Sir,
Refer Para 2 "s"logic given- husband and wife become one soul aftermarriage
after performing 7th promise of saptapadi.no doubt husband and wifebecome one
soul as per saptapadi vow.
On this account no tharpanam is performed when father is alive and mother has
died, and on the thithi of the mother's death, srardha is performed to her
deceased MALE ancestors.
If father died earlier, tharpanam is started after 1st annual srardha, and
srardha is conducted to HIM.
Perhaps these points you may elaborate later.Gopalakrishnan
On Sunday, 12 May, 2024 at 06:03:29 pm IST, Rajaram Krishnamurthy
<[email protected]> wrote:
PITU GOTRA part 12 KR IRS 11524 12524
lineage/gotra/kulaof divorced hindu women
scriptures say- family/lineage where women are victimizedand harassed gets
destroyed then which family/lineage to be considered doomed
logic given- husband and wife become one soul aftermarriage after performing
7th promise of saptapadi.no doubt husband and wifebecome one soul as per
saptapadi vows Hindu marriage is divided into 8categories- 4 righteous and 4
non righteous. as per texts the righteousmarriage is connected to lineages and
non-righteous are basically connectedwith carnal /material desires.
but can we consider a woman or man :
a forced to marryjoining soul with husband /wife?
B becoming soul mate of husband/wife when she/he marries
For money?
C becoming soulmate when she/he deceives someone into marriage?
The concept of becoming one soul belongs to the righteousclass of Hindu
marriages. and cannot belong to rakshasa vyavahāra Vivaha andpaishacha Vivaha.
A woman logically inherits the lineage of husband when byheart and soul she
accepts joining him i.e in case of righteous marriages andeven in case of
gandharva Vivaha which though is not taken as a good marriagebut has a content
of surrender to partner and desire for union.
If the wife/ husband has been forced into marriage
or the motive is money at the time of marriage
or a deceptive marriage – joining of soul is difficult.
And whereas wife loses her Gotra in divorce whyhusband alone is allowed to
retain the patriarchy gotra?
wife though staying with husband has not joined his lineagebecause the motive
is other than the motive of continuance of lineage. Hence incase of divorce the
gotra of such woman should be thatof her father. also kindly refer to an
excellent Ph.d thesis whichthrows light on this matter
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
THE POSITION OF WOMEN INTHE VEDIC RITUAL
Just as the wifeis enjoined to please the husband, the husband is also
enjoined to please thewife. Where the wife and the husband are whole-heartedly
pleased with eachother, they acquire the three objects of life (Tri-varga).
They must remainsatisfied with mutual partnership in all matters; they must not
even think ofothers; for the violation of these rules, they incur the same sin
and undergothe same punishment without any distinction whatsoever. For grave
offences they separate from each other or they may marry again. She may
remarry, it her first husband is impotent, outcasteor dead or for reasons.
{other (similarly grave) 179 Alanu, III, 60-61.180 Parasara, 4, 12-13;
similarly, Devala, Brhaspati, etc. 181 For those of thewife ij Yajnavalkya, 3,
72-73}
She or heis to remarry, however, on the fullest knowledge chat her
or his marriage forthe second time cannot be considered as a sacred ceremony
(sarnskara). Even though she or heremarries another unmarried man or woman, is
still the marriage cannot beaccredited as a samskara as eachsarnskara is to be
observed only once in life and her or his marriageceremony has been completed
for ever in the first marriage. From time immemorial'the wife has doubly blest
her husband, by procreation as well as byparticipation in sacrifices. In this
connection her epithets “Jaya” and“^Patni” are, no doubt to some extent,
significant. But this “Jayatva” and“Patnitva” are by no means separable in a
clear-cut way as her Jayatva servesreally for her Patnitva. She performs a
religious duty by means of procreation.She as well as her husband have been
born as owing debts to the gods, to theRsis, to the fathers and to man.“
(In 182 Vas. DhS., XVII, 20; Alarm IX, 175-176; Yajn., i,67; cf. also
Kama-sutra, p. 248 (Nir. Ed,), Sutra 31 (with Yasodhara’sCommentary); Baudh,
DhS., IV, 1. 16; II, 2, 3, 27 ; Visntt XV, 7 • Narada XII,45ff- 183 For the
Indo-Iraniaii period: W. Geiger, Ostiraniseke JCultHr JmAltertum, p. 244- 184
Panini, IV, i, 33; cf. Sat. BrS., i, 9, 2, 14. ButPatanjali docs not observe
