Park, New Mexico – 8 hour drive from the Metroplex
– guided wild caving trip.
For a super activity, perhaps over a weeklong camping and touring occasion, or
a four day weekend, a trip to Bustamante, Nuevo Leon, Mexico (about 80 miles
south of Laredo, Texas), is a wonderful place to take a Scout troop or Venture
crew. The cave is much like Carlsbad Caverns. There is good camping in the
Bustamante Canyon behind the town. The people are friendly, and the mountains
are beautiful to behold.
http://www.showcaves.com/english/mx/showcaves/Bustamante.html
Caving gear: http://www.4bobandbob.com/
Bill Steele
DFW Grotto chairman
---- [email protected] wrote:
> Thanks for posting this, Geary.
>
> There's also a need for someone to do this at a Powder Horn training session
> on Sunday morning, October 12th (yes, TCR weekend) at Clements Scout Ranch in
> Athens, TX.
>
> I posted this a couple of weeks ago and received no response.
>
> I would do it, but, I'll be at TCR and the TSA meetings Sunday AM.
>
> C'mon folks! Help Geary and me out.
>
> If you're not going to TCR, let's get these leaders and young folks educated
> on the value and correct way to go caving. Otherwise, we'll be rescuing these
> folks (see the Airman's discussion), facing closed and damaged caves, and
> declining Grotto membership.
>
>
> I know that there's a LOT of folks in the DFW area that don't go to TCR (and
> I know who you are!), so let's see some of y'all step up.
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark Alman
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Geary Schindel [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Fri 9/26/2008 9:49 AM
> To: Texas Cavers
> Cc: Geary Schindel
> Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Powder Horn and Caving
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> Eric Holman is running a Venture Scout Leader Program called Powder Horn.
> Venture Scouts is a coed BSA program for young adults aged 14 to 21 and
> replaced the old BSA Explorer Program. Powder Horn is a National Scout
> program to introduce new Venture Scout leaders to various activities such as
> caving, climbing, kayaking, canoeing, mountain biking, backpacking, shooting,
> bear and alligator wrestling, etc. It runs for 6 days total over two
> weekends and includes a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. The intent is not to
> make experts out of these folks in a particular activity but to introduce
> them to the activity and give them an idea of what's involved, safety
> requirements, how to find competent experts and resources to assist their
> programs, etc. It is an excellent program and has been very successful.
>
>
>
> They have asked if anyone is available to give four - one hour programs on
> caving on Friday morning, Oct 3 at Bear Creek Scout Ranch near Kerrville,
> Texas. They have a total of 60 people in the class mostly from the
> central Texas area. I think they break up into 4 fifteen person groups that
> run concurrently for presentations. This helps to reduce the group size down
> to something manageable. They asked if I would be available to make a
> presentation on caving on that Friday morning but I'm tied up. They would
> like to have a powerpoint presentation covering cave safety, ethics, cave
> conservation, and go over the caving portion of the guide to safe scouting,
> etc. This would probably include a gear show and tell, question and answer
> session, etc.
>
>
>
> It is a good group of folks for a presentation as they are always an
> interested and enthusiastic crowd. It's also a great way to find free labor
> for your favorite cave conservation project. For example, Venture Crew 410
> out of San Antonio (of which Eric and I have been involved with) has done an
> incredible amount of work at Deep and Punkin Preserve including building all
> but one of the bunks in the cabin, helping clean out the raccoon carp and
> reinsulated in the attic, building the east trail from the cabin to Deep Cave
> and the trail from Punkin Cave to Deep Cave, building the wildlife watering
> trough, and probably 70 percent of the work on the new outhouse including
> pouring the concrete slab. Scouts have also done a number of projects at
> Robber Baron Cave and Bracken Bat Cave. The reputation of scouting has
> changed from being part of the conservation problem to being a part of the
> solution and a strong tool for protection, education, and conservation of
> caves.
>
>
>
> Anyway, if you are interested and available to make a presentation, they
> would be very appreciative. Please email me back directly if you can help
> and I'll forward you Eric's contact information. Also, the ability to speak
> good is not a requirement if you have lots of pretty pictures, some cool
> equipment, and do lots of arm waiving.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Geary Schindel
>
> 210-479-2151 home
>
> 210-326-1576 cell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Nathan Williams <mailto:[email protected]>
>
> To: 'Geary Schindel' <mailto:[email protected]>
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:54 AM
>
> Subject: Powder Horn and Caving
>
>
>
> Geary,
>
>
>
> Would you be available to come out Friday Oct 3 to Bear Creek to
> discuss caving with the folks at Powder Horn.
>
>
>
> We'd need you in the morning and you'd do 4 hour long sessions. You
> could even do them at the Bear Creek cave if you wanted, but It might be
> better to do a power point etc with photos.
>
>
>
> Eric may have already chatted with you about this.
>
>
>
> -Nathan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nathan Williams
> [email protected]
> http://www.nehwilliams.com/
> nehwilliams (skype - www.skype.com <http://www.skype.com/> )
> 210.757.4699 (phone)
> 210.275.6111 (cell)
> 512.366.9936 (fax)
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
