i thought Jeremy's "Osmosoft" moniker was a useful partner to defining TiddlyWiki
the concepts of osmosis, biological systems.... then there was the image of the "fractal veg" ... all this produced an aesthetic that supported the idea that TW is a living thing, in an eco system. I particularly like "osmosoft" as it emphasises software. Somehow the "soft" and "softness" has been lost in "software" When I discovered that Jeremy had done some animations for a Richard Dawkins TV program (am I right Jeremy) and for the BBC Collaborating at with a Zettlekesten at the level of osmosis seems like a development of Luhrman's idea. There's software and biology together, hinting at a future where computers are very different... So... a few ideas Lets re-introduce the biological and the fractal-biological metaphors into TW documentation! Alex On 1 May 2018 at 01:22, TonyM <anthony.mus...@gmail.com> wrote: > Tristian, > > Thanks for sharing your story. So not along with Platform and ecosystem we > could say TiddlyWiki is a "user friendly database", "a front end", a > back-end, a programming playground, a Hobby, application development > platform. > > Its functions are not limited. > > Tony > > > On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 3:06:15 AM UTC+10, Tristan Kohl wrote: >> >> Great recap Josiah, thank you for that :) >> >> I want to drop my two cents as well: Before I came to TW I was just >> looking for a note taking application and tried many (DokuWiki, Zim, >> CherryTree,...) and mentioned Zettelkasten. Since I live in Germany it was >> pretty easy for me to get into the mostly german community as there was no >> language barrier for me to overcome. However after some months and dozens >> of cards I came to the conclusion that "finding emerging interconnections" >> is not the same as "note taking". >> >> I then stumbled on TW and gave it a try as I did with all the others. >> Back then I did not expect that I would fall in love with it and TW >> bringing me an exciting new hobby waking the urge to learn programming. >> Today, looking back at my odyssey I see TW as a general purpose database >> which provides the (boring but necessary) backend (storing, linking, >> searching, saving, ... ) to build any imaginable application on top. So I >> would second Tony's observation and state that TW can be used as the >> database to implement a full blown Zettelkasten. But you could not use >> Zettelkasten for everything TW can do (see my experiences above). >> >> Nowadays I use TW as a tool to keep track of my bees, my honey wine >> production, home automation and many other things which I could not do on >> top of many other software other than a real DBM - but than I would have to >> recreate the frontend over and over again instead of just using a bunch of >> widgets and wikitext. >> >> I just noticed that the author dropped the original Zettelkasten >> application in favour of his new app - TW still exists so I would say that >> is another win for us users :) >> >> Cheers, >> Tristan >> >> On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 4:07:03 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote: >>> >>> Mark S. asked ... >>> >>>> Perhaps with your background you could explain Zettelkasten. There >>>> seems to be an almost cult-like culture around a system of taking notes (by >>>> software or index cards). https://zettelkasten.de/ . >>>> >>> >>> Mark S. asked me that interesting question in another thread, started by >>> Mat, comparing TW to other "similar software". I been thinking about Mark's >>> question. I wasn't sure if people here are interested in this, but then I >>> thought well, hey, they might be ... >>> >>> "Zettelkästen" is just the German for "card indices" in general. >>> https://zettelkasten.de/ is a specific "Zettelkästen Methodology" >>> derived from the work done originally (on physical cards) by the brilliant >>> prolific sociologist and systems theorist Niklas Luhmann. >>> >>> He was one of several social scientists who prefigured issues that would >>> come up in the development of software for "soft data" and "emergent >>> structure". The point being that in the social sciences, a lot of the time, >>> theories/patterns emerge during research, so you need flexibility--its not >>> like hard science which is more driven by strict prior hypotheses that have >>> clear "data slots"--nor is it like birth & death records, nor address books >>> etc. In short, social science (especially ideographic fieldwork) needs an >>> "open" way to record information. >>> >>> The PRACTICAL issue for the Luhmann style Zettelkästeners, in software, >>> was (1) how to maintain the integrity of the record (the card) AND (2) >>> relate that record to other records (the cards) in an EMERGENT way. In >>> other words NOT be a strict database that only had determined prior slots >>> (hypothesised significant). At the time of emergence of such work it was a >>> hot issue. >>> >>> The "Zettelkästen Methodology" is interesting