texascavers Digest 1 Oct 2008 14:18:41 -0000 Issue 620

Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:18:56 -0700 (PDT) 

texascavers Digest 1 Oct 2008 14:18:41 -0000 Issue 620

Topics (messages 9076 through 9099):

Re: Cave photo
        9076 by: caverchad.maverickgrotto.org
        9079 by: Kevin McGowan
        9080 by: Charles Goldsmith
        9081 by: Stefan Creaser
        9083 by: TM Raines
        9093 by: Diana Tomchick
        9099 by: Ed Goff

Re: Anachronistic graffiti
        9077 by: Ted Samsel
        9082 by: Minton, Mark
        9084 by: Ted Samsel

Turner Falls Davis, OK?
        9078 by: Matt Turner

photo
        9085 by: Nancy Weaver
        9086 by: Nico Escamilla
        9087 by: Joe Ranzau
        9088 by: Brian Riordan
        9089 by: Stefan Creaser
        9090 by: Don Cooper

Into the Unknown tonight
        9091 by: Lee H. Skinner

Re: photo 2
        9092 by: Gill Ediger

Astronomy Picture of the Day
        9094 by: Robert Tait
        9096 by: Robert Tait
        9097 by: Joe Ranzau

Another interesting astronomy photo
        9095 by: Grace Borengasser

Blue Grotto Springs
        9098 by: Mike Flannigan

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--- Begin Message --- 
It does say that the cave interior was lit by flashlight during the long
exposure.  With a few practice shots, you could easily adjust how much
light the interior got by low long you kept the flashlight on.  The rest
of the time, the interior of the cave would be totally dark and not be a
factor.

I'm guessing he took 20 bad ones to get this one good one.

--CF


>
> The picture explanation states " Pictured above is single exposure image".
>  I clicked on the "pictured above" link and it took me to:
>
> http://www.twanight.org/newTWAN/photos.asp?ID=3001638
>
> This has more story from Wally about taking the photo.
>
> It's got to be a SENSITIVE camera/sensor.
>
> Can you say "image stabilization"??
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:14:31 -0500From: [email protected]:
> [email protected]: Re: [Texascavers] Cave photoCC:
> [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
> I'd think the same - Both the interior and exterior could be done from one
> exposure - but not the SAME exposure. Or at least one adjusted to the
> other.  OR DARN sensitive filim!-WaV
> On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Charles Goldsmith <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> From talking to someone here at work that does a lot ofastro-photography,
> he said that Milky Way image is easily less than aminute exposure, given
> really dark skies.However, he also states that the cave image was probably
> overlaid froma 2nd exposure, otherwise you would likely have some
> movementindication from inside the cave.Either way, its a beautiful
> picture.Charles
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Frank Binney <[email protected]>
> wrote:> Hey Bob--> Cool photo....but I wonder if photo shop was involved.
> If you took an> exposure long enough to get that type of detail in the
> Milky Way, wouldn't> you get star streaks from the Earth's rotation during
> the long exposure> time? Any astro experts out there with an opinion? Or
> half-astro experts?> Frank>>> On 9/29/08 10:20 AM, "Bob West"
> <[email protected]> wrote:>> Cave photo of the day from the 'astronomy
> picture of the day' site....>>
> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html>> Very nice!>>>> Bob>>
> ________________________________> Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and
> your mobile phone with Windows> Live. See Now
> <http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------Visit
> our website: http://texascavers.comTo unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [email protected] additional commands, e-mail:
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> See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of
> your life.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I agree with Frank,
 
I find it impossible to shoot that image unless as Bob said it was an
incredibly sensitive sensor.  
 
Typically astronomy photography takes hours of exposure even with super
sensitive film or sensors.  With the rotation of the earth the sky will move
since either the stars or the cave need to be still but both can't.
Telescopes track stars and planets and move with them. That blurs any earth
bound features.  If you lock down on an earth bound feature then the stars
and planets blur. What I find most curious is there's color in his sky.  I
didn't know you could get color unless you exposed for quite a long time and
with no atmospheric interference. That's Hubble Telescope stuff, I thought. 

