Winner!?
-----Original Message----- From: Ronald Methvin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 2:37 pm Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Secret Invasion #8 Rant with EXTREME SPOILERS Would it be going to fall to say Ill-gloomy-naughty? --- On Sat, 12/6/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Secret Invasion #8 Rant with EXTREME SPOILERS To: [email protected] Date: Saturday, December 6, 2008, 9:43 AM Just for clarification, I think the term "Ill-gloomy-nati" is hilarious.? I just didn't care for the group in the comic itself.? Sorry for any confusion. The Irredeemable Shag http://onceuponageek.com -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Secret Invasion #8 Rant with EXTREME SPOILERS From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, December 06, 2008 9:37 am To: [email protected] Hey gang - Sorry I didn't chime in earlier.? I needed some time to put together my thoughts on this one.? First I'll address y'alls points, then make a few of my own. Ever since Civil War, Terry and I have been on opposite sides of almost every Marvel issue.? Well... our opinions on Secret Invasion are a lot more similar than they are different. Norman Osborn's Popularity Ravenface completely hit it on the head when he called Norman Osborn by the name Lex Luthor.? What is happening with Osborn is somewhat similar to the concepts in the President Lex storyline. They've been building up to Norman Osborn's popularity in the Thunderbolts book for a few issues now.? I can sort of see the general public forgiving Osborn for his previous actions.? He was a popular business man before he was known as the Green Goblin (not sure if that is public knowledge anymore).? However, the reason they've been giving us for Osborn's popularity nowadays is that he leads the Thunderbolts that are "doing good".? More on that in a second. By the way, I did NOT enjoy the Warren Ellis run on Thunderbolts.? I liked some of the drama between the characters, but I still believe it was Suicide Squad on steroids.? The villains on the team are so irredeemable (pun intended) that it's hard to enjoy reading a monthly book in which they are the protagonists.? That leads me to the issue with Osborn's popularity.? Osborn has become popular because he leads the Thunderbolts?? No way.? I can't see the American public cheering when the government sends Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, and the Uni-bomber off to battle bank robbers in downtown New York.? Makes no sense what-so-ever. To play devil's advocate with myself, assuming you can accept that Osborn is popular for leading the Thunderbolts (which is f-ing crazy), I can understand why he's now the big hero of the nation.? Sure there were dozens of heroes there attacking Spider-Queen, but Osborn is a regular guy.? He's "one of us".? So the fact that he delivered the killing blow to the Spider-Queen makes him the best of everyone. Savage Land ship/Iron Man's rescused in #8 I agree with Ravenface, it would have been better if the Savage Land ship had some real heroes in it, rather than all being Skrulls.? Especially considering issue #8 ended with a very similar ship full of people.? It just seemed weird from a storytelling angle to have two almost identical ships, one with Skrulls only, one with humans only.? Seems like a missed opportunity.? Also, having all the heroes arrive back on Earth safe and sound at the end of issue #8 was a little too neat and boring.? Final thought.. Mockingbird?? Seriously?? She's been dead for like 15 years.? Everyone else had only been missing for a few months.? Why has she been gone so long?? Seems a little forced, like an editorial/writer decision to help create the cast of a subsequent series. Marvel vs. DC Events I agree that Marvel does events better.? I've been saying for a while now that DC only thinks as far as the next big event book.? And DC's focus is on the event book itself.? Whereas Marvel is trying to decide what their entire universe will look like in a few years.? Although, World War Hulk didn't really impact the Marvel Universe as a whole My Thoughts on Secret Invasion What was the point of this mini-series?? I understand the point of the Skrull invasion storyline that has been running through most Marvel comics for about a year now, but what was the purpose of these 8 issues?? I don't think they even told a complete story.? Without reading both Avengers title, did these 8 issues even make sense?? It seems to me this mini-series should have been a four issue wrap up published within the Avengers titles themselves.? It would have made a lot more sense published there, rather than as a stand alone story. The Big Showdown I had to go back and re-read issues #6-#8 just to figure out the climax.? It was so decompressed that I missed some of the gaping plot holes during the first reading.? In issue #6 the Skrulls clearly have control of the entire planet.? There appears to be hundreds or thousands of Super-Skrulls spread across the planet.? Then a bunch