this distinction. 185 Sa^. Bra., i, 7, 2, i ; alsoIX, 4, i, 5; Tail..Bra., VI,
3, 5; 10; III. 7, 9, 8; AV., VI. 117, 3; Tait. Aran.,VII, ix, 5; Tait^ 1 34)
order toliberate themselves from the debt to fathers, they are to marry and
havechildren : the fathers in the other world depend for their continuance on
theofferings of their children. The ardent desire for having children
forreligious purposes has given women an extremely high position.' So it is
onlynatural that she almost always prays to gods for children. Owing to the
urgentnecessity of having children, productive unions are always to be effected
inrituals so much so that even the vessels, spoons or other
sacrificialimplements are often imagined as males and females. Progeny is one
of theprimary objects of. sacrifices. The wife as the bearer of this highest"
Itwill be seen in this connection that in the water-libations and Sraddas,
waterand cake are offered to the parents of the mother as well as the
fatherblessing on earth deserves respect from the husband as welli as from
thesociety. The husband is bound to respect her as in her, the Jaya, he is
bornagain, and as she, offered as great Brilliance to him by the gods and
theseers, is his mother again” Greek womenare excluded from the cult of Theos
Megus, Zeus and Tachnepsis, but there isnot a single Vedic ritual from which
they are excluded. In the Pravargyasacrifice the wife wraps up her head. This
does not mean exclusion at all; onthe other hand, it is a part of her
ritualistic observances in the sacrifice,as, after this observance, she joins
in other rites in the sacrifice. Accordingto a few authorities^” the wife
should be debarred from the Sapuidana if shehas neither husband nor sons.
Markandeya thinks even though her husband may beliving, unless she has any
issue she is not entitled to have the Samithadana,the mention of the son is
significant of the husband and so there is nocontradiction' in statements of
these authorities. It the same circumstancesthe Sapindana for the wife, too,
may be performed by the sons of her co-wives,otherwise the omission is as
inevitable as in the case of the husband.Moreover, the object of the Sapin¬
dana IS to relieve the mane from the stateof a mane; such a state of the wife m
the above circumstances will ceasebecause of the performance of other Sraddhas.
The woman is always pure. Somagives them Purity, Gandharvas sweet voice.
Whatever be the sin of a wife in themeantime, it is sure to be drained out of
her body and she becomes absolutelypure Her temporary Impurity is the cause of
All Purity The Brahmana is pureonly in the feet, but the woman is pure in all
her limbs Her mouth is neverimpure/ The stress laid by the authorities on the
ritualistic impurity of womenduring their monthly course, pregnancy and
childbirth is due to their physicalincapacity or some other unavoidable cause
or causes. The injunctions are allvery reasonable pieces of advice and cannot
at all hint at their inferiority inposition. During her period she is not in
her normal state of ill-healthauthorities, therefore, make compulsory rules
These are allowed, simply because they would otherwise cause somehindrance,
necessitate some atonement owing to the lapse of the proper time.
Thus 1 we say that afterdivorce she gets father gotra
2 But sastra says that samskara Vivaha is onlyonce for both man and woman.
And second and further marriages are notsamskaras. Hence she retains only the
Gotra of the first husband, whichaccording to me is cruel.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
What is a gotra, andhow does it work?
The term gotrain Hindu culture is often used to refer to a clan. It refers
to those whodescend from an unbroken male line of a commonmale ancestral or
patrilineal. The Gotra is generally considered an exogamousunit. Marriage
within the same Gotra is prohibited by custom and consideredincest. According
to the Brahadaranyaka Upanishad,there were seven sages - Gautam Bharadvaja,
Visvamitra, Jamadagni, Vasishta,Kashyapa, Shandilya, and Visvamitra. They were
also known as saptarshis, andtheir progeny are considered gotras. Panini knew
about this enumeration ofseven primary gotras. He used the term gotra to denote
grammatical purposes inhis literary works. He calls it papatyam putraprabhrti
gotram. This means that the person whosays he is from 'Kashyapa' Gotra means
that he descends from Kashyapa throughunbroken male descent. We will be
explaining what Gotra is and the importanceof Gotra in this article!
