-----Original Message----- From: Ben Seattle <> Date: Friday, December 24, 2004 10:33 PM Subject: [pof-300] Ben Seattle challenges Janx (RCYB supporter) to show he is for real
============================================================ Ben Seattle challenges Janx to show he is for real ============================================================ Excerpts from thread at: http://atlanta.indymedia.org/newswire/display/35300/index.php Hi Janx, Ok, I read the first of the articles that you recommended (ie: dictatorship and democracy). The speech, together with the questions and answers, totalled more than 70 thousand words (ie: 92 pages when I printed it out with half inch margins). Considering that the RCP, in spite of its problems, does a number of useful things in the movement -- I take it seriously as a political trend -- and at least once every ten years I will read an article by your chairman Bob, even though he is one of the most long-winded and digressive speakers since the death of the charlatan Hardial Bains. So I am now good until the year 2015. I had to read in his speech all these _stories_ about Krushchev, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Kennedy and the Dalai Lama in order to better understand how your group believes that society will be run after the bourgeoisie are overthrown. These stories can be useful history to many activists who know very little of the real history of this century. But to me it was somewhat painful to wade thru all this stuff because I have been around the block and am already familiar with it all. ------------------------------------------------------------ Why many activists dislike the RCP ------------------------------------------------------------ I know that many of the RCP's supporters are sensitive to perceived disrespect of their organization. If my remarks here appear to be flippant or borderline disrespectful -- please understand that I want to encourage other activists to communicate and engage with you and intend to demonstrate to other activists, who may read these words, that it is possible to communicate with your group without either (a) trashing you completely or (b) displaying an overly reverential attitude which deadens the spirit of calling you on your mistakes. Many activists in the movement intensely dislike your group. I think that the main reasons for this are (1) a perception of cult-like behavior by your group and (2) an instinctive disgust with your theoretical views concerning how society will be run after bourgeois rule is overthrown (ie: you guys really do believe that your organization will be running things during this period and will, during times of crisis, have final say concerning who is allowed to speak and who will need to be suppressed as a "counter-revolutionary"). I am not going to address the issue of cult-like behavior. There are a lot of groups on the left with strange or manipulative behavior and nobody is perfect. I do not want to get bogged down into discussion of what does (or does not) constitute annoying or frustrating behavior because, frankly, in the context of the present exchange between you and me -- this is not really important. If the two of us can talk to one another as one activist to another -- and if we can treat one another with respect -- and make an effort to listen to one another -- then there is a basis for sincere and productive discussion. Nor am I in the least bit frightened of your theoretical views (ie: your views of Mao or Stalin or your assessment that, while they were alive, the Soviet Union and China represented a form of workers' rule). The anarchists, of course, are really frightened by your views -- because they actually imagine (as do you) that you might come to power and, in the context of a crisis, shut them up. I have more confidence in the working class than this. No group (or collection of groups) is going to win the respect and attention of the working class (much less lead the working class to victory against the bourgeoisie) until it demonstrates that it actually understands the conditions of modern society well enough to dispose of the mythology that has accumulated over many decades concerning the "DOP" (ie: the dictatorship of the proletariat). ------------------------------------------------------------ Smashing myths ------------------------------------------------------------ The first myth is that the "DOP" is really the dictatorship of a party. The bourgeoisie promotes this line, the Soviet and CHinese revisionists promoted this line -- and so do you (see above: "at the beginning of socialism it will very likely seem like it"). The second myth is that the ruling party/state will suppress criticism (ie: suppress the democratic rights of speech, organization and assembly) from sources it does not like. These myths grew out of the Soviet and Chinese experiences. During the period in which Lenin was alive the party and the state _were_ merged and the party/state _did_ suppress its critics. Lenin did not apologize for these things because they were necessary emergency measures in the wake of a civil war that had shattered the economy and created a famine in which 20 million