Hi Josiah > I'm making, perhaps, a very naive point ... but I like the fact that > NoteSelf can save locally in different browsers without the user having to > install anything additional.
I get that, and I’m acknowledging that local saving is a neat trick, but pointing out that the flaws, in my view, make it unsuitable for serious work. I understand that you’d like to see a way to save changes without installing anything, but I don’t think local storage is the answer you’re looking for. Anyhow, of course, the default fallback saver doesn’t require a plugin, and works in almost all browsers, and is part of the standard HTML5 specification… The trouble with trade-offs is that you need to trade them off :) Best wishes Jeremy. > > Best wishes > Josiah > > On Friday, 2 September 2016 17:22:13 UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote: > Hi Josiah > >> On 2 Sep 2016, at 16:13, Josiah <[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: >> >> Ciao Jeremy & Danielo >> >> > Part of the issue is that part of the reaction to NoteSelf has actually >> > been reaction to seeing browser local storage used for the first time. To >> > me, that’s really an irrelevant distraction from what’s cool about >> > NoteSelf. >> >> I don't think its entirely irrelevant. > > Perhaps we can agree that it is at least orthogonal. If all that one wanted > was local storage of tiddlers then that could be added much more simply than > what you see in NoteSelf. The point of NoteSelf is to bring up the CouchDB > interface; it would still be a desirable thing to do, even without the local > storage features. > >> One of the things I like about it is that it saves locally in a uniform >> way--in the browsers I have tested so far. As I commented previously having >> ONE method, not browser plugin-in dependent, for local save, is, I think, >> very useful to see working. >> >> I do think there are issues with local storage. Which can likely be overcome. > > Really? The issues with browser local storage seem to me to be pretty > fundamental. As I said, it’s brittle and opaque. The user doesn’t have > control over the lifetime of the data, they can’t inspect it, and they can’t > export it. That lack of control is by design because the mechanism is > designed for a different usecase: as a browser-side cache for server > applications that will ultimately persist their data at the server. The > browser manufacturers have zero interest in using local storage as a > persistent, reliable storage locals. > > Perhaps it’s just me: local storage has been around for perhaps 10 years, so > I’ve had plenty of time to absorb the capabilities and limitations. > >> I'm less concerned about privacy than portability. > > As I said to Danielo, it’s only when considering using local storage as a > default cache that the privacy issues arise. It is indeed all about control. > > Best wishes > > Jeremy > >> >> Best wishes >> Josiah >> >> On Friday, 2 September 2016 15:41:59 UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote: >> Hi Danielo >> >>> That's a very daunting conversation. Seems to leave apart all NoteSelf >>> features and focuses only on the worst part. >> >> Not at all! In one of the messages I said that the CouchDB support was >> terrific but that I wasn’t a fan of local storage. >> >>> First of all, it is not saved to local storage, it is persisted on >>> IndexedDB >> >> I was using “local storage” in lower case to cover all kinds of storage in >> the browser. There’s little practical difference for an end user between >> IndexedDB and localStorage. >> >>> Regarding "leaving information behind" >>> >>> Serious privacy issues with leaving user data locked up the browser without >>> their knowledge >>> >>> NoteSelf it's very clear about where information is stored, and provides >>> SEVERAL EASY ways of deleting the information you store on it. Not to >>> mention that leaving information on the browser is as insecure as leaving >>> them on the filesystem. >> >> That comment was with respect to a different comment of mine, to the effect >> that I could see a role for local storage as a temporary backup in case >> saving fails. >> >>> It's a bit sad that you leave apart all this features: >> >> But literally all of those features are part of CouchDB, and hence covered >> by my approval in the original tweet. >> >>> and focus on a technology that is not even being used. >> >> Part of the issue is that part of the reaction to NoteSelf has actually been >> reaction to seeing browser local storage used for the first time. To me, >> that’s really an irrelevant distraction from what’s cool about NoteSelf. >> >> Best wishes >> >> Jeremy. >> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "TiddlyWiki" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to tiddlywiki+...@ <>googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>. >>> To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@ <>googlegroups.com >>> <http://googlegroups.com/>. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki >>> <https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki>. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/74489054-6fe4-41db-9f21-2a038e4c39de%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/74489054-6fe4-41db-9f21-2a038e4c39de%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TiddlyWiki" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki >> <https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/ef38dd46-cadd-4f53-914f-0f46fb4fa7e0%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/ef38dd46-cadd-4f53-914f-0f46fb4fa7e0%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "TiddlyWiki" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki > <https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/0a695b88-b7eb-40ca-b0d2-26acf8a920a9%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/0a695b88-b7eb-40ca-b0d2-26acf8a920a9%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. 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