of Skrulls gather in Central Park for the big battle.? I have to assume that ALL of the Skrulls weren't in Central Park.? In issue #8, Spider-Queen is killed.? Okay, I get that without the leader, the Skrull army might flounder.? However, there should still be hundreds or thousands of Super-Skrulls across the planet causing havoc.? And check this out... it takes 2 1/2 issues to show the big hand-to-hand Central Park battle.? Okay, that takes care of a certain portion of Skrulls on the planet and their leader.? However, there is an ENORMOUS Skrull space fleet floating above the Earth.? These warships should be infinitely more powerful than an individual Skrull.? So you'd think it would be a challenge for the heroes to battle this space fleet.? Nah, don't be silly!? While it might take 2 1/2 issues for all the Marvel Heroes and Villains to beat up some individual Super-Skrulls hand-to-hand, a handful of Earth heroes (who are tired and beaten up quite a bit) can destroy the entire Skrull space fleet in one page.? Yup, that's all it took.? One page to destroy the enormous armada.? That's pretty weak storytelling to me. Issue #8 Issue #8 itself seemed to just be a preview for "Dark Reign", rather than part of "Secret Invasion".? While I've been following Thunderbolts so the Osborn stuff wasn't surprising, it came out of left field for the "Secret Invasion" mini-series itself. In regard to the "Ill-gloomy-nati", I couldn't care less.? Given how shocking the ending of "Secret Invasion" was being promoted, I expected a lot more.? To be honest, I expected Secret Invasion to end with the Skrulls winning.? I expected the last page to be a big reveal that "him" (the Skrull god) was actually someone like Kang or Doctor Doom. I wasn't terribly wowed by the previous Illuminati stories, so I care even less about the "Ill-gloomy-nati".? First of all, I agree with Terry about Osborn bossing around Doom and and Loki?? Doubt it.? Second, Emma Frost?? C'mon.? Why do they keep pretending that the X-Men corner of the Marvel universe cares (or is affected) by the mainstream Marvel universe crossovers.? There is no impact in the X-Men titles themselves, just the occasional mini-series that addresses the crossover topics (X-Men: Secret Invasion, X-Men: Civil War, etc). Closing Thoughts With all this complaining, you might be surprised to hear that I'm actually a HUGE fan of Bendis' Avengers run.? I think it's been great!? However, I get the sense that Secret Invasion was an amazing storyline Bendis had planned for the Avengers comics that was stolen by Editorial and turned into the disappointing crossover of the year. The Irredeemable Shag http://onceuponageek.com -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Secret Invasion #8 Rant with EXTREME SPOILERS From: "Terry Morton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Fri, December 05, 2008 3:20 pm To: [email protected] It's true that the Hoo-doo that he do comes from Dormammu. ? I like your theory on Wasp's current location.? She always wanted to hook up with Thor back in the day anyways; so, now she has her chance!? Go get him, Tigress! On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 1:40 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Oh!? It is Namor.? That is cool.? Super Villain Team-Up! I think the Hood gets his Hoo-doo from The Dread Dormammu. Yes, for such a big moment, you would think the art would have been clear.? When Clor (what happened to him anyway?) killed Black Giant, it was more impressive.? I wanted Hammer Time. She's probably sleeping in a harem in Asgard even now. Let's get Shag to spread Ill-gloomy-nati around the internet.? We'll be famous! -----Original Message----- From: Terry Morton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:32 pm Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Secret Invasion #8 Rant with EXTREME SPOILERS I think the Illgloomynati consists of: Norman Osborn, Emma Frost, Namor, Dr. Doom, Loki, and?the Hood.? I can see Dr. Doom, Namor, and Loki working together, but I'm not so sure about the rest.? I get that they're all sort-of?evil duplicate?versions of the Illuminati, but it feels forced.? I like that Namor is his own evil duplicate. ? I think that the guy that you think is Mephisto is the Hood, who gets his powers from Mephisto (I think). ? I think Thor transported her away.? I'm guessing the hurricanes were sup posed to be indicative of that, but he usually just opens up a portal, sans hurricane.? The art for that scene was really awkward. On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:32 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Those are all very good points, and you're right, Osborn is being elevated beyond his station.? I think writers do that because they think they are "rescuing" a character or want to be the guy who makes him big or feel like all the Dr. Doom stories have been told.? Like, Geoff Johns just finished the Ultimate Toy Man arc and Darkseid should be banned from comics for twenty years.? Sometimes it seems