He mentioned the canyons being lit by a crescent moon. I've been star
watching many times and even a crescent moon gives a LOT of light when
trying to take deep space photography. 

Also, this shot looks retouched to me. The features are soft on the horizon
but where the sky and land touch the line is very a very sharp edge.  
 
I've been working with Photoshop for over a decade. Textures have to match
as well as the over all feel of the image. And this image doesn't have the
look of one photograph. Also I'd like to know what sort of digital image
sensor the average person can use that doesn't scream with noise after
extremely long exposures.  The norm is no longer than 30 seconds. However,
I've done longer exposures but with shots like this it could take hours, I'd
guess, to get that much light absorption.
 
Sorry I just don't buy it.



  _____  

From: Bob West [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:25 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Cave photo


The picture explanation states "
<http://www.twanight.org/newTWAN/photos.asp?ID=3001638> Pictured above is
single exposure image".  I clicked on the "pictured above" link and it took
me to:
 
http://www.twanight.org/newTWAN/photos.asp?ID=3001638
 
This has more story from Wally about taking the photo.
 
It's got to be a SENSITIVE camera/sensor.
 
Can you say "image stabilization"??
 
Bob



  _____  


List-Post: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:14:31 -0500
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cave photo
CC: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]



I'd think the same - Both the interior and exterior could be done from one
exposure - but not the SAME exposure. Or at least one adjusted to the other.
OR DARN sensitive filim!
-WaV


On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Charles Goldsmith <[email protected]>
wrote:


>From talking to someone here at work that does a lot of
astro-photography, he said that Milky Way image is easily less than a
minute exposure, given really dark skies.

However, he also states that the cave image was probably overlaid from
a 2nd exposure, otherwise you would likely have some movement
indication from inside the cave.

Either way, its a beautiful picture.

Charles


On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Frank Binney <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Hey Bob--
> Cool photo....but I wonder if photo shop was involved. If you took an
> exposure long enough to get that type of detail in the Milky Way, wouldn't
> you get star streaks from the Earth's rotation during the long exposure
> time? Any astro experts out there with an opinion? Or half-astro experts?
> Frank
>
>
> On 9/29/08 10:20 AM, "Bob West" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Cave photo of the day from the 'astronomy picture of the day' site....
>
> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html
>
> Very nice!
>
>
>
> Bob
>
> ________________________________
> Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows
> Live. See Now
<http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/>
>
>


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  _____  

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Kevin, color is added by doing multiple exposures with different
colored filters and combining them, each exposure can be quite short,
depending on how dark it is at your location.

My guess is that on this photo, he did 1 exposure for the cave and 1
for the sky, then combined.  There is no way to keep things from
blurring if it was just 1 exposure because of movement, no matter the
equipment.

