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[email protected] wrote: >Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > >You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of time-nuts digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. OCXO DIP (Joseph Gray) > 2. Re: Thermal noise contribution to phase noise (Bruce Griffiths) > 3. Re: OCXO DIP (David) > 4. Re: OCXO DIP (J. L. Trantham) > 5. Re: Thermal noise contribution to phase noise (Joe Leikhim) > 6. Re: OT - USB to LPT Adapter - Does it exist? (J. L. Trantham) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 21:10:03 -0700 >From: Joseph Gray <[email protected]> >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > <[email protected]> >Subject: [time-nuts] OCXO DIP >Message-ID: > <caf7opz1c+7ftjtzzoxvtk+3c+idpwawdq+rdfxsyhj9sh-u...@mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >I just ordered a few of these. They looked like a potential substitute >for a larger OXCO in some applications. Does anyone have any >experience with them? > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-10MHz-OCXO-DIP-Micro-Crystal-x1pc-5x10E-11-Oven-Oscillator-OCVCXO-GPSDO-/310380778466 > >Joe Gray >W5JG > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:41:28 +1300 >From: Bruce Griffiths <[email protected]> >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thermal noise contribution to phase noise >Message-ID: <[email protected]> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >> The noise spectrum is composed equally of AM and PM noise. Together they add >> to -174. >> >> Bob >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On >> Behalf Of Graham / KE9H >> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 3:46 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thermal noise contribution to phase noise >> >> Bruce: >> >> The last time I looked, the thermal noise floor was still -174 dBm/Hz >> (at 300 Kelvin). >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_noise >> >> Are you saying Boltzmann's constant is off by 3 dB, or are we mixing >> apples and oranges here? >> >> Is there a 3 dB adjustment between noise floor (at room temperature) and >> the "single side band" phase noise measurement, which only looks at half >> the noise, since it only looks on one side of the reference signal? >> >> >The upper and lower sidebansd are coherent so their combined power level >is 6dB higher when translated to baseband as is done in a traditional >analog diode mixer based phase noise measurement system. > >Bruce >> --- Graham / KE9H >> >> == >> >> On 1/15/2013 1:38 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote: >> >>> I've noticed a disturbing tendency to quote the thermal noise >>> contribution to phase noise as -174dBm/Hz instead of the corrent value >>> of -177dBm/Hz as verified by measurement by NIST: >>> http://tf.nist.gov/phase/noisemeas.html >>> >>> This error occurs in papers from Spectrum Microwave, Wenzel Associates >>> and others. >>> Blindly propagating the results quoted in the early literature isnt >>> particularly helpful given that the definition of SSB phase noise has >>> changed in the intervening decades. >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:41:49 -0600 >From: David <[email protected]> >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OCXO DIP >Message-ID: <[email protected]> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >I know they were discussed here in the past but I do not remember any >performance reports. I may buy a couple myself but I do not have the >equipment yet to evaluate one. > >On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 21:10:03 -0700, Joseph Gray <[email protected]> >wrote: > >>I just ordered a few of these. They looked like a potential substitute >>for a larger OXCO in some applications. Does anyone have any >>experience with them? >> >>http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-10MHz-OCXO-DIP-Micro-Crystal-x1pc-5x10E-11-Oven-Oscillator-OCVCXO-GPSDO-/310380778466 >> >>Joe Gray >>W5JG >> >>_______________________________________________ >>time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:52:08 -0600 >From: "J. L. Trantham" <[email protected]> >To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" > <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OCXO DIP >Message-ID: <ABCD76CB33014FD395101E2AEA22CD8C@cardiac5f772ce> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I bought a couple to put on the shelf for 'future projects'. IIRC, they are >square wave, very stable and quite accurate when I tested them. > >However, I did no 'formal' measurement of their performance. > >My thought was an OCXO reference that I wanted to build for the HP 5315 and >5316 A and B series 100 MHz counters. 