Hi Jon Thanks for the comments, a valuable perspective. Just to clarify a couple of points:
> Sharing these couldn't have been simpler: one file. (I'm not talking about > multi-user; that's a different question.) Of course, with TW5 one still only needs to share a single file for read-only access. It's only if the recipient wants seamless editing that they need to look to TiddlyFox and TiddlyDesktop. Also, don't forget that the default "download" saver works in all desktop browsers and most mobile browsers. It may not be seamless, but it is ubiquitous. > Now it sounds like it's on its way to being shareable only with users that > are willing to download, and install a whole application, TiddlyDesktop. (I > realize this is all the fault of the browser developers, not TW developers, > but it's still a problem.) Now, maybe it'll be, we can share the file as long > as you're willing to set up a personal Web server... There won't be any difference in installation and setup between current TiddlyDesktop with the integrated custom browser and the planned web server version that allows you to use any browser. There's a huge problem with the current TiddlyDesktop approach: it makes a pretty basic, poor browser, with none of the features of modern browsers such as spell check. > Meanwhile, TWC evolves to TW5, which can do pretty much what TWC can, and I > guess a lot more safely, but is a LOT more complex. Other than a few > check-off customizations, anything beyond out-of-the-box use as a note-taking > program requires wading through a maze of templates, $-something tiddlers, > widgets, filters... TW5 is undoubtedly more complex than TWC, but I'm not sure that I agree that customisation is inherently any more complex: for both systems, most end users customise it by installing plugins, which is actually a good deal easier in TW5. > So, one way to see TW is as a tool to create personal wikis and Web apps for > computer gurus. This works for me to some extent - I may be just a hack, but > I enjoy this stuff, and that makes it worth it to install apps to keep them > going, re-learn everything the TW5 way and perhaps even to wade into > something like node.js if that's what's necessary to run TWs via a future > TiddlyDesktop server. Using TiddlyDesktop as a local server will not require learning anything about Node.js. > But the complexity required keeps increasing, If you mean the complexity of TW itself, then I'd agree, as above, that TW5 is more complex than TWC. As you note, the driver for the increasing complexity of getting it up and running is changes in browsers. > and the gain in functionality is pretty much zero. (I've yet to find anything > I can do with TW5 or via TiddlyDesktop that I couldn't do with TWC, not to > say those things don't exist.) Loyal TWC users often make this point. I think it's true for TWC users who have invested 10 years in understanding TWC, but I'm not so sure it's generally true. Just one example, to produce a custom list in TWC requires using JavaScript, whereas it's just a matter of writing a filter in TW5. Filters are complex, but they are much less complex than JavaScript. > Beyond the developer, how does TW play for the naive computer user? It's > already not a simple one-file solution. Also don't forget about the available apps for smartphones/tablets. Using TW with those platforms is pretty straightforward. > And, with TW5, the average person pretty much can't customize anything but > themes and background colors and is likely to be befuddled by the huge lists > of mysterious tiddlers in the sidebar. But what could the "average person" customise in TWC? In both cases surely it's a matter of installing plugins, and copying solutions from the mailing list and other wikis. > S/he's not likely to install a Web server to run it, if s/he even has admin > access to his/her own computer. To re-iterate, switching the approach of TiddlyDesktop won't make it any more complicated to install than it is already. And using it will be simpler for most users because they'll be able to use their own preferred browser. > Are there possible ways for TW to work for both audiences (and those > in-between), or are we content to have it be basically a developer's toy > (albeit a really cool one)? I don't agree that TW5 has turned into something that's only usable by developers (at least if you're using the word in the strict sense of "someone who knows how to write computer software"). Rather the point of ambitious customisations like http://pespot.tiddlyspot.com/ is that you don't need to be a software developer to make them. > I don't know enough to know if a creative solution to the problems of browser > security is even possible. Thinking pie-in-the-sky, I'd wonder about the > feasibility of something like an app built on the Dropbox API or perhaps the > Google Drive platform that a user could readily connect to his/her account > and then gain access to full-powered single-file TWs. Have you seen TiddlyWiki in the Sky for Dropbox? It's pretty much what you describe. > That's my $0.02. Thanks for listening. Thanks for taking the time to write it! Much appreciated, Best wishes Jeremy > Jon > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "TiddlyWikiDev" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywikidev. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywikidev/defd51e7-fa7c-4c5e-8c90-8f889ab4de26%40googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWikiDev" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywikidev. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywikidev/CEA18B0F-8E58-4C74-8A4C-80A97C96A231%40gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