Charles

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Kevin McGowan <[email protected]> wrote:
> I agree with Frank,
>
> I find it impossible to shoot that image unless as Bob said it was an
> incredibly sensitive sensor.
>
> Typically astronomy photography takes hours of exposure even with super
> sensitive film or sensors.  With the rotation of the earth the sky will move
> since either the stars or the cave need to be still but both can't.
> Telescopes track stars and planets and move with them. That blurs any earth
> bound features.  If you lock down on an earth bound feature then the stars
> and planets blur. What I find most curious is there's color in his sky.  I
> didn't know you could get color unless you exposed for quite a long time and
> with no atmospheric interference. That's Hubble Telescope stuff, I thought.
>
> He mentioned the canyons being lit by a crescent moon. I've been star
> watching many times and even a crescent moon gives a LOT of light when
> trying to take deep space photography.
> Also, this shot looks retouched to me. The features are soft on the horizon
> but where the sky and land touch the line is very a very sharp edge.
>
> I've been working with Photoshop for over a decade. Textures have to match
> as well as the over all feel of the image. And this image doesn't have the
> look of one photograph. Also I'd like to know what sort of digital image
> sensor the average person can use that doesn't scream with noise after
> extremely long exposures.  The norm is no longer than 30 seconds. However,
> I've done longer exposures but with shots like this it could take hours, I'd
> guess, to get that much light absorption.
>
> Sorry I just don't buy it.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob West [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:25 PM
> To: [email protected]; [email protected];
> [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Cave photo
>
> The picture explanation states " Pictured above is single exposure image".
> I clicked on the "pictured above" link and it took me to:
>
> http://www.twanight.org/newTWAN/photos.asp?ID=3001638
>
> This has more story from Wally about taking the photo.
>
> It's got to be a SENSITIVE camera/sensor.
>
> Can you say "image stabilization"??
>
> Bob
>
>
> ________________________________
> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:14:31 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cave photo
> CC: [email protected]; [email protected];
> [email protected]
>
>
> I'd think the same - Both the interior and exterior could be done from one
> exposure - but not the SAME exposure. Or at least one adjusted to the
> other.  OR DARN sensitive filim!
> -WaV
>
> On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Charles Goldsmith <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> From talking to someone here at work that does a lot of
> astro-photography, he said that Milky Way image is easily less than a
> minute exposure, given really dark skies.
>
> However, he also states that the cave image was probably overlaid from
> a 2nd exposure, otherwise you would likely have some movement
> indication from inside the cave.
>
> Either way, its a beautiful picture.
>
> Charles
>
> On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Frank Binney <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Hey Bob--
>> Cool photo....but I wonder if photo shop was involved. If you took an
>> exposure long enough to get that type of detail in the Milky Way, wouldn't
>> you get star streaks from the Earth's rotation during the long exposure
>> time? Any astro experts out there with an opinion? Or half-astro experts?
>> Frank
>>
>>
>> On 9/29/08 10:20 AM, "Bob West" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Cave photo of the day from the 'astronomy picture of the day' site....
>>
>> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html
>>
>> Very nice!
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows
>> Live. See Now
>> <http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/>
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of
> your life. See Now

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I thought I read somewhere that he used film?

Or he used to use flim, but now digital...?

Stefan 

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Bob West; [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cave photo

Kevin, color is added by doing multiple exposures with different
colored filters and combining them, each exposure can be quite short,
depending on how dark it is at your location.

My guess is that on this photo, he did 1 exposure for the cave and 1
for the sky, then combined.  There is no way to keep things from
blurring if it was just 1 exposure because of movement, no matter the
equipment.

Charles

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Kevin McGowan
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I agree with Frank,
>
> I find it impossible to shoot that image unless as Bob said it was an
> incredibly sensitive sensor.
>
> Typically astronomy photography takes hours of exposure even with
super
> sensitive film or sensors.  With the rotation of the earth the sky
will move
> since either the stars or the cave need to be still but both can't.
> Telescopes track stars and planets and move with them. That blurs any
earth
> bound features.  If you lock down on an earth bound feature then the
stars
> and planets blur. What I find most curious is there's color in his
sky.  I
> didn't know you could get color unless you exposed for quite a long
time and
> with no atmospheric interference. That's Hubble Telescope stuff, I
thought.
>
> He mentioned the canyons being lit by a crescent moon. I've been star
> watching many times and even a crescent moon gives a LOT of light when
> trying to take deep space photography.
> Also, this shot looks retouched to me. The features are soft on the
horizon
> but where the sky and land touch the line is very a very sharp edge.
>
> I've been working with Photoshop for over a decade. Textures have to
match
> as well as the over all feel of the image. And this image doesn't have
the
> look of one photograph. Also I'd like to know what sort of digital
image
> sensor the average person can use that doesn't scream with noise after
> extremely long exposures.  The norm is no longer than 30 seconds.
However,
> I've done longer exposures but with shots like this it could take
hours, I'd
> guess, to get that much light absorption.
>
> Sorry I just don't buy it.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob West [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:25 PM
> To: [email protected]; [email protected];
> [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Cave photo
>
> The picture explanation states " Pictured above is single exposure
image".
> I clicked on the "pictured above" link and it took me to:
>
> http://www.twanight.org/newTWAN/photos.asp?ID=3001638
>
> This has more story from Wally about taking the photo.
>
> It's got to be a SENSITIVE camera/sensor.
>
> Can you say "image stabilization"??
>
> Bob
>
>
> ________________________________
> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:14:31 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cave photo
> CC: [email protected]; [email protected];
> [email protected]
>
>
> I'd think the same - Both the interior and exterior could be done from
one
> exposure - but not the SAME exposure. Or at least one adjusted to the
> other.  OR DARN sensitive filim!
> -WaV
>
> On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Charles Goldsmith
<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> From talking to someone here at work that does a lot of
> astro-photography, he said that Milky Way image is easily less than a
> minute exposure, given really dark skies.
>
> However, he also states that the cave image was probably overlaid from
> a 2nd exposure, otherwise you would likely have some movement
> indication from inside the cave.
>
> Either way, its a beautiful picture.
>
> Charles
>
> On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Frank Binney <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Hey Bob--
>> Cool photo....but I wonder if photo shop was involved. If you took an
>> exposure long enough to get that type of detail in the Milky Way,
wouldn't
>> you get star streaks from the Earth's rotation during the long
exposure
>> time? Any astro experts out there with an opinion? Or half-astro
experts?
>> Frank
>>
>>
>> On 9/29/08 10:20 AM, "Bob West" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Cave photo of the day from the 'astronomy picture of the day'
site....
>>
>> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html
>>
>> Very nice!
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with
Windows
>> Live. See Now
>> <http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/>
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are
part of
> your life. See Now

