Saq,
I will endeavour to share examples of my extensive use of streams. For me
streams may suffer from the same issue of TiddlyWiki as a whole and that is
it is so flexible there may be as many uses as there are users, multiplied
by the number of wikis they have. Some quick thoughts;
- You may recall my input in the first phase of development, suggestions
and ideas that urge a generalises solution, you took this on an have thus
created an extraordinary tool.
- I think this can continue going forward because of this underlying
strength. for example;
- Streams uses a parent and list field to organise nodes, it uses an
automatic naming of tiddlers to let the user ignore this, and focus on
the
content.
- As a result of this ground work I suggest not developing a solution
for "flattening streams", but flattening hierarchical lists because this
is
the same effort and will have even broader applications.
- Also don't really flatten such lists, perhaps mostly visually,
because we should never design solutions that loose information, perhaps
just hide it (see hide not flatten below)
- I suspect many want to flatten a stream to move it, or copy it, again
this is not necessary and potential loss of information. A way to
export/import or drag and drop the whole stream as a JSON is possible
- I have build such a tool for "packages" of tiddlers driven by a
filter, I can share this.
- The reverse process to (apparent) flattening is another generic
solution we could use that would allow any structure such as the table of
contents etc... to be converted to a parent/list structure including
streams.
- As you have done so well, allowing the generation of sub tiddler nodes
titles to be altered is also a great benefit, as well as the ability to
rename node tiddlers. Renaming a tiddler can also change its use eg temp
system to standard tiddler.
- Personally I believe we as a community need to start to share the
algorithms for generating new and unique tiddler titles using different
methods for different purposes. Personally all my streams currently use
the
following so nodes remain hidden until I consciously rename a node to
make
it appear in searches. "$:/s/<<now "[UTC]YY-0MM-0DD 0hh:0mm:0ss XXX">>"
- Recent developments in 5.1.23/24 and 5.2 coming will assist in this
such as variable/macros in filters can now include parameter's, the
"unusedtitle Macro", format title list operator and more.
Hide not flatten
- I have being working on a range of hacks to support easy more and
slider to display or hide content solutions in response to Mats
discussion <https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/discussions/5839>
- I see parallels with flattening where we can use existing, new or
arbitrary html tags to store content in a nested manner without it
showing
in the output.
- Streams can be the beginning of "a maturing of handling outlines
and hierarchies in tiddlywiki", especially their encapsulation in a
single
tiddler or a stream (hierarchical list of tiddlers)
How best may we collaborate and share the load?
Regards
Tones
On Monday, 12 July 2021 at 04:53:22 UTC+10 Saq Imtiaz wrote:
> Hi Walt,
>
> It seems like we are getting our wires crossed and I think I am partly to
> blame for which I apologize. I am very accustomed to speaking to a
> technical audience, OR a completely non-technical one. However here the
> borders are muddled and it has led to me using terms more colloquially than
> technically accurately, which it seems has caused confusion.
>
> What you have created is very impressive and interesting in its own right,
> but not what I was thinking of. So let me take a crack at explaining it
> once more using every day language.
>
> There are two separate topics here:
>
> *1) Understanding how other people use Streams and allowing Streams users
> to learn from each other.*
> We have in this thread descriptions of how several different users make
> use of Streams for their intended purposes. For example this
> <https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/-xTFWPwzq6g/m/FlXPa8dlAQAJ> is
> how Keelan uses Streams. It would be good if we collected and added these
> descriptions of how people are already using Streams to the Streams
> documentation. Assistance with this would be fantastic.
>
> Later on details could be added to this where relevant, like exactly which
> plugin and wiki settings were used and which other plugins. Some users may
> even be comfortable sharing empty copies of their wiki for others to learn
> from.
>
> The key here is that we are talking about descriptions of how people are
> already using Streams. Not how they might hypothetically use it.
>
> *2) The issue of creating better options around export.*
> What would be helpful here is if users that have such a need, shared
> examples of their content. So let's say you used Streams to take notes on
> fertilization methods in a tiddler called "Fertilization". I want to see
> that tiddler and its streams nodes. Additionally, I want to see how you
> would consolidate those nodes into a single tiddler if you had to do it by
> hand.
>
> If you are not comfortable sharing actual tiddlers from your wiki due to
> privacy concerns, then you could create a dummy version that has similar
> content in length etc to your actual tiddlers but does not contain anything
> private. The kind of things I need to understand are: how long are the
> nodes typically? Is it just plain text? Are their widgets? Are their
> images? Tables? etc..
>
> Now if all of your content is similar to the nodes on the Fertilization
> tiddler, then that is enough. However if you are using Streams for creating
> different styles of content, such as say a To Do list, meeting notes and
> writing essays, then such an example for each would be needed.
>
> Let us assume 6 users do this. That will hopefully give me enough examples
> of the content people are writing with Streams to have a better chance at
> coming up with a generalized solution that works for most people.
>
> If any of this still isn't clear, I would suggest we find a time for a
> call to discuss before you put any more effort into it, so as to avoid any
> chance of further misunderstanding.
>
> For the record what you did create is fantastic and if this were a
> properly funded development effort we would indeed be using User Stories
> representing hypothetical users and how they might want to use Streams as a
> starting point to understand what was needed. However, this is one of many
> side projects for someone that has their fingers in far too many pies, so
> that approach isn't feasible.
