:-) It is good you wrote, I do not have your patience.
> Le 21 juin 2021 à 11:30, Massimiliano Gubinelli <m.gubine...@gmail.com> a > écrit : > > Dear Martin, > >> On 20. Jun 2021, at 22:00, martin-k...@brusseler.com >> <mailto:martin-k...@brusseler.com> wrote: >> >> Massimiliano, >> >> I have not read the book and cannot confidently make the >> assessment you describe. > > I never referred to the content of the book. I pointed out that there is > plenty of free documentation for TeXmacs available. I think you can read it > and very by yourself that it is quite comprehensive and informative. Indeed > until the book was written (i.e. last year) it was the only information > available. > >> I do not know what the main author of >> TeXmacs has written in that book. I just outlined what is >> considered standard at university level. > > I'm not sure what university has to do with that. Joris has written his book > in his private capacity as he already stressed. > >> The book is about how >> to use a particular implementation of software. >> > > The book is on how to write good documents with TeXmacs, does not discuss > only the specific use of the software (which is already covered by the free > user manual and the various tutorials) but how to use it effectively and what > are the best practice of document writing. Again Joris do not have to be > slave of his decision to make TeXmacs available as a GNU project in other > parts of his daily life. > > TeXmacs has already a good free manual. I bought the book also to give my > appreciation to Joris for all his hard work. > >> Became aware of TeXmacs around 2013 after a talk by François >> Poulain. Have reviewed TeXmacs a number of times since then - >> but I could not really recommend it. But do hope to change my >> mind about it, because I can see some benefits in using it if >> specific criticisms are tackled. > > I would be interested in reading your reviews. Are they available somewhere? > Where can we learn about these criticisms? > >> The distribution of a book >> relates to its value for readers. An author must accept that a >> limited circulation book will not earn much money. > > This is not your choice to make. Many book have very small circulation but > they are produced for the love of quality and beauty. Is really the price > your only issue? I showed you that popular LaTeX books are similarly priced. > You didn't commented about it. > >> Few authors do. Inflating its price as we have seen with Elsevier >> and others is a disease that requires eradication. Thusly I >> refuse to involve myself in peer-review.for the benefit of >> publishers who mistreat readers with vastly inflated prices, >> while at the same time campaigning for exclusive legal rights of >> exploitation to be granted to them by governments. >> > > Martin, the economy of scientific publications is not a matter involving this > mailing list, or about your specific complain about the lack of free > documentation for TeXmacs (which I showed you that it is unmotivated). > >> Be reminded that my discussion with Joris (and which I am glad he >> responded directly) went far beyond the development contribution, >> elaborating on topics that are at director and institutional >> levels. And we have found much agreement and recognition of the >> challenges at hand. > > If you write on texmacs-dev then other developers/users of TeXmacs are > entitled to answer. If you want to address Joris personally use his own mail > address. I feel compelled as a supporter of this project to say my word to > support Joris' hard work and commitment to free software. > >> The challenge has no similarities to what has been seen recently >> in the software community (vis Richard Stallman, Eric Raymond, >> Linus Torvalds). Do not interpret it that way. Neither should I be >> associated with Open Source Projects, as it is something I don't >> agree with. >> > > I'm sorry but I do not know what you are talking about, I'm quite ignorant in > these matters and do not understand your point here. > >> As Directeur de Recherche, Joris is quite capable of responding >> forcefully at unjust criticism as befitting to his position. > > I do not see how the daily work of Joris matters here. It should not. He > could be a baker or a painter. If you think our work should affect our > activity/position in this discussion, I would invite you to disclose > analogous informations about you. I'm a university professor myself, for what > it matters. But I would have liked to be a restaurant waiter, too. > >> What I can do is encourage and inspire the world to change some >> attitudes, in ways that will make the institutions we work with, >> the best they can be. >> >> Together with others, we can work so that true human capabilities >> can find expression. >> > > > Joris' contribution to the world of free software is clear and well > documented by more than 70% of ~300.000 lines of code and free documentation > and the leadership of this project. In comparison each of us other developers > of TeXmacs have made minor contributions. It would be helpful to know, to > understand better your point, what are you proposing concretely. In > particular also what are your contributions to the goal of > > "we can work so that true human capabilities can find expression." > > Best regards, > Massimiliano Gubinelli > > >> >> >> >> From: Massimiliano Gubinelli <m.gubine...