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
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-- 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, 
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any 
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any 
medium.  Thank you.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
As my friend Russ pointed out:
well there was always the blaring fact that that particular nebula never shows at that scale in our sky. 

Best, Terry


On Sep 30, 2008, at 10:31 AM, Stefan Creaser wrote:


I thought I read somewhere that he used film?

Or he used to use flim, but now digital...?

Stefan

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Bob West; [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cave photo

Kevin, color is added by doing multiple exposures with different
colored filters and combining them, each exposure can be quite short,
depending on how dark it is at your location.

My guess is that on this photo, he did 1 exposure for the cave and 1
for the sky, then combined.  There is no way to keep things from
blurring if it was just 1 exposure because of movement, no matter the
equipment.

Charles

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Kevin McGowan
<[email protected]> wrote:

I agree with Frank,

I find it impossible to shoot that image unless as Bob said it was an
incredibly sensitive sensor.

Typically astronomy photography takes hours of exposure even with

super

sensitive film or sensors.  With the rotation of the earth the sky

will move

since either the stars or the cave need to be still but both can't.
Telescopes track stars and planets and move with them. That blurs any

earth

bound features.  If you lock down on an earth bound feature then the

stars

and planets blur. What I find most curious is there's color in his

sky.  I

didn't know you could get color unless you exposed for quite a long

time and

with no atmospheric interference. That's Hubble Telescope stuff, I

thought.


He mentioned the canyons being lit by a crescent moon. I've been star
watching many times and even a crescent moon gives a LOT of light when 
trying to take deep space photography.
Also, this shot looks retouched to me. The features are soft on the

horizon

but where the sky and land touch the line is very a very sharp edge.

I've been working with Photoshop for over a decade. Textures have to

match
as well as the over all feel of the image. And this image doesn't have 
the

look of one photograph. Also I'd like to know what sort of digital

image
sensor the average person can use that doesn't scream with noise after 
extremely long exposures.  The norm is no longer than 30 seconds.

However,

I've done longer exposures but with shots like this it could take

hours, I'd

guess, to get that much light absorption.

Sorry I just don't buy it.

________________________________
From: Bob West [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:25 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Cave photo

The picture explanation states " Pictured above is single exposure

image".

I clicked on the "pictured above" link and it took me to:

http://www.twanight.org/newTWAN/photos.asp?ID=3001638

This has more story from Wally about taking the photo.

It's got to be a SENSITIVE camera/sensor.

Can you say "image stabilization"??

Bob


________________________________
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:14:31 -0500
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cave photo
CC: [email protected]; [email protected];
[email protected]
I'd think the same - Both the interior and exterior could be done from 
one

exposure - but not the SAME exposure. Or at least one adjusted to the
other.  OR DARN sensitive filim!
-WaV

On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Charles Goldsmith

<[email protected]>

wrote:

From talking to someone here at work that does a lot of
astro-photography, he said that Milky Way image is easily less than a
minute exposure, given really dark skies.
However, he also states that the cave image was probably overlaid from 
a 2nd exposure, otherwise you would likely have some movement
indication from inside the cave.

