As promised, my response to your questions... at length (my apologies). *Have you encountered any issues or pain/choke points in your workflow with Streams?*
Overall, I'm very impressed with the manner in which Streams does what it does. So, pain points are slight, but there are some of course. I've been a long time Workflowy user, and I often find myself wanting it to work like WF in instances. Furthermore, there is a good chance the pain points are simply from the nature of TW and more an issue of me having to relearn behaviors. - *Hitting enter in a node with text does not always behave the way I want.* - I'm very glad you added the ability to split a tiddler into two nodes by hitting enter. It would really slow down my workflow if that process was inhibited, as I often write full paragraphs into a node, realizing only afterward that they need to be separate paragraphs. If I had to confirm this change every time, it would impede using Streams for writing and notetaking. However, I also expect the reverse behavior because of my time in Workflowy. If I am at the beginning of a node that needs to be connected to the one above it, I expect hitting backspace to join the two nodes. And, of course, Streams doesn't do this, so I find myself regularly attempting this action by reflex. - *Nested nodes stay with an empty node when hitting enter instead of moving with content.* - If I have a node with nested tiddlers and hit enter at the beginning of the text in that node, my expectation is that all the text of that node and the nested nodes under it would move down, creating a new blank tiddler above with nothing in it. Again, this is a Workflowy behavior. However, in Streams, this action leaves all nested information under the blank node created and moves the text from the parent node down into a separate tiddler below everything. - *Ctrl+down does not always behave as I expect.* - If I've collapsed nested nodes and want to switch between top level nodes. For example, if I'm writing an outline, I will have headings. If I collapse the subheadings under each heading and then attempt to use the Ctrl + down function it switches down to the nested node that is not visible (one of the subheadings) instead of switching down to the next heading that is visible. - *Having to add a space at the beginning of a node.* - Finally, there appears to be some quirk where I have to enter a space prior to using a text expander. It will not call the action if I enter the slash as the first character in a new node. So, I have to hit a space and then put it in. - *Search gets confusing.* I've learned to adjust to this, but all of the streams tiddlers show up in search. Most of the time, I only want the parent to show and then I will find what I want on that "main tiddler." However, I periodically have a tiddler created in a stream that rises to the level of a stand alone tiddler, so I would want it to index. I realize the dilemma in all of this. So, I think if we could omit all the children and just index the main parent tiddler for a stream in search, it would be preferrable, since it is possible to just rename a specific stream tiddler and then it could index. At current, when I have one of these special stream tiddlers that I want to also stand alone, the relink gives me the ability to name it with something outside the stream and keep it in the stream. That's probably clear as mud. If you can't tell, I'm still thinking through this one myself. *Are there any features you find yourself wishing that Streams had?* - *Easily adjust max width.* - It would be nice when you develop a configuration panel to include adjustable max width. I've found that line in the style and can easily adjust that way, but having that option in the control panel would be nice. - *Different views would be stellar. *- A Document view, in specific, would be a great addition for me. As mentioned previously, I use this to create a source tiddler for literature notes, then I create an outline tiddler (also with Streams) where I draft the outline of the article I am writing. I can easily drag my notes from source tiddlers to fill in the article outline. With a little manipulation, these notes become paragraphs within the outline. The outline becomes the article. If I could then switch it to a document view that removes the bullets and makes nodes headings, that would be incredible. - *Conditional styles(?)* - Even while in outline form, I wish there was a way to make some styles conditional. Though, I have no idea if that's even a thing CSS can do. For instance, if I turn a node into a heading with !!, it would no longer show the bullet next to it, but still show the bullets on all body text in nested nodes under it. Another instance where this *might* be nice is with a block quote. Though, the ability to see that a block quote is its own tiddler in the stream instead of being part of the above bullet is important info. - *Flattening a whole stream into a tiddler.* - Finally, and I've seen this mentioned in the threads here on the group, the ability to flatten to an article, conflating all tiddlers into one that can then be exported to word processing software for publication. I did see that on your roadmap, and I'm interested in the implementation of that. *Overall in your larger workflow in TiddlyWiki, not just related to Streams, what if any are the roadblocks that slow you down or cause difficulties?