Mat,
As you know I started this thread CSS and TiddlyWiki - Open discussion
<https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/tiddlywiki/h5wpYmht4Bk> from
a different perspective. I support you raising this here.
To respond to this thread;
- There are some cases where css has answers not found in wikitext or
widgets, and some cases where html is a superior method thus css becomes
useful to style that html.
- If css is the best or only way to do something perhaps this flags a
gap in tiddlywiki features, that could be addressed.
- Also Tiddlywiki uses css for its own interface and I believe when
doing so we should have a reference work so people can tweek tiddlywiki
with css if they wish. This includes documenting where/what existing
classes are used in tiddlywiki's User interface. Inspect is not a novices
tool.
- css provides a powerful way to overlay and switch ui elements, as a
result I believe we should avoid compromising its use (ie do not make
decisions that limit the power of CSS over a wiki as much as we can, but I
do not think it should be the main avenue for user interface manipulation.
Tiddlywiki already provides rich interface settings.
- I think we should document or provide some instructions or
primitives that need css, and how to make use of it.
- In some special cases some plugins or tiddlywiki.com documentation
that leverage css to achieve things that are harder elsewhere should be
done.
- Helping pagination when printing tiddlers
- Some numbering situations
- Perhaps even sortable tables
- Building nice html/css layouts within tiddlers.
- Publishing static tiddlers with better styles and layouts
- The trick to get in tiddler anchors
- I have discovered the simple act of using html tables and the
`<thead><tfoot><tbody>` html tags and css to control break avoidance in a
row etc.. allows pagination of tables when printing (open in new window
and Print). This is a helpful thing to know and need not have any
additional coding associated with it, but it does need to be documented,
since tiddlywiki is by its very nature good at lists and tables this is an
essential feature.
In summary the community needs to curate good solutions for users whatever
the technology we use, keeping it as accessible to novices as possible, and
do our best not to compromise the use of those technologies for others to
extend tiddlywiki ie javascript, html and css.
Regards
Tony
On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 5:29:08 AM UTC+10, Mat wrote:
>
> *Problem:*
>
> Yes, you can make almost anything with TW - it is *made* for hacking!
>> What's that? - sidebar on left side? ... ehm.. that's a bit beyond of TW
>> itself.... you must know CSS.
>
>
> I think we all agree that a TW user should *ideally* not have to learn
> CSS to shape TW into what he wants. How can we get away from this? Or does
> it have to be this way?
>
> Another problem, even when you know CSS:
>
> There is a big "workflow differences" between wikitext / html and css -
> Wikitext and html is where the user is ...but CSS is somewhere else:
>
> If you want to modify wikitext/html, you "click edit and then edit". CSS
> is often way more intricate. You must figure out where the style is
> defined, open that stylesheet and then often the most difficult part to
> locate the place(s!) what it is defined. And then go back - i.e if you
> don't want to overwrite the stylesheet, you must copy-paste by creating a
> new stylesheet, tag it, type it, close the original stylesheet. Et cetera.
>
> With html we have (some) wikitext "elements" presumably so the user won't
> have to know html. E.g pipe for tables and several of the widgets. With CSS
> we have some predefined classes but as someone pointed out; the more
> properties a class has the less reusable it is!
>
> How can TW deal with this problem in a good way? *How much CSS should a
> TW user need to know?* Maybe even: Who does TW cater for and therefore
> who does the CSS solution cater for?
>
>
> P.S Worthwhile article on CSS and Scalability
> <http://mrmrs.cc/writing/scalable-css/>.
>
> <:-)
>
>
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