died. But Lenin never called these emergency measures "socialism". He did (at various times) call these measures the "dictatorship of the proletariat" and this has, unfortunately, led to a great deal of confusion -- because the working class, as a _class_, never ruled in Russia. What existed instead was the rule of a party which was determined to create the conditions that would make this possible (ie: a functioning economy and the democratic rights that could not be restored in the absence of a functioning economy without setting in train a series of events that would have quickly resulted in a restoration of bourgeois rule). Unfortunately, the restoration of the shattered economy took more than ten years -- and by that time the ruling party appears to have degenerated (and to become the organizing center for a new ruling class). The emergency measures which Lenin instituted, and which were intended to be temporary, became enshrined as supposedly permanent features of workers' rule -- and the permanent suppression of the independent political voice and independent political life of the working class was justified by a new state religion called "marxism-leninism". These myths have been promoted by Stalinists and Trotskyists alike -- and by the bourgeoisie -- and have resulted in a "crisis of theory" which makes it very difficult for even the most serious and militant activists to understand, in a realistic way, what the alternative to bourgeois rule will look like in the context of a modern developed society under stable conditions (ie: with a functioning economy, a working class majority, not in the midst of civil war or under major military attack by imperialist powers, etc). ------------------------------------------------------------ confronting the crisis of theory ------------------------------------------------------------ Any serious and sober attempt to confront the crisis of theory (as it applies to a modern country like the U.S. with a developed economy and communications infrastructure) must recognize that it will be neither necessary (nor even possible) to suppress, on a long-term basis, the basic democratic rights of the population to either voice their views -- or to become familar with the views of others (even if these views are reactionary). A real workers' state, under modern conditions, will instead work to suppress reactionary views only in those forms of communication that are based on commercial resources (ie: forms of communication that make use of paid labor rather than volunteer labor, or similar commercial resources). Forms of speech that are outside of the commodity sphere (ie: web sites, leaflets or newsletters by individuals or groups on the basis of volunteer labor and which receive no money from advertizing, etc) will be essentially unregulated by the workers' state. This alone will cut the bourgeois apologists down to size -- where they will be confronted by the energy (and the bitter experience) of the masses who will expose and defeat them in millions and billions of individual public encounters. ------------------------------------------------------------ Efforts of the RCP to correct its errors ------------------------------------------------------------ The most interesting thing about Avakian's speech is that it appears to represent a certain striving (within both the ranks and the leadership of the RCP) to make contact with reality. Voices in your organization (including chairman Bob) are begining to recognize that you actually know a lot less than you thought you did. Even Bob, himself, admits that sometimes he has read things that he has written -- and realized that it is bullshit. The problem that the RCP faces, as it struggles to develop more scientific views and overcome the cultish beliefs and practices that hold it back and are annoying to many activists, is two-fold: (1) the need to hold the organization together (2) the need to remain focused on its core mission: the mobilization of the working class for the overthrow of bourgeois rule In his 70 thousand word speech, chairman Bob discussed his concern that the RCP would be pulled in different directions (ie: split or disintegrate) by comparing the situation to the old English practice of "quartering" where stout ropes would be tied from each of a person's arms and legs to four strong horses which would pull the person apart. This is a painful prospect and reasonable concern. The organization which I supported (ie: the Marxist-Leninst Party) disintegrated in confusion in 1993 under the pressure of attempting to confront the crisis of theory and place its views on a more scientific basis. Amid acrimonious infighting, two-thirds of the members of the MLP collapsed into complete passivity. Much of the rest of the organization retreated into sectarianism (ie: the Communist Voice Organization -- which in spite of its problems still does a fair amount of useful work for its size -- just like the RCP). A few people around the MLP became outright reformists -- kissing the ass of Social-Democracy and the left wing of the Democratic Party that they had formerly denounced (correctly) as flunkies of the bourgeoisie. I think