* *Export*, but there's a good chance this is mostly ignorance on my part. I'd love a way to export as markdown, or some easy integration with pandoc. A good LaTex export would be dynamite. I know I can export as a static html, but that pulls all of the styles with it from the page, which is great if I want to display it as an html file in my browser, and sometimes I do. It is suboptimal if I just want the text portion of the tiddler, properly formatted, for opening or importing into a word processor or markdown/LaTex editor. I've experimented some with online pandoc tools, and they work to a level, but I'd love to click a button somewhere in TiddlyWiki and make this happen. Again, it may be my ignorance in capability that is prohibiting this at current. *I do not know the horizon of possibility with TiddlyWiki.* There are reams of content written in this Google group and other places on TiddlyWiki, so it's not for want of content. However, I do think (as has been echoed in this group in other threads) that it is a daunting task for someone new to even realize what TiddlyWiki can do. What is clear from my last 4-5 months living in these group threads is that it can do almost anything you want, if you have the knowledge of how to make it do so. That's incredible. And yet, my personal use cases are meager, and clear guides of how to "choose your own adventure" for particular use cases seem missing (or I can't find them). While the ability to capture non-linear, networked thought appears to be the shining strength of TiddlyWiki, it would do well to have some linear explanations, or guides, for easy setup. Linear content has its merit, of course, and it is sometimes the best way to present information or make a specific argument. An easy example is the work that Anne-Laure did recently on her site providing a linear guide for building a nonlinear notetaking tool with TiddlyWiki. Of course, she has a large platform, but I think the ease of her linear explanation to build a particular instance of TiddlyWiki has done much to bring new people into the fold. It was a sizeable plank in my own bridge. Ideally, I wonder if it would be beneficial to come to some form of consensus on the majority use cases (networked notetaking, static website generator, table top gaming and world building, etc.) and then provide some linear walkthroughs of how to build a core instance of TiddlyWiki for those things. Of course, with some discussion of potential options to modify and the caveat that many more things are possible the more you dig. I often hear TiddlyWiki described as a box of Legos from which you can build anything. This much is true; however, a box of Legos most often comes with a set of step-by-step instructions to build the specific thing on the cover. *Are your notes mostly plain text with formatting (bold, italics etc) or do you use a lot of macros and widgets in the actual note taking?* Yes. It's mostly plain text formatting. Very little in the way of images, diagrams, or embedded media of any kind. My current use case is classic notetaking. I need to quickly and easily capture literature notes from sources I am read. I want to capture them in such a way that they (1) are easy to find based on their connections to other ideas and (2) easy to manipulate in an outline. Then, I need a tool where it is easy to organize an outline and fill it out into an article. So, a minimal, easy to use interface that allows for long form writing with as few distractions from toolbars and buttons as possible. I'll probably never have use for mathematics or anything computational in my instances. Though, I realize I'm just one use case for TiddlyWiki. I currently do very little with widgets and macros, though I believe I will do more as I familiarize myself with their ability. I'm still learning to drive TiddlyWiki. I'm very impressed by the things I see people suggesting in this group concerning macros and widgets, and I imagine once I have a populated wiki, I may want to use these to call certain things. I can tell I'm just scratching the surface with this. Thanks, Saq, for your labor on this project. I have this sense that the timing of several developments with TiddlyWiki of late are surfacing it as a very promising tool for people who live and die by knowledge management. Feels kinda like a renaissance of sorts. Do let me know if you have further questions. I appreciate you asking, and am happy to help in any way I can. Blessings, Keelan On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 8:35:03 PM UTC-5 Keelan Cook wrote: > I'm happy to do so. I completely understand the need for feedback to help > focus limited bandwidth. > > Let me think on the questions and get back with you tomorrow. Again, > thanks for the work you've already put into Streams. > > On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 9:55:36 AM UTC-5 [email protected] > wrote: > >> Hi Keelan, >> >> Thank you for the detailed feedback and for explaining the context behind >> your usage. It is very helpful to get a different perspective on things and >> to know that others find it useful. >> >> My TiddlyWiki fiddling is something I do on my own time in addition to >> two fairly demanding day jobs. While it is enjoyable for me, I must admit >> that I carry over from my professional life