Either way, its a beautiful picture.

Charles
On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Frank Binney <[email protected]> 
wrote:

Hey Bob--
Cool photo....but I wonder if photo shop was involved. If you took an 
exposure long enough to get that type of detail in the Milky Way,

wouldn't

you get star streaks from the Earth's rotation during the long

exposure

time? Any astro experts out there with an opinion? Or half-astro

experts?

Frank


On 9/29/08 10:20 AM, "Bob West" <[email protected]> wrote:

Cave photo of the day from the 'astronomy picture of the day'

site....


http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

Very nice!



Bob

________________________________
Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with

Windows

Live. See Now
<http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/>




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Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]



________________________________
See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are

part of

your life. See Now


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To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]


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IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. 



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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- For all you photography buffs out there, here's a web site about astrophotography: 

http://www.astropix.com/
Lots of information on film vs. digital, digital post-processing, and oodles of images.
My guess is that he used a fancy filter on the camera to allow long- wavelength red light to hit the sensor of his expensive digital camera, and a lot of post-processing with Adobe Photoshop CS3. 

Diana


On Sep 29, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Bob West wrote:


Cave photo of the day from the 'astronomy picture of the day' site....

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

Very nice!



Bob
Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. See Now 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B   
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.   
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I e-mailed the photographer to ask him how he made the image. Here's what he said. 

Ed

Begin forwarded message:


From: "Wally Pacholka"
Date: September 30, 2008 2:12:11 PM CDT
To: "Ed Goff"
Subject: Re: TWAN photo

Ed,
The photograph is a stitching of 4 separate vertical shots taken side
by side, each photographing the night sky and landscape in one single
framed exposure with the exposure short enough not to blur the sky and
iso high enough to capture the stars, with a setting cresent moon to
light the canyon and artificail light to light the inside of the cave.
To purchase see brightnightgallery.com
Wally

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---


My old man liked to screw with the historical record by enscribing future dates on concrete that he had poured and then pouring a new floor over it with the more current date. He wanted to confuse the archaeologistii.

T.


http://home.infionline.net/~tbsamsel/

--- End Message ---
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      Ted Samsel said:
 
>My old man liked to screw with the historical record by enscribing future dates on concrete that he had poured and then pouring a new floor over it with the more current date. He wanted to confuse the archaeologistii.
 
      Cute trick, but one that would not hold up to scrutiny if it were actually important to know.  The aging of concrete has been well studied and the similar chemistry and age of the two pours would become obvious upon chemical analysis.
 
Mark Minton

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Well, my old man's dead so you can't piss him off by saying that. <chortle>

 

T.


-----Original Message-----
From: "Minton, Mark"
Sent: Sep 30, 2008 12:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Anachronistic graffiti

      Ted Samsel said:
 
>My old man liked to screw with the historical record by enscribing future dates on concrete that he had poured and then pouring a new floor over it with the more current date. He wanted to confuse the archaeologistii.
 
      Cute trick, but one that would not hold up to scrutiny if it were actually important to know.  The aging of concrete has been well studied and the similar chemistry and age of the two pours would become obvious upon chemical analysis.
 
Mark Minton
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http://home.infionline.net/~tbsamsel/

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Hey yall,

http://www.turnerfallspark.com

So, I'm setting up a family reunion at this park and luckily they say they have 
3 natural caves on it. I'm assuming someone on here knows some thing about 
these caves? Access? Environmental Sensitivity? Difficulty? Any vertical? I'm 
asking because I'm sure my cousins will want me to drag them into a cave with 
me. Also, because if I'm near a cave I have to try to get into it. I'm sure 
yall understand.
 
Thanks,Matt Turner 


"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without 
accepting it." - Aristotle
"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do 
that."- Norman Vincent Peale

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--- Begin Message --- It seems so sad to me that such a drop dead gorgeous photo should be dissected in terms of how it was taken. Is anyone just enjoying it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I am!!