Gotra and marriagesin Hinduism
The rule of exogamy in traditional matrimonial systemsprohibits marriages
within the Gotra. In preparation for Hindu marriage, it iscommon to ask about
the groom and bride's kula–Gotra (clan-lineage) beforeagreeing to the wedding.
People belonging to the same Gotra are consideredsiblings, and a marriage to
one of these people can increase the chances thatthe child will get genetically
transmitted diseases. Marriage within the sameGotra is forbidden in almost all
Hindu families. This is because they are thought to have come from thesame
family. Marriages between gotras are encouraged. However, unions withinthe
jaati began to occur later.
Hindus pass theGotra from their fathers to their children. It is, however,
passed from motherto child among the Tulu population. It is then in the
children'shands to carry forward the importance of Gotra for the upcoming
generation.
The tatsama words sahodara' (brother ) and sahodari(sister) are derived from
the Sanskrit term 'saha Udara' (same womb/blood),which means co-uterine, or
born of the same womb. Marriages between a woman'smaternal uncle and herself
were permitted in gotra communities. However, such marriages were prohibited
inmatrilineal communities like Tuluva, where gotra membership was handed
downfrom the mother.
One of the most common features of South Indian Hindusociety is the permission
to marry cross-cousins (children from differentgotras). A man can marry his
paternal uncle's or maternal aunt's child, but nothis paternal uncle. She would
be considered a cousin of the same Gotra and betreated as a sister.
North Indian Hindu society follows the rules of Gotra tomarry and has many
other regulations that go beyond the basics of Gotra. It also has a
widerdefinition of incest. North Indian communities may not allow marriage to
otherclans if they believe that they are the same patrilineal descendants.
Marriagewithin the gotras of the father and mother, as well as with other
clans, isforbidden in some communities.
One possible solution to sagotra weddings is to adopt thebride from a different
family. Usually, dathu is given to the bride's maternaluncle to a different
gotra. Then let them perform the Kanyadanam ('Kanya (girl)+' danam' (to give).
Thesework arounds may not be accepted in all cases.
Vedic Hinduism recognizes eight types of marriages. Ittherefore primarily
follows the Manu Smriti principles, which refers to eighttypes of marriages and
their roles and responsibilities. Eight types ofmarriages for the importance of
Gotra are as follows -
(1) Brahma Vivaha
(2) Arsa Vivaha
(3) Daiva Vivaha
(4) Prajapatya Vivaha
(5) Gandharva Vivaha
(6) Asura Vivaha
(7) Rakshasa Vivaha
(8) Paishacha Vivaha
As per Manu Smriti,the third and fourth types of marriages are forbidden. The
second and third arealso condemned. Gandharva marriage is similar to modern-day
love unions,in which the individual can choose their partner. Gandharvamarriage
was once a prominent part of our Shastras. {Living together?] However,Vedic
Hinduism gave way to classical Hinduism, and arranged marriage emerged.This is
still the most common ritual for a marriage between two people.
Sagotram marriage ispermissible even if they are not related to six generations
of either thepaternal or maternal side. This is stated in chapter 5, Manu
Smriti, mantra 60. It states thatspinnddtaa tu pulusse sptme vinette /
smaanodkbhaavstu jnmnaamnorvedne.
Now we will answer some most common questions asked on theimportance of Gotra!
Is it possible for theBrahmin sub-castes to be grouped under different gotras
that are patrilineal?
Yes. There are manyBrahmin sub-castes and major Brahmin castes that exist in
India. In the 1860s,Rev MA Sherring had compiled approximately 2,000 in his
second volume of HinduTribes and Castes. The list was considered incomplete
bySherring. The Brahmin sub-castes can be grouped under different
gotras,patrilineal groups. Some Shastras and common beliefs, as discussed in
"Hindu Castes &Sects" by Gajendranath Bhattacharya, indicate that the
Indiancontinent's Brahmins are divided into two main groups: PanchaGaur or
Pancha Dravida.
What is pancha gaur?