right, and sometimes it doesn't.? I think they feel like there's some kind of need to have a big corporate bad guy in the universe, and it was Tony for a while and now Osborne is supposed to fill the void.? It also seems weird that the focus of the series shifted to him suddenly at the end.? But, I do like that the whole thing begins with the Illuminati and ends with the Ill-gloomy-nati. Osborn gets their ear because of the way he was able to infiltrate the good guys, but for Mephisto to be at the table is retarded.? We've learned if he doesn't like something he can remake the universe.? I don't know how they're going to get us to accept that.? Who is the guy on the left?? Black Adam?? Nightmare?? Attuma? It's always weird when Spider-Man or Batman villains take center stage, since they would be so easily defeated by a cosmic-level hero.? Like Wonder-Man could have Stegron and The Shocker all wrapped up and still have time for an audition. It took a long time for me to figure out what happened to the Wasp.? I guess Thor made a hurricane to tear her up, but it sure wasn't clear.? I'll stand by the Trump story a little bit more, since the whole situation was chaos and there was so much to see and so many heroes and villains and fighting that one clear decisive action and moment like that would stand out. Bendis' stories "counting" is the combo of a stronger editorial hand at the wheel as you say.? By all accounts Dildo is as crackers as Norman Osborn and can't commit to a course of action.? I will try and put why I like Bendis' writing in a separate post.? I will say that he cleared the path for Brubaker, though.? Like I think that significant Bendis Daredevil run primed folks for the noiry pacing of Captain America, etc. I love Brubaker more than Bendis, by the way, and I think Slott is hilarious.? I have been loving The Initiative. Ok, Simon -----Original Message----- From: Terry Morton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 9:17 am Subject: [The Unique Geek] Re: Secret Invasion #8 Rant with EXTREME SPOILERS Well, that's not really my only problem with the story - it was more of a "That really?makes no sense" sort of thing. ? Your analogy of Donald Trump shooting Osama bin Laden before Governor Schwarzenegger could punch him isn't really a good fit to what happened in the story.? It'd be more like if Donald Trump shot Osama after Arnold having single-handedly disarmed a bomb nearby and having?surrounded him with the California National Guard closing in for the kill.? No one in their right mind would think that Donald was the hero, since he didn't really do anything other than pull the trigger once the problem had already been resolved by Arnold. ? Seriously, you can boil the ending of Secret Invasion down to "Thor saved the day, but Norman Osborn got all the credit.? Oh yeah, and Wasp died." ? I believe that people in this country are forgiving and all, but?elevating Norman Osborn to such a high position is?sort of like having Ted Bundy become Secretary of the De partment of Defense.? It also makes no sense.? I only bought the first couple of issues of the Ellis run on Thunderbolts but dropped it?because I didn't like the direction. ? My other problem with Norman Osborn is the fact that we now have Dr. Doom and Loki deferring to him.? I get that they're supposed to be this Dark Illuminati and all that, but I don't think that would ever happen.? Norman Osborn doesn't have the street cred to be elevated to that status in the villain category either. ? I think the actual amount of story that was contained in the 8 issue mini could have been put into, like, 4 issues.? Half the issues were about people saying how bad everything was, without really anything else happening.? It's like Bendis had some ideas that he just kind of let die on the vine.? What the heck was the point of even having the Grant Morrison Marvel Boy in this story?? He didn't do anything.? I mean, he may be sort of trying to lay groundwork for having him in Dark Avengers or something, but he didn't really add anything to this event. ? Is Bendis being able to tell a story that "matters" a function of his own personal awesomeness, or is it more of a function of Marvel?having a better editorial team with a different direction?? I would think it's the latter.? To be honest, there are some events that I'd just rather be forgotten and l eft to dissolve back into the ether (Amazons Attack, anything that happened in Countdown).? The current Marvel style of editing seems to be to "force" all titles into being part of whatever the Event of the Month is (Ed Brubaker titles seem to be an exception to this rule).? DC doesn't seem to do this, at least in the titles I'm reading.? Their events are mostly self-contained with a few mini-series and one-shots along with the Event book.? Of course, different lines have their own "events" (Sinestro Corps, New Krypton) that don't seem to affect anyone else, but I'm okay with that.? I'd honestly rather not read about 100,000 new Kryptonians in my latest issue of