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Nancy Weaver <[email protected]> wrote:

> It seems so sad to me that such a drop dead gorgeous photo should be
> dissected in terms of how it was taken.  Is anyone just enjoying it?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
At least for me, I just want to know how the hell he did it so I can
reproduce it.  Short of finding the photographer to ask dissecting it is
probably the next step.

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Nancy Weaver <[email protected]> wrote:

> It seems so sad to me that such a drop dead gorgeous photo should be
> dissected in terms of how it was taken.  Is anyone just enjoying it?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I too am interested in how it was created and if it was photoshopped- not to
discredit any art involved, but to ease my mind.  There is no way, at any
film iso speed that my camera can operate at anyhow, that I could that much
light from the Milky Way into my sensor without getting motion streaking.  A
confirmation that it was photoshopped, would satiate the itch to buy a
better camera.

:)



On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Joe Ranzau <[email protected]> wrote:

> At least for me, I just want to know how the hell he did it so I can
> reproduce it.  Short of finding the photographer to ask dissecting it is
> probably the next step.
>
>  On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Nancy Weaver <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> It seems so sad to me that such a drop dead gorgeous photo should be
>> dissected in terms of how it was taken.  Is anyone just enjoying it?
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>
>>
>

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--- Begin Message --- 
While it seems to be a beautiful photo I'm not actually enjoying it coz
it looks false...

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Weaver [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] photo

It seems so sad to me that such a drop dead gorgeous photo should be 
dissected in terms of how it was taken.  Is anyone just enjoying it?

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
It stated that it was done in one exposure.  Hmm... I guess that doesn't
rule out "one exposure - doctored".  I'd accept that it was extremely fast
film or hypersensitive superconductive-chilled sensor or something.
But like Stephan said - it's hard to swallow.  It looks a bit unnatural. .
-WaV

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 1:11 PM, Brian Riordan <[email protected]>wrote:

> I too am interested in how it was created and if it was photoshopped- not
> to discredit any art involved, but to ease my mind.  There is no way, at any
> film iso speed that my camera can operate at anyhow, that I could that much
> light from the Milky Way into my sensor without getting motion streaking.  A
> confirmation that it was photoshopped, would satiate the itch to buy a
> better camera.
>
> :)
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Joe Ranzau <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> At least for me, I just want to know how the hell he did it so I can
>> reproduce it.  Short of finding the photographer to ask dissecting it is
>> probably the next step.
>>
>>  On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Nancy Weaver <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> It seems so sad to me that such a drop dead gorgeous photo should be
>>> dissected in terms of how it was taken.  Is anyone just enjoying it?
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>>
>>>
>>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- The Discovery Channel (cable and satellite) will be airing at 9pm tonight MDT (10pm CDT) the "Into the Unknown with Josh Bernstein" episode "The Search for Life" which will include footage shot in Fort Stanton Cave's Snowy River passage. It will also air in High Definition. If you miss it, the entire series (including this episode listed with its alternate title "Life on Mars") can be ordered at $39.95 from the Discovery store: 

http://shopping.discovery.com/product-74189.html

Lee Skinner

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--- Begin Message --- 
At 12:52 PM 9/30/2008, Nancy Weaver wrote:
It seems so sad to me that such a drop dead gorgeous photo should be dissected in terms of how it was taken. Is anyone just enjoying it?
To some folks the mechanics of gorgeous things is also gorgeous--sometimes even more so.
--Ediger
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--- Begin Message --- 
Wally,
Recently your picture of the nebula from inside a cave created quite a bit of buzz with the Texas caving community, with lots of speculation on how you shot it. 

Film... Digital... Cooled... Photoshopped... and so on.
If you have the time an inclination, it would be great if you could share the details of what equipment you used and what technique you used to take it.. 

Thanks!

Robert Tait
(Now a New York Caver)

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--- Begin Message --- Makes plenty of sense to me. When you can push camera sensitivity to ISO 4K, miracles can happen. 