Pancha Gaur is theclassification of five Northern India groups, including
Saraswata KanyakubjaGaudra Utkala and Utkala. The five Southern India classes
that are includedunder Panch Dravida include Andhra and Dravida (Tamil, Kerala,
Karnataka,Maharashtra, and Gujarat).
The Brahmin sub castes can be broadly divided into twomajor geographical
divisions, the north, and the south. The Narmada River isthe dividing line.
According to Sherring, the gaur (white subcastes) live inthe Narmada region,
while the Dravida subcastes are located south.
Is it possible toidentify gotras based on Vedas?
Yes. Sherring stated that they could be identified based onthe Vedas they
follow.
1 The Rig isfollowed by the Bhargaus and Sankritas, Gargs/Chandras, Bhrigus,
Bhrigus,Saunaks, Bhargaus, Gargs (Chandras), Bhrigus, Bhrigus, and Bhargus.
2 The Sama is followed by the Kasyaps andKaasyaps as well as Vatsas,
Sandilas, Dhananjays, Sandilas, Sandilas, andVatsas.
3 TheBharadwajs of Bhaaradwajs are Angirahs and Gautams. Upamanyus,
Bhaaradwajs andGautams observe the Yajur.
4 Kaushikas andGritakaushikas adhere to the Atharva. Galawas, Vashishts,
Galawas, andMudhgalas follow the Atharva.
5 All other people follow the Yajur.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
In theMahabharata, Vichitravirya died without having any children. In
order that theKuru race does not come to an end, his two wives Ambika and
Ambalika gave birtha son each, Dhritarashtra and Pandu, on their union with the
Sage Vyasa. This was as per the practice of"Niyoga" type of marriage which was
prevalent at that time. However,the two sons still were treated as from the
same gotra as Vichitravirya (s.oSathanu) ,and not of the gotram of Vyasa rishi
(s/o Parasara) .
If this is taken as a precedent, then allchildren born to a woman, whomsoever
the father may be, should be considered tobelong to the gotram of her first
husband. ( KR This conclusion is debatable because, Vyasa was uninterested in
who iswho; but every seed giver , may own rightfully only the gotram of self,
even ifmother were different; because a woman in modern days acts as surrogate
thegotra cannot be claimed by the lady)
The gotra of the baby follows the gotra of the husband ofwoman (even though he
is not the biological father)
So we can treat SageVyasa's Niyoga as a donor sperm.
This is not the same as in divorce and remarriagebecause the old marriage is no
longer valid legally.
The kids born throughthe new marriage should follow gotra of new hubby and I
personally feel sincethe DNA of a girl can’t change so let her remain in the
same gotra she was bornin. At the end of the day when our bodyis merely a
garment that will be shed from life to life does Gotra really makea difference?
She Changes Her Name, Her House And Her ‘Gotra’ AfterMarriage. But What
After Divorce?
The question was, “Ma’am my husband recently divorced me. Ihave been battling
severe depression since then. He left me for another womanbecause I didn’t even
want the divorce.
Recently I visited a temple with my family and relatives.While offering the
puja, the temple priest asked everyone their names and gotra(family lineage).
So, I gave my husband’s, kids and my own name with thegotra. The puja started.
But suddenly one of my relatives shouted and asked thepriest to stop the puja.
When we asked her why, she said some details wereincorrect. She meant that my
gotra was no longer the same as my husband’s giventhat we are divorced.
At the same time, my children have the same gotraas my husband. So I asked her
what my gotra would be. To whichthe priest says that it goes back to the same
as my father’s gotra. Now,if I get married to someone else, the gotra changes
again- to that of my newhusband.
A woman’s identity crisis
And it changes again when she remarries. The bottom line isthat, in order to
live in this society, a woman needs her father or husband’slineage. She needs a
man’s lineage just to offer prayers in the temple. Andnothing is standardised.
It will all change according to the situation.
Now, this can again be a topic of debate. The debate couldbe how many times
will a woman get married, and the number of divorces thereare. Divorces
continue to be riddled with social stigma and the stereotypicalbeliefs.
A woman’s identity has grown beyond these capitalistic andfeudal contexts.
Needless to say, the 21st-century woman does not believe that‘marriage is the
destination of her life story.’ The modern woman is confidentand powerful. She
is mentally strong and capable of moving on in her lifewithout the borrowed
identity of a man.