the desire to be productive and >> efficient in what little time I do have for it. Feedback goes a long way >> towards knowing what to focus my energy and time on. >> >> The combination of the Stories plugin and Streams is what I had in mind >> when I worked on the drag and drop support within Streams. I haven't really >> mentioned this anywhere so I am glad to hear you realized the possiblities >> in this. I think there is need of a bespoke customized TiddlyWiki edition >> around Streams (and other plugins) to fully utilize its potential. For >> example, you could if so desired, get the backlinks in Stroll to reference >> only the root node of each backlink instead of each node. Similarly, the >> search could be adapted to better integrate with Streams tiddlers as well. >> Unfortunately that isn't something I have the time to devote to myself. >> >> I do have a few questions for you if have the time: >> >> 1. Have you encountered any issues or pain/choke points in your >> workflow with Streams? >> 2. Are there any features you find yourself wishing that Streams had? >> 3. Overall in your larger workflow in TiddlyWiki, not just related to >> Streams, what if any are the roadblocks that slow you down or cause >> difficulties? >> 4. Are your notes mostly plain text with formatting (bold, italics >> etc) or do you use a lot of macros and widgets in the actual note taking? >> >> Thank you. >> >> Cheers, >> Saq >> >> >> On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 2:45:23 PM UTC+2, Keelan Cook wrote: >>> >>> Saq, >>> >>> I've been lurking in this group for a few months now, and your comment >>> wondering whether or not people are using Streams has pulled me out of the >>> shadows! I wanted to vocalize how significant this plugin has become to my >>> workflow. >>> >>> A bit of background on my usage. I'm a professor and do a lot of >>> research in history and the humanities. My work requires a really good >>> notetaking workflow. On the other hand, I'm not even close to a programmer. >>> So, I gravitate toward out-of-the-box systems, and they always have pain >>> points. >>> >>> I've fiddled with TiddlyWiki off and on for several years. I've always >>> wanted it to work for me, because I really admire the project. But, the >>> ease of editing and quick note capture (as well as design aesthetics) >>> usually ended my attempts and sent me back to other tools. Enter Streams. >>> >>> Like many others in this group, over the last 2-3 months the rise of >>> TiddlyWiki as a Roam alternative pulled me back into the conversation. >>> Dave's Stroll was instrumental in getting me back in. I stumbled on several >>> themes that remove distaste for the UI. And then Streams became the pièce >>> de résistance. Quick capture in adjustable outline form that allows for >>> capturing literature notes and then drafting up outlines for longer form >>> articles and books. I use your Stories plugin as well. I can pull up a >>> Stream tiddler with source notes on one side and drag and drop content into >>> my outline for works I'm creating. This is exactly what I've needed. >>> >>> Bimlas echoed my sentiments well in this recent post concerning ways to >>> use TiddlyWiki: >>> https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/Re11x96t-qI/m/GYuMKHx0AQAJ >>> >>> I've been actively working to create my own, bespoke, note-taking >>> environment and I finally feel like all the pieces are there in TiddlyWiki >>> to do so. >>> >>> So, I for one, am very interested in your continued work on Streams. >>> It's minimalist, unobtrusive, and powerful for a researcher. I'm happy to >>> provide any feedback that may be helpful to you, understanding I'm only >>> able to speak toward end use and not the coding aspect of it. >>> >>> Thanks so much for your work on this. It's been a game changer for me, >>> and I've recommended it to several others in my field at this point. >>> >>> Keelan >>> >>> On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 1:16:39 PM UTC-5 PMario wrote: >>> >>>> On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 6:13:53 PM UTC+2, Saq Imtiaz wrote: >>>> ... >>>> >>>>> It's actually really nice to get some detailed feedback from real >>>>> world usage, so firstly, thank you! >>>>> >>>> >>>> I did like the fast workflow very much! >>>> >>>> >>>>> I probably haven't tried quite so hard to make time to work on Streams >>>>> recently since there has been radio silence around it, which would >>>>> suggest >>>>> it is either perfect (hah!) or that no one is using it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> :) >>>> >>>> 6) I use [!is[shadow]has[stream-type]] as a stream enable filter. >>>>>> This may change in the future. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I welcome suggestions for a sensible default for this. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Yea, I didn't want to have it with every tiddler. ... But my choice >>>> needs a manual input of the "stream-type: default" field. So I think I'd >>>> need to make a new button. .. So we need a "Streams Icon" ... @anyone? >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 7) I use this line <$vars >>>>>> stream-root-title={{{[<currentTiddler>split[/]limit[1]]}}} in the >>>>>> nodes-list-template. So tiddler names are created as shown in 5) .. >>>>>> NO long node names. ... The disadvantage is, that "sub streams" don't >>>>>> get a (+) >>>>>> new Node button ... Only the "main stream" tiddler has this button. >>>>>> .. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So two things to address here: >>>>> i) have you tried setting this format for tiddler titles in >>>>> $:/config/sq/streams/new-node-title, instead of changing the >>>>> stream-root variable: >>>>> {{{[<stream-root-title>split[/]limit[1]]}}}/<<now >>>>> "[UTC]YYYY0MM0DD0hh0mm0ssXXX">> >>>>> I think this will accomplish the same thing without the need for >>>>> editing nodes-list-template, which may cause issues with the drag and >>>>> drop >>>>> code as well. >>>>> >>>> >>>> You are right. That seems to fix the next problem for me too! >>>> >>>> >>>>> ii) it was a design decision to only have the (+) add node button on >>>>> the root stream, and not the sub nodes. I now see this isn't convenient. >>>>> This will be changed, thank you for pointing it out. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Sorry. I wasn't clear enough. ... I meant "sub nodes" in a separated >>>> tiddler. ... But as written above. Your new-node-title construction seems >>>> to fix both problems, that I had with my "hacks" >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 8) I do like the tiddler-title format as shown in 5), because it >>>>>> automatically creates a visible "timeline", when the nodes have been >>>>>> taken >>>>>> and the core <<tree "DAT-CON/">> macro will be able to deal with it >>>>>> after I did create a new "leaf template" for the macro. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Could you point out the leaf template please? I'd like to add examples >>>>> like these to the documentation. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not sure, what I actually want, yet. ... So I'll update the >>>> DAT-CONF link once I've done more refactoring. ... As you know, I also >>>> want >>>> to make my tocP macro usable with the stream structure. But I'm not sure, >>>> if I should show the "first line of text" or if I should use "caption" or >>>> "subtitle". >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> *My personal hickups* ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> a) I did notice again, that I can't deal with hidden information. >>>>>> a.1) I need the "stream-node-collapser" to be visible as soon as >>>>>> child elements exist, similar to "toc-selective-expandable" >>>>>> a.2) Waiting for the hover effect doesn't work for me. >>>>>> a.3) I need the "collapser" to be in a different colour. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is really just down to a design decision try and find balance >>>>> between usability and clutter where possible, but you have a very valid >>>>> point. I'd love to get more user feedback in order to establish a >>>>> sensible >>>>> default, while allowing this to be customizable. Since this is just CSS, >>>>> it >>>>> can be easily made into a config option that toggles some css in the >>>>> stylesheet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> At the DAT-CON I did a little bit of CSS tweaking >>>> <http://dat-conf-2020.tiddlyspot.com/#CSS> between the video sessions. >>>> ... So I could go on with taking notes ;) >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> b) I need the cheat sheet to be tagged $:/tags/SideBar so I can have >>>>>> it open all the time in the sidebar >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'd actually love some help with tidying up that tiddler to improve >>>>> readability. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding keyboard shortcuts, the bottom line is that they need to be >>>>> made configurable since everyone willl have different needs and >>>>> expectations. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That's right. As I wrote, during a session it's "kind of" OK. .... But >>>> the next day I tend to mess it up, at the beginning. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> - Enter - save and create new node with text after cursor -> *For >>>>>> me personally this functionality is frustrating without an Undo :/ >>>>>> *Especially >>>>>> in "refactoring mode" a day later. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> There is actually commented out code in Streams right now that handles >>>>> an undo. I haven't made that active yet for two reasons: >>>>> i) I want to add a confirmation both for splitting the text at the >>>>> cursor, and for merging back with the previous node >>>>> ii) I have an idea to separate out all such "word processor" features >>>>> to a separate sub-plugin >>>>> >>>> >>>> OK >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> - Alt+Enter - split longer text into multiple nodes. I need a >>>>>> *confirmation >>>>>> dialogue*, even if it is slower. .. Fixing the problem if hitting >>>>>> this combination by accident is a 100 times more time consuming >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> A confirmation dialogue makes sense and will be added. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you again for the detailed feedback, I've added notes on to my >>>>> local copy of the Roadmap and will push it to github once I've had the >>>>> chance to tidy it up. >>>>> >>>> >>>> You are welcome! >>>> >>>> -mario >>>> >>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/42f6a093-c3d9-468e-81c4-1f14afe49a83n%40googlegroups.com.