See Below:



Delivered-To: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:31:56 -0700
From: "Wally Pacholka" <[email protected]>
To: "Robert Tait" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Astronomy Picture of the Day

Robert,
It's a real photograph using a modern digital camera 20d, 5A, new
rebel all work, iso 1600 cranked to 4000 or so, less than 30 sec
exposure to freeze the stars as points, f/1.6 with 30mm lens or so,
cresent moon setting to light the landscape, flashlights.strope to
light the inside of the cave, 5 trips there at 1200 miles round trip
each - no kidding, 2 mile hike with last park being down a very steep
canyon wall, getting lost each time coming out each of the 5 times and
hard skin to fend off the you faked it in photoshop do nothing
armchair folk, plus 40 years experience and a high degree of crazyness
to get the perfect shot that few people will believe anyway.
My reward - knowing I got the shot of a lifetime - APOD 29th times,
TIME-LIFE Pic of year 3x, etc...
Wally Pacholka (search)

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Robert Tait <[email protected]> wrote:
> Wally,
>
> Recently your picture of the nebula from inside a cave created quite a bit
> of buzz with the Texas caving community, with lots of speculation on how you 
> shot it.
>
> Film... Digital... Cooled... Photoshopped... and so on.
>
> If you have the time an inclination, it would be great if you could share
> the details of what equipment you used and what technique you used to take
> it..
>
> Thanks!
>
> Robert Tait
> (Now a New York Caver)
>
>



--
Wally Pacholka
Night Sky Gallery
562-397-0591 Cell
562-268-4291 Fax
[email protected]
Web site: darkskygallery

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--- Begin Message --- 
Damn it, I guess I get to spend my G.W. money on a new camera.  Here I was
planing on sending it to some poor wall street CEO out of a job floating on
their golden parachute.

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Robert Tait <[email protected]> wrote:

> Makes plenty of sense to me.  When you can push camera sensitivity to ISO
> 4K, miracles can happen.
>
> See Below:
>
>
>  Delivered-To: [email protected]
>> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:31:56 -0700
>> From: "Wally Pacholka" <[email protected]>
>> To: "Robert Tait" <[email protected]>
>> Subject: Re: Astronomy Picture of the Day
>>
>> Robert,
>> It's a real photograph using a modern digital camera 20d, 5A, new
>> rebel all work, iso 1600 cranked to 4000 or so, less than 30 sec
>> exposure to freeze the stars as points, f/1.6 with 30mm lens or so,
>> cresent moon setting to light the landscape, flashlights.strope to
>> light the inside of the cave, 5 trips there at 1200 miles round trip
>> each - no kidding, 2 mile hike with last park being down a very steep
>> canyon wall, getting lost each time coming out each of the 5 times and
>> hard skin to fend off the you faked it in photoshop do nothing
>> armchair folk, plus 40 years experience and a high degree of crazyness
>> to get the perfect shot that few people will believe anyway.
>> My reward - knowing I got the shot of a lifetime - APOD 29th times,
>> TIME-LIFE Pic of year 3x, etc...
>> Wally Pacholka (search)
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Robert Tait <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > Wally,
>> >
>> > Recently your picture of the nebula from inside a cave created quite a
>> bit
>> > of buzz with the Texas caving community, with lots of speculation on how
>> you
>> > shot it.
>> >
>> > Film... Digital... Cooled... Photoshopped... and so on.
>> >
>> > If you have the time an inclination, it would be great if you could
>> share
>> > the details of what equipment you used and what technique you used to
>> take
>> > it..
>> >
>> > Thanks!
>> >
>> > Robert Tait
>> > (Now a New York Caver)
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Wally Pacholka
>> Night Sky Gallery
>> 562-397-0591 Cell
>> 562-268-4291 Fax
>> [email protected]
>> Web site: darkskygallery
>>
>
>
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> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
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>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
This was also taken with a single exposure!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/graceborengasser/2902786977/

grace

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--- Begin Message --- 

Blue Grotto Springs in FL in 2/7/2004.
http://www.mflan.com/temp/blue_grotto_springs1.jpg
http://www.mflan.com/temp/blue_grotto_springs2.jpg
http://www.mflan.com/temp/blue_grotto_springs3.jpg

http://terraserverusa.com/map.aspx?t=2&s=12&lon=-82.48694&lat=29.38750&opt=1
http://tinyurl.com/4vp5ss


No particular reason - just pretty pics.


Mike Flannigan

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