Indeed ‘life after divorce‘ is a double-edged sword that awoman stands on. A
woman who is going through or has recently gone through adivorce is in a
traumatic phase.
So, what is the solution?
She is a divorcee. Does that mean she has to wait to getmarried to an older man
or a widower or someone with kids?
Why should a social stigma compel her to depend on a man’sidentity always?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as जाताशौचम् , मृताशौचम् etc . are concerned there will be some
norms following धर्मशास्त्रम् , which are due to blood relation .
So , in all कर्मs - सङ्कल्प - it may be one that is performed along with
husband (सत्यनारायणव्रतम्) or individual (नित्यपूजा) -she would pronounce her
husband'sgotram -- because
आपस्तंबधर्मसूत्रम्(apastamba dharma sutram) (2-6-13-16,17) says -- जायापत्योः न
विभागो’स्ति । पाणिग्रहणाद्धि सहत्वं कर्मसु ... .(Jayapatyo: Na vibhaagosthi
/panigrahanaadathi sahatvam karmasu
and दंपत्योः सहाधिकार (dambatyo sahaadikara) isestablished in sixth अध्याय (6th
chap) of पूर्वमीमांसा (Purva meemamsa) (स्ववतोस्तु...) । पत्नी is called
अर्धाङ्गी (half of the body of husband) –patni isardhaangi
अर्धो वा एषआत्मनो यत्पत्नी -- 6-1-8-5तैत्तिरीयसंहिता (कृष्णयजुर्वेदः) ।
Ardho va esha: atmana yat patni 6185 taitriya samhita krishna Yajurvedam
अर्धो वा एषआत्मनो यज्जाया -- 5-2-1-10, 8-7-2-3 ardha va esha atmano yajnaya
शतपथब्राह्मणम् (शुक्लयजुर्वेदः)(shatapaatha brahamaanam) (Shukla YV)
।पत्युर्नोयज्ञसंयोगे पा सू 4-1-33 (pithyurnyo yajasamyoge Pa.Su 41 33 If पति
and पत्नी have different gotras the aboveinjunctions would be rendered null
and void .If a lady goes for a second marriage , due to divorce or नष्टे मृते
प्रव्रजिते क्लीबेपतिते she would get the gotra of the second husband -- a
thirdmarriage would entail the third husband's gotram . Inthe event of death
of her husband, if she wishes to remain as a widow, shewould continue to carry
her husband's gotram.
--------------------------------------------------------------
In पाणिनीयम्(Paanineeyam) twokinds of गोत्रs are followed - Patanjali
clarifies -- अपत्याधिकारादन्यत्र लौकिकं गोत्रम् (apatyadikaaradanyatraloukikam)
Otherwise one should go for पारिभाषिकंगोत्रम् ।(Paripashikam) अपत्यं
पौत्रप्रभृति गोत्रम्-- जीवति तु वंश्ये युवा -- भ्रातरि चज्यायसि -- वान्यस्मिन्
सपिण्डे स्थविरतरे जीवति पा सू 4-1-162-165
---------------------------------------------
The terms which Arjuna uses are: kula-kshayakrutam dosham, paataka, paapam,
sanatana-kula-dharma-pranaasha,adharma, - kula-striyah- pranashyanti / streeshu
dushtaasu varna-sankarahjaayate, Sankarah narakaaya, pitarahpatanti lupta-pind
udaka-kriyah, kulaghna,(shaashvata)-jaati-kula-dharma-utsaadana .{B G} Arjuna
argues: ‘We are taught like this /told like this /groomed likethis to follow
binding norms / Weunderstand elders teaching like this’ to decide ‘DHARMA’-
ityanu-shushruma(1-44) 1. On< If पति and पत्नी havedifferent gotras the above
injunctions would be rendered null and void>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.Requesthelp to understand the implication of < above injunctions would
berendered null and void>.
’धर्मेचार्थे च कामे च नातिचरितव्या’ - is the pledge and 'अग्नीषोमौदेवता ’
(अग्नि and सोम are a single देवता) - is taken up to explain the concept of
दांपत्यम् - which means - except for the physical separation , there are no
twopersons after marriage . It means the गोत्रम्is also should be one.