and clearly is still used >>> to good effect. Not so remarked upon, but significant, is that quite a lot >>> of the sense-making in it is EXTERNAL to the computer. Its about guesses >>> external to the data itself to find pattern. >>> >>> Luhmann make two Zettelkästen (manual, physical) in his life, with >>> thousands of records each, and they informed and structured most all of his >>> voluminous writing. It worked. But I'm not convinced it worked without HIM >>> doing "in head" most of the cross-connection work. >>> >>> Zettelkästen Methodology now looks a bit like a "blast from the past" >>> ... I mean the oft discussion of the vitality of "Tags" OVER >>> "Topics/Categories" is already a done deal on the net nowadays. So in that >>> sense its a bit like a Philosophy of Knowledge that's done it job already. >>> >>> --- >>> >>> On the comparison of TiddlyWiki and Card Indices ... which OFTEN users >>> point to and celebrate ... well it works for SOME TiddlyWiki set up that >>> way. No harm in using that analogy. BUT the analogy quickly breaks down. >>> >>> Card Index systems (& computer equivalents) are base on *the sacredness >>> of the record (Card)* whilst TiddlyWiki is based on the *equality of >>> the fragment (Tiddler)*. So what in the Zettelkästen Methodology is >>> seen as a "basic unit" (card), in TiddlyWiki might also be a card, but >>> could also be composed of fragments (Tiddlers), decomposed and reassembled >>> multiple ways. >>> >>> Zettelkästen Methodology also has no conceptual way of dealing with "the >>> software itself" and "the organisational system itself" being also equal >>> components. In Zettelkästen Methodology you have Cards, then an external >>> software framework to organise them. These are not distinct in TiddlyWiki. >>> >>> IMO, a Tiddler is hardly an "index card" at all in any normal sense. Its >>> outstanding characteristic is its a CHAMELEON :-). >>> >>> --- >>> >>> FWIW, to give some perspective to this issue, the "card analogy" >>> actually owes its greatest realisation in computing to stricter database >>> structures. >>> >>> The Index Card as an idea probably got its first airing in the 1640s in >>> Harrison's "The Ark Of Studies". Serious early application was by Linnaeus >>> to be able to organise the taxonomy of species in a flexible way where >>> records could be added and re-ordered at will (1760's). Then the Dewey >>> library card index system (1870's) was very significant, which was widely >>> adopted, with Index Cards beginning to be adopted widely for all sorts of >>> purposes--police records, doctors records, address "books" etc. >>> >>> A big step towards computing was the development of index cards with >>> punched holes at their edges that were then "notched" into when the card >>> was in a "category". Say you had a thousand cards and only wanted to see >>> cards about "cats" ... you threaded a slim long knitting needle through the >>> "cat hole" and then you could lift off all the records that were not for >>> cats to just see cats (basic filtering). A bunch of different mechanical >>> systems for doing this were developed of varying degrees of sophistication. >>> These "Knitting Needle Machines" were conceptually important to the later >>> development of *relational databases*. >>> >>> Extending from the needle hole idea, a next step was to replace the data >>> recorded on the body of the cards with punched holes on the card--the >>> "punch card"--made on a kind of typewriter. Data that previously were in >>> written language became holes. These could be analysed by mechanical >>> devices that fed the cards through a kind of pianola that notched up a >>> count for when there was a hole. >>> >>> In turn, all this partly fostered punch-tape that in early "on-line" >>> computing WAS your computer program... you'd feed it into a machine and it >>> would transmit signals to a remote computer (they were all remote at the >>> start) according to the pattern of holes. >>> >>> The Punch-Hole Index Card metaphorically matched BINARY thinking vital >>> to early computing to do with fundamental "gates" ... that could convey >>> information as "1" (hole), "0" (no-hole), or on computer as "signal on", >>> "signal off". >>> >>> So, overall, the Card Index was pretty central to concepts of organised >>> knowledge first, and computer realisation of that knowledge, later. An >>> important social and technological bridge from the past to now. >>> >>> But I don't think metaphorically TiddlyWiki has other than a quite >>> generic relationship to card indices. No more than many ordinary programs >>> do. >>> >>> Best wishes >>> Josiah >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "TiddlyWiki" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ > msgid/tiddlywiki/74402fad-b724-42b5-8a42-9682794ea357%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/74402fad-b724-42b5-8a42-9682794ea357%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. 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