that the description of your organizational project needing to be a "solid core with a lot of elasticity" is a reasonable way to approach this. You guys need to be able to talk to one another (as well as to activists and to people like me) in a calm way as you all work to come down to earth in such a way that your organization does not disintegrate into passivity, reformism or sectarianism (ie: more than it is already sectarian). It will become clear, with time, that many of your current positions in relation to Stalin, Mao, your exalted chairman himself and "MLM" are untenable. The danger is that, as this happens, many around your organization will also conclude that your basic mission (ie: the overthrow of bourgeois rule and its replacement with workers' rule) is unrealistic. So I would think it would be better for your organization to undergo a "soft landing", so to speak, rather than to crash like the MLP did. The working class needs a genuine mass revolutionary organization. Such an organization does not currently exist. It will need to be created -- and it will be. And I see no reason that people around your group could not play a principled and useful role in this process. ------------------------------------------------------------ Theoretical poverty (example # 1) ------------------------------------------------------------ Janx: > I also want to genuinely encourage you > to dig into these documents and > let us know what you think Well, Janx, I have the ability to tell _you_ what I think (if you are prepared to listen). To what extent my views will penetrate up the ranks of your organization to the people who prepared the very poorly thought-thru "Battle For The Future" leaflet -- I am frankly, very deeply skeptical. The comments that Avakian makes in his speech that are directly related to the attitude of your group concerning the democratic rights of the masses after the overthrow of bourgeois rule -- could probably be put on a single page (instead of spread diffusely over 92 pages). What we find out is that the RCP recognizes that a revolutionary government would find a greater need to "tighten the reins" during periods in which it was weak and insecure -- and would feel less of a need to do this during periods when it felt strong and secure. And this may be true. But nowhere does you organization recognize that any revolutionary government which denies the basic democratic rights (ie: speech, assembly, organization, agitation, etc) to the working class as a whole cannot be said to represent the rule of the working class as a class -- ie: cannot be said to constitute the "dictatorship of the proletariat" but can, _at best_, be said to represent the dictatorship of a group which _intends_ to create the D of P. Nowhere does your organization recognize that, in the context of a modern, stable society, it will be neither necessary (nor even possible) for a revolutionary government to silence the voices of its political opponents (whether the voices of worker critics or reactionary critics) over the long term. Avakian gives a highly disingenuous example of a situation where the ruling party/state might need to suppress the voice of critics: > I was having another discussion with > another poet, and he was arguing that > you really shouldn't suppress ideas, > you really have to let all these ideas > come out, and then criticize the things > that you think are wrong and let people > learn. And I said: "Well, that's good > as a principle, and it should be applied > to a significant degree, but you can't > make an absolute out of that." And I > gave this example: imagine if you were > trying to build a new society, and you > go down the street and at every street > corner are paintings of women being > raped and Black people being lynched. > Do you think you could build a new > society with those images assaulting > people at every turn? Some things you > have to put your foot down and say > "This will not be allowed, because if > it is, the masses of people are going > to be demoralized and disoriented, and > the reactionaries are going to be > emboldened." Excuse me but this is exactly how charlatans argue. When was the last time, Janx, that you, living under conditions of bourgeois democracy, walked down the street and were confronted at every corner with such clear incitements to rape and lynching? Is this supposed to be a realistic example of why a revolutionary government would need to silence the voices of its critics? ------------------------------------------------------------ Theoretical poverty (example # 2) ------------------------------------------------------------ Elsewhere, while discussing the need for "freedom of expression, freedom of ideas", Avakian says: > if you want to put it crudely -- we can't > promise the intellectuals some of the > same things that the bourgeoisie is able > to afford them now. I think that this sums up where the RCP, and many other similar groups, fail to understand the material conditions of modern society. Taken literally, of course, an argument could be made that Avakian is correct. Today, for example, the bourgeoisie can say to someone like Rush Limbaugh or Tom