@gmail.com >> <mailto:m.gubine...@gmail.com>> >> To: martin-k...@brusseler.com <mailto:martin-k...@brusseler.com> >> Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Free Software needs Free Documentation >> Date: 20/06/2021 19:35:37 Europe/Paris >> Cc: TeXmacs developer mailing list <texmacs-dev@gnu.org >> <mailto:texmacs-dev@gnu.org>> >> >> Dear Martin, >> >> let me add some more perspective and some numbers, since you seems to be >> new to this project and maybe unfamiliar with it. >> >> You can check here some metrics: >> >> https://www.openhub.net/p/texmacs <https://www.openhub.net/p/texmacs> >> >> TeXmacs has ~250.000 lines of C++ and ~200.000 lines of Scheme code. The >> great majority of this code has been written by Joris since 17 years: >> >> https://www.openhub.net/p/texmacs/contributors/summary >> <https://www.openhub.net/p/texmacs/contributors/summary> >> >> I've joined the project in 2006 and I witnessed the constant work which >> Joris delivers in bugfixes, new substantial features, quality control over >> contributions by others, etc.. It is fair to say that a large community of >> users profits everyday from this work. >> >> As for documentation we have a 260 pages user manual, a 50 pages developer >> guide and a 150 pages manual for the scheme extensions. All free and >> available in the program. There is a forum and a blog >> >> https://texmacs.github.io/notes/docs/main.html >> <https://texmacs.github.io/notes/docs/main.html> >> >> with some tutorials. >> >> Joris himself created also few video tutorials (the only one available so >> far), available on youtube and on our own web site. >> >> So I find quite puzzling your critique, and frankly quite unjust. Maybe were >> you not aware of their existence? >> >> I feel that Joris has the right to write and distribute whatever he likes, >> especially given the fact that his contribution to the project is already >> substantial without the book. I personally bought several copies to give as >> gift to friends. >> >> I do not share the opinion of Alvaro that the book should be made free. The >> program is free software and everybody can write documentation, tutorials >> for it. Is not the obligation of Joris to do more than he already does and >> I'm quite fine with him publishing a great book for 50 euros, as I would be >> if he would publish a literary work with a standard publisher. You cannot >> compare a book with a small distribution like one on TeXmacs with a >> widespread book on Algebra used by many more students. As with other >> publications students can ask libraries to but the book, libraries which >> already have books on TeX and LaTeX which are similarly prices: Lamport's >> LaTeX book is $44 euros on amazon: >> >> https://www.amazon.com/LaTeX-Document-Preparation-System-2nd/dp/0201529831 >> <https://www.amazon.com/LaTeX-Document-Preparation-System-2nd/dp/0201529831> >> >> But, as everybody using TeXmacs regularly knows, you do not have to have the >> book to use it. Many of us learned to use TeXmacs before and without Joris' >> book. You can go in the forum and ask information, you can read the sources >> and see how to do something, you can read the blog for specific tutorials >> written by other collaborators like Giovanni. >> >> TeXmacs is a great project I'm quite proud to contribute to. I never felt >> any problem with Joris' book. >> >> Open source projects needs support and love from users which understand and >> value the dedication and hard work needed to make them successful. >> >> Best regards, >> Massimiliano Gubinelli >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Texmacs-dev mailing list >> Texmacs-dev@gnu.org <mailto:Texmacs-dev@gnu.org> >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/texmacs-dev > > _______________________________________________ > Texmacs-dev mailing list > Texmacs-dev@gnu.org <mailto:Texmacs-dev@gnu.org> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/texmacs-dev > <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/texmacs-dev>
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