>
> Regards,
> Saq
> On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 8:14:48 PM UTC+2 ludwa6 wrote:
>
>> OK @Saq: I've taken a little run at creating a wiki to hold UseCase
>> documentation for "TiddlyStreams" ; it's online at
>> tiddlystreams.github.io , and if that looks to you like a move in the
>> right direction, then i'll keep on going with it as time permits. If you
>> or anyone wants to assist, i can add as users to the "tiddlystreams"
>> organization, or i guess anyone can send a PR (it's a public repo)... or
>> else just click the Comment Link (i.e. mailto:) at bottom of each tiddler.
>>
>> Funny thing: your feedback has caused me to question my understanding of
>> the term UseCase, so i did a bit of digging; sounds to me like what you
>> want (if this article
>> <https://www.visual-paradigm.com/guide/agile-software-development/user-story-vs-use-case/>
>> can
>> be considered definitive) is more like a UserStory set, while i- the naive
>> (i.e. non-dev) user in this conversation- have been trying to communicate
>> more in terms of a technical solution. Awkward! (like when i'm insisting
>> on speaking Portuguese to a local who really wants to speak English with me
>> :-)
>>
>> /walt
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 12:13:14 PM UTC+1 [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> @walt
>>>
>>> As to the node-flattening issue.... i would like to see "wikitext" join
>>>> the other 3 options (bullet list, numbered list and paragraphs)
>>>>
>>>
>>> So when I wrote "an actual real world example of what their content in
>>> Streams is like, and what an ideal exported version in a single tiddler in
>>> TiddlyWiki would look like" my expectation was for users to provide wikis
>>> with a representative example of their content in streams nodes, as well as
>>> a single tiddler version of it that they created by hand. For example one
>>> tiddler with some stream nodes, the content of which is representative of
>>> what their content is usually like. Plus one tiddler that is an
>>> amalgamation of those nodes into a single tiddler.
>>>
>>> Having a few such examples might allow generalizing a few export options
>>> that fit most use cases. The problem with receiving proposals for
>>> solutions, rather than detailed description of the problem and related
>>> content, is that often the proposed solutions don't fulfil the actual needs
>>> or consider technical limitations they would impose. For example, your
>>> proposed solution would limit you to only ever having single line content
>>> in all your nodes.
>>>
>>> Regarding use cases/workflows, I was referring to the manner in which
>>> people are using Streams for note taking (the original subject of this
>>> thread). We have a few examples now from Keelan, Si and others. It would be
>>> good to gather the descriptions of their workflows and add it to the
>>> documentation. This could later be fleshed out with details on other
>>> plugins, or wiki settings etc that they use to achieve their desired
>>> workflow. Since there is not a single prescribed workflow for using
>>> Streams, nor a vertical TiddlyWiki edition designed to accommodate it,
>>> having examples of how people use Streams would allow knowledge sharing
>>> amongst Streams user and be useful to the next person who has the same
>>> question as you regarding how to use Streams for note taking.
>>>
>>> Help with collecting this to add it to the documentation would be
>>> greatly appreciated. The easiest thing to do would be to collect the
>>> information in a TiddlyWiki file.
>>>
>>> The other issue you've raised of particular interest to me is the mobile
>>>> UseCase
>>>> <#m_4669617618061752614_m_7997663237905012663_m_8733339352981130668_m_3548407170148151557_UseCase>
>>>> -
>>>> which may be more properly considered a UserModel
>>>> <#m_4669617618061752614_m_7997663237905012663_m_8733339352981130668_m_3548407170148151557_UserModel>
>>>>
>>>> that could serve as extension to various UseCases
>>>> <#m_4669617618061752614_m_7997663237905012663_m_8733339352981130668_m_3548407170148151557_UseCases>.
>>>>
>>>> This in my case involves using Quine2 on iOS devices: iPhone and iPad -2
>>>> different form factors, which lend themselves to somewhat different modes
>>>> of interaction. What's needed here is the ability to manipulate position
>>>> in
>>>> the hierarchy via swipe L/R, drag Up/Down. Is this what you're talking
>>>> about in that Reddit thread you shared
>>>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/comments/o4wfcq/streams_visual_feedback_for_swipe_experiment/>?
>>>>
>>>> Or is there some other mode of mobile interaction to consider?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mobile usage is a tricky issue for TiddlyWiki. The design and UX really
>>> isn't optimized for it. In particular, the drag and drop mechanism doesn't
>>> work for all mobile browsers. This is a limitation of the browsers not
>>> implementing the relevant spec at all or properly. As such, implementing
>>> proper support for this is outside the scope of a single plugin.
>>>
>>> As I've expressed during earlier conversations on the same topic, I do
>>> not intend to work on any mobile specific features or affordances for
>>> Streams beyond any low hanging fruit that can be achieved with minimal
>>> effort. Currently in Streams you can swipe on a node on mobile to trigger
>>> the context menu. Add your own commands to the context menu is the way to
>>> go for any features you absolutely need on mobile.
>>>
>>> The interest in the swipe with visual feedback feature actually comes
>>> from a technical perspective. It is *very* impressive that such a thing
>>> can be achieved with just wikitext, so I would like to see it realized
>>> (time permitting) to serve as an example for others wanting to explore
>>> similar UX.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Saq
>>>
>>
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