Leykis (if you want to call them intellectuals) that they can make millions of dollars spouting reactionary nonsense. That, of course, is not going to happen when society is ruled by the working class. People like Limbaugh or Leykis will be able to spout reactionary poison if they want -- but they won't be able to make any money doing so -- nor will anyone with money be able to use that money to _amplify_ the volume of their reactionary garbage. How will this work? Anti-people demogogues (and reactionaries of all sorts) will have the right to spew their poison only in the sphere of media that is free of commodity relations. Reactionary ideologues derive much of their power from the fact that their voice is amplified a million fold by the resources of the wealthy. Once this artifical amplification is eliminated (ie: by a revolutionary government which expresses the democratic will of the masses by regulating all media which is commercial or is backed by commercial resources) the reactionary demogogues will be cut down to size and find themselves overwhelmed by the energy and experience of the masses. This is fundamental because, by making a clear distinction between commercial media (which the revolutionary government will have the right to regulate) and free media (which will remain essentially unregulated), the potential for the abuse of power is reduced enormously. History informs us that whenever the potential to suppress has existed -- it has eventually been used to suppress the voice of the masses. Even Mao himself, by way of example, was unable to get his essays (which launched the Proletarian Revolution) published in Beijing (he eventually was able to publish in Shanghai). The _rights_ of the masses to openly criticise and organize against the incompetence, hypocrisy and corruption that will inevitably emerge even in the workers' state -- will be _fundamental_ to the dictatorship of the proletariat in the context of modern, stable conditions. Technology helps us to see this -- because censorship in an economy that is based on a modern communications infrastructure -- is becoming increasingly impractical. For example, the corrupt, revisionist Chinese government is already finding that it requires an ever-larger army of censors to maintain control of the electronic discourse in public forums -- and as internet usage in China continues to expand -- their problems in this sphere are growing exponentially. The concerns of activists that the RCP has a "totalitarian" agenda has emerged as a major stumbling block in the ability of the RCP to "change the terms" of the political debate in society (the term "totalitarian" for example can be found 14 times in Avakian's speech and the Q&A that follows). But the RCP is unable to confront this challenge _directly_ because they do not understand the material conditions of modern society -- they do not understand that the media sphere will be a thousand times richer in proletarian society -- they do not understand how the media ecosystem will function as a result of the interplay between the regulated commercial media sector and the unregulated free media sector. This is why Avakian's timidity on this topic is _hidden_ (ie: buried under the protection of 92 pages of discursive long-winded ramblings about Krushchev, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Kennedy, Ferdinand Marcos, the Shah of Iran, Howard Dean, David Letterman, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky and the Dalai Lama) in the course of a speech that spends 98% of its content talking about the hypocrisies to be found under bourgeois democracy -- and 2% of its content attempting to make apologies for the mistaken notion that a genuine workers' state (supported by the overwhelming majority of the population) will need to be afraid of (and will need to suppress) the voices of its opponents. This is why the leaflet "The Battle For The Future" does not contain a single word about democratic rights but can simply repeat stale and clueless phrases about "unleashing" or "embracing" the masses. We can do better than this. ------------------------------------------------------------ My challenge to Janx ------------------------------------------------------------ Since you admit, Janx, that I am raising very important questions -- and you also admit that you know nothing about them -- then why not read some of _my_ work where I give answers to these questions? I am a theoretician who is focused on resolving the crisis of theory and, in particular, on the nature of workers' rule in the context of a modern, stable society (ie: such as you and I live in). Comrade Bob says that people around your party need to get better at dealing with ideas -- so why don't you become familiar with some of my ideas? You can start by reading the two articles I listed above: Proletarism is anti-revisionist Marxism for the 21st century http://struggle.net/proletarism Politics, Economics and the Mass Media when the working class runs the show http://struggle.net/ALDS/essay_153_content.htm And, if you want to go a little bit deeper than the relatively short articles above -- you can look at my article "The World for