JSA or whatever. ? Bendis is sort of like a DM that forces the players into his story, rather than creating an environment to let them play their characters. ? Sometimes I think that you like Bendis because he comes up with cool ideas (which he does), and your creative brain fills in the?lack of detail that he leaves in his stories.? I'm less creative; so, I think they're crap because I don't fill in as many details as you do.? However, I think my theory may be crap, because if it were true, you'd have thought Countdown and other crappy comics were awesome, and you didn't.? I'm just truly at a loss to understand why you or?anyone else?thinks that Brian Bendis is a good writer based on his Marvel work.? His creator-owned stuff=2 0is good, but everything else is horrible. ? That being said, I thought that the characterization between the members of the Fantastic Four was really good in this issue.? I wasn't thrilled about the Baxter Building insta-fix, but the dialogue between the Four and their kids was great. ? On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:25 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: If that's seriously your only problem with it, then it's sort of not that bad.? Can you imagine if Donald Trump shot Osama bin Laden on live television seconds before Gov. Schwarzenegger could punch him? I think, and I'm no Marvel expert, that Norman Osborne has redeemed himself in the public eye and in the eyes of the govt.for successfully running the Thunderbolts program.? We're a forgiving people.? He was sick, and now he's ok (as far as they know).? The Warren Ellis Thunderbolts run was awesome, btw.? I hope you agree. ? ? My issues with SI were structural, like it should have been a six issue mini.? The art wasn't so awesome that it20deserved endless double page spreads of fighting scenes and the plot was seriously decompressed.? They could easily have told the story in less time and it would have served the story better.? But, ultimately, two "extra" issues is better than fifty-two!! (Countdown!) I also really wish that ship that crashed in the Savage Land had been half skrulls and half humans.? Like, that would have been truly epic and opened up a series of "lost adventures" with the people on that ship.? The first four issues seem like they were leading to something else entirely, and I wonder if there was an editorial shift. Whether you like Bendis or not, he (unlike the DC writers) is able to tell a story (whether you like the story or not) and have it mean something to the universe it's in. The plot points of everything from Avengers Dissassembled to Civil War to this and leading into Dark Reign have touched on all the books in a meaningful way and driven the stories.? It makes for rich continuity.? There's plenty of weak stuff, but 98% of everything everywhere is crap anyway. Marvel gets one million points over DC for having its events MATTER to the Marvel universe.? Nobody in the DC universe seems to care that Batman infected the world with an OMAC virus, that Wonder Woman's people burned down Washington DC or that San Diego flooded.? There's no consistancy.? You might not like that Iron Man turned heel, but it was in every title for years and=2 0drives and informs ongoing and future stories.? If I read any title other than Green Lantern, I don't know the Anti-Monitor showed up and a major city was the scene of a cosmic slaughter.? If I read a minor Marvel title, I know there's a skrull invasion and heroes need to be registered by the government.? Marvel does epic better, and that's a major shift.? Marvel serves its legacy better, and that's a major shift.? You may not like the specifics of the story, but the story counts.? DC can't say that. But, to throw you a bone, I liked Norman Osborne better when he was called Lex Luthor.? -----Original Message----- From: Terry Morton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 3:55 pm Subject: [The Unique Geek] Secret Invasion #8 Rant with EXTREME SPOILERS I am going to completely ruin Secret Invasion for you if you continue reading. ? ? ? ? ? If anyone is still getting this comic and enjoying it, I challenge you to explain to me why it's good.? It's not even so bad it's good - it's just bad. ? Thankfully, Dan Slott, Peter David,?and Ed Brubaker?still work for Marvel. < div>? I'm at a complete loss to try to explain why Norman Osborn would be given Tony Stark's position simply based on the fact that he shot Spider-Skrull Queen one second?before anyone else could get to her first.? That's simply retarded.? Isn't he publicly known to have been the Green Goblin, or did Brand New Day erase that too?? Black is white; up is down; and cats and dogs are living together. ? I'm certainly glad that a founding member of the Avengers could be killed off in such a great storyline.? R.I.P. Wasp. ? For as long as Brian Bendis has control of the Marvel Universe, make mine DC! --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Unique Geek" group. 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