(2) : 2.a. Does thisimply -‘First Marriage’ permanently takes away the ‘Birth
Gotra- Identity’ for
theFemale ?
Yes certainly .
2.b. Doesit, by extension, imply, the ‘female not willing to marry/ remain a
spinsterfor life’
Wouldhave here ‘Birth Gotra’ for her life? Even if
‘Parent have fallen out of‘Gotra- status’?
Yes .
2.c. When Panini provides ‘ Gotra’ to spread across ‘ Three Generations
(Vruddha –
reference)and beyond, How would several present ‘
Gotra
Panini's गोत्रम्(अपत्यं पौत्रप्रभृति गोत्रम्) istechnical , exclusively useful
in अपत्याधिकारप्रकरणम्- it is not लौकिकगोत्रम् । Even the वृद्धसंज्ञा
(वृद्धस्यच पूजायाम् - वार्तिकम्) was being used bypre-Paninian grammarians
for गोत्रम्(of Panini) .
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, What is Indian Constitution stand on‘GOTRA: Dynamic Identity - in Hindu
Marriage solemnization’?
Where would one connect DHARMA-SHAASTRA/ Gotrapre- conditioned Marriage in
current period Samskar- paddhati?
Text: Hindu Marriage Invalid Without Requisite Ceremonies,Registration Won't
Make It Legitimate: SC
New Delhi: The Supreme Court (SC) in a judgementclarified the legal
requirements and sanctity of Hindu marriages under theHindu Marriage Act 1955.
The Court emphasised that for a Hindu marriage to bevalid, it must be performed
with the appropriate rites and ceremonies, such assaptapadi (seven steps around
the sacred fire) if included, and proof of theseceremonies is essential in case
of disputes.
Justice B V Nagaratna led bench said that a Hindu Marriageis sacrament, not an
event for "song-dance","wining-dining".
"A Hindu marriage is a samskara and a sacrament whichhas to be accorded its
status as an institution of great value in Indiansociety. Therefore, we urge
young men and women to think deeply about theinstitution of marriage even
before they enter upon it and as to how sacred thesaid institution is, in
Indian society. Marriage is not an event for 'song anddance' and 'wining and
dining' or an occasion to demand and exchange dowry andgifts by undue pressure
leading to possible initiation of criminal proceedingsthereafter," the court .
It added, "A marriage is not a commercial transaction.It is a solemn
foundational event celebrated so as to establish a relationshipbetween a man
and a woman who acquire the status of a husband and wife for anevolving family
in future which is a basic unit of Indian society.
A bench comprising Justices BV Nagarathna and AugustineGeorge Masih observed
that while registration of a Hindu marriageunder Section 8 of the Hindu
Marriage Act facilitates proof of themarriage, it does not confer legitimacy if
the marriage was not solemnisedaccording to Section 7 of the Act, which
specifies the requirements for a validHindu marriage ceremony.
"If there has been no marriage in accordance withSection 7, the registration
would not confer legitimacy to the marriage. Wefind that the registration of
Hindu marriages under the said provision is onlyto facilitate the proof of a
Hindu marriage but for that, there has to be aHindu marriage in accordance with
Section 7 of the Act inasmuch as theremust be a marriage ceremony which has
taken place between the parties inaccordance with the said provision. Although
the parties may have compliedwith the requisite conditions for a valid Hindu
marriage as per Section 5 ofthe Act in the absence of there being a “Hindu
marriage” in accordance withSection 7 of the Act, i.e., solemnization of such a
marriage, there would be noHindu marriage in the eye of law."
The Court also underscored the sacred character of Hindumarriage, calling it a
sacrament and the foundation of a new family, based onmutual respect and
partnership between spouses.
KR: From the aboveconstitutional propriety, the argument of Hindu marriage
validity as declared,if performed for each marriage, THEN I her an argument
that except the first,all other marriages of women, are invalid as samskara?
NO. Because allmarriages were performed by Hindu Marriage act only. Hence,
Gotra of women keepon changing? Or by those interpretations of SAMSKARA as only
once, she cannotget back father gotra and cannot drop, divorced husband Gotra?
K Rajaram IRS 11524//12524
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