which We Fight" (ie: part 7 of the Anarcho_Leninist Debate on the State at http://struggle.net/ALDS ). More than this, you can join me on the pof-200 email list -- which is focused on the crisis of theory as well as other tasks which are decisive in the struggle to overthrow bourgeois rule. The pof-200 list allows all subscribers to post only once a week (this is to maintain an acceptable signal-to-noise ratio on a list which includes many young people who may not always understand that they are clueless). Send email to: pof-200-subscribe (at) yahoogroups.com List info at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pof-200/ The list could certainly use someone, like yourself, who has experience in the revolutionary movement. I should be clear, however, that I am inviting _you_ (or any serious activists who may be reading this Indymedia post) to participate in the life of the list with your _own_ views and opinions. Activists who simply post the "latest" from their organization without taking the time to answer questions about it or engage in discussion -- are encouraged to go somewhere else. So this is my challenge to you, Janx. I read the 70,000 word speech by a long-winded leader "the likes of which this country has never seen before" -- and I now challenge you to read some of what I have written -- and to tell me what you think of it -- on the pof-200 list. I can assure you that my work is far more concise and focused than that of chairman Bob. Sincerely and revolutionary regards, Ben Seattle http://struggle.net/ben ============================================================ Appendix -- previous portions on the same Indymedia thread ============================================================ Excerpted from: http://atlanta.indymedia.org/newswire/display/35300/index.php ------------------------------------------------------------ step up and Battle For The Future!!!! by Janx 19 Dec 2004 ------------------------------------------------------------ The RCYB and other communist forces in Atlanta are organizing to massively distribute this statment to hundreds of thousands of people in Atlanta and the suroounding areas. To do this The flyer is now availble in the Atlanta area for people to get bundles of! We aim to distribute millions of copies of this statement across the country in the next few weeks. Our goal is to have a major impact on society. To change the terms of the debate. To help build a massive movement of resistance to the Bush juggernaut of war and fascism that will manifest in the streets across of this county on inauguration day and beyond. To bring our dreams of a different future into reality. To let people know we have a leader in RCP Chairman Bob Avakian that can lead a mighty struggle to make revolution and remake all of society- with his pathbreaking vision of a society we would really WANT to live in. If you have not already done so, read the statement. Let us know what you think. Bring your ideas, your creativity your questions and yes yes yes your disagreements to us and help figure out how we can rise to the occasion. Strategize with us on how to spread it to every corner of the U.S.- red and blue states, campuses and universities, rural ares, suburbs and cities. ------------------------------------------------------------ Reply to Janx re: democratic rights by Ben Seattle 19 Dec 2004 ------------------------------------------------------------ Quote from Janx: "Let us know what you think. Bring your ideas, your creativity your questions and yes yes yes your disagreements to us and help figure out how we can rise to the occasion" Ok Janx, give some thought to the questions I raise above related to the nature of democratic rights in a modern, economically developed society after bourgeois rule has been overthrown. This will help your organization rize to the occasion. Will workers' rule necessarily assume the form of the rule of a single party that has final say over who is (and who is not) allowed to express his views? If your organization cannot give thoughtful replies to critics (including a correct answer to questions related to democratic rights in post-bourgeois society) then you may not yet be deserving of the respect and attention of the working class. Ben Seattle http://struggle.net/ben ------------------------------------------------------------ Re: The Battle For The Future Will Be Fought From Here Forward! by janx 22 Dec 2004 ------------------------------------------------------------ "Ben Seattle" raises some very important and deep questions, despite the unnecessarily hostile tone and approach. Among the contradictions he speaks to is, when a revolutionary communist party wins a revolution and has state power, will it not become a police state as well? In fact Ben goes on to say that this is exactly what happened in China and the Soviet Union. I do not want to undervalue or underrate to extreme importance of deeply thinking through and understanding the questions that Ben raises. However at this moment I can only make a brief reply and cannot answer all the contradictions that he raises. Another point, I do not want to pretend that I have all the answers to these questions, like so many others, I am trying to learn how to change the world. I think its important to engage what Bob Avakian has been writing about recently, we all need to RE-envision socialism and communism. He is challenging all communists to look back through our history with a scientific and fearless methodology and learn from both the positive and negative lessons. The proletariat (those that who are most exploited by the capitalist mode of production) is the class who has the most interest in overthrowing capitalism and running a society in the interests of humanity. Any society in a class divided world will be run by the interests of one class or another. Socialist society is the society in which the proletarian classes' interest is in controland setting the terms of society. But this is not to say that newly emerging capitalists (including and in particular, members of the communist party) will not try to overthrow the rule of the masses. The society I am talking about is called the dictatorship of the proletariat, and it is in opposition to the current capitalist society and vastly more democratic than the society we live in today, the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie (aka bourgeois democracy). The dictatorship of the proletariat (DOP) during socialism, is a necessary step to bringing a better world into being. Now, what Ben poses is that this DOP is really a dictatorship of the revolutionary communist party. And, in all honesty, at the beginning of sociailism it will very likely seem like it. It will be a major challenge and necessity for all genuine revolutionaries to build new organs of state power asap that allow more and more of the masses of people to run and rule all society. Some of the organs of power will have to have been built during the revolutionary period. Yet this is not and will not be enough!!! Bob Avakian has been writing extensively on these questions. How do we "expand the we" under socialism? Why dissent and debate are necessary and must be embraced under socialism, not suppressed and crushed! That the masses have been kept from learning how to work with ideas, that this contradiction (between those that are trained to work with their minds, and those that are trained to work with hands) must be overcome as a part of the masses more and more firmly ruling all of society. and much more. Like I said before I cannot write much at this time. I encourage you to read the recent series of article by Bob Avakian on Dictatorship and Democracy. I think in these article you may find that you do not know the RCP's perspective as well as you may think! lol, and hopefully you will find this very refreshing! http://rwor.org/bob_avakian/new_speech/avakian_democracy_dictator ship_speech.htm In the most recent issue of the Revolutionary Worker an article was published on epistemology. What Bob Avakian talks about in this article is a real advance from the traditional thinking in the international communist movement, including that of Lenin and Mao. I encourage you to check this article out. ------------------------------------------------------------ Re: The Battle For The Future Will Be Fought From Here Forward! by janx 22 Dec 2004 ------------------------------------------------------------ Sorry about the double reply, if a mod could take care of that it would be great, I apologize for the inconvenience. Ben said "Ok Janx, give some thought to the questions I raise above related to the nature of democratic rights in a modern, economically developed society after bourgeois rule has been overthrown. This will help your organization rize to the occasion." I agree totally! This is a deep question (as I spoke to in my last reply a bit) and needs a lot of thought. How do we bring into being a new society in which the seeds of a whole new and better world are being planted, and a society that people would want to live in; all the while not setting the masses up for defeat. The extent to which revolutionaries give thought to these question has everything to do with whether or not we will rise to the occasion. And it may interest you to know that it is exactly this question (and questions related to this) that Bob Avakian has speaking to and bringing new insights and understanding to. Dictatorship and Democracy, and the Socialist Transition to Communism http://rwor.org/chair_e.htm#democracyspeech On Proletarian Democracy and Proletarian Dictatorship--A Radically Different View of Leading Society http://rwor.org/chair_e.htm#onproletarian I also want to genuinely encourage you to dig into these documents and let us know what you think about what our leader is saying. Like it asked in the RCP statement at the top of this page "Will you bring your ideas, your creativity, your questions and yes, your disagreements to us, and help figure out how we can rise to the occasion?" Clearly you have stepped up, and are bringing your questions and some of your perceived disagreements (as well as some very real ones). Lets keep up this conversation, as before, my email is at the top of this thread. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. 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