5 VDC was my main concern. > >I think they will do fine and I can likely put it together without having to >come up with a 'custom' PCB. Just a 'bread board' approach. > >One of these days I need to learn how to 'construct' and order custom PCB's >online as I have been reading about on the list. > >Joe > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On >Behalf Of David >Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:42 PM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OCXO DIP > >I know they were discussed here in the past but I do not remember any >performance reports. I may buy a couple myself but I do not have the >equipment yet to evaluate one. > >On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 21:10:03 -0700, Joseph Gray <[email protected]> >wrote: > >>I just ordered a few of these. They looked like a potential substitute >>for a larger OXCO in some applications. Does anyone have any >>experience with them? >> >>http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-10MHz-OCXO-DIP-Micro-Crystal-x1pc-5x10E-11-Oven >-Oscillator-OCVCXO-GPSDO-/310380778466 >> >>Joe Gray >>W5JG >> >>_______________________________________________ >>time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 00:36:19 -0500 >From: Joe Leikhim <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thermal noise contribution to phase noise >Message-ID: <[email protected]> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > From a practical standpoint, which is it -177 or -174 dBm? >This is confusing topic. > >If for example an FM receiver, does the AM component become irrelevant? > > >_(snip)__ > >As Bob stated thermal noise is equally divided between AM and PM >components when a carrier is present. > >Both the AM and PM noise components are -177dBm/Hz their sum is >-174dBm/Hz. > >Bruce_ > >-- >Joe Leikhim > > >Leikhim and Associates > >Communications Consultants > >Oviedo, Florida > >[email protected] > >407-982-0446 > >WWW.LEIKHIM.COM > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 00:08:03 -0600 >From: "J. L. Trantham" <[email protected]> >To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" > <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - USB to LPT Adapter - Does it exist? >Message-ID: <FC46E52FA9D144108A1C35A974AB6B3E@S0028384766> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Work has allowed another brief entry to this project. > >I opened the SS3 and removed the small PCB that appears to be a USB to >Parallel Port adapter. > >It's part number is WWAVUSBEPP, an interesting choice. I took some pictures >of the unit and I can send them to anyone that is interested. I do not have >a means of 'posting' the pictures. > >It has 4 IC's, U1 through U4. U1 is a CY7C68013-56LFC which appears to be a >Cypress EZ-USB FX2 USB Microcontroller High-speed USB Peripheral Controller. >The data sheet is here: > >http://mdfly.com/newmdfly/products/FX56/cy7c68013a.pdf > >An evaluation board is available. > >http://www.mdfly.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_56&products_id >=107&zenid=at30m3698fqnnoq42ffmgnmrv1 > >It uses a 24 MHz crystal on the board to drive a 480 MHz oscillator to run >the microcontroller and there is a part on the WWAVUSBEPP labeled '24.000 >DALE 6K'. > >U2 appears to be an LT 176333 500 mA Low Noise, LDO Micropower Regulator for >converting the 5 VDC power supply, coming from the main board of the SS3, to >3.3 VDC. It's data sheet is here: > >http://cds.linear.com/docs/Datasheet/1763fg.pdf > >U3 is a mystery. It appears to be an SOT device with 5 pins with 'SATRIP' >labeled on the top. I can not find any information about this chip. > >U4 appears to be an ST 24C64WP SOIC 8 pin EEPROM. It's data sheet is here: > >http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/DATA >SHEET/CD00259166.pdf > >I called BP Micro today and the WWAVUSBEPP is available, in stock, for >$101.92. I don't recognize any markings on the unit that might identify who >made it for BP Micro. Someone else might be able to from the picture. > >So, what further advice and/or recommendations are there? > >Thanks again for all the help. > >Joe > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On >Behalf Of gary >Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 12:52 PM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - USB to LPT Adapter - Does it exist? > > >I stayed out as well. I didn't want to get into this, but I suspect if >you are using the parallel port, bit banging is how they did it. That >hasn't worked well since win98. Every newer version of Windows made the >ports harder to "own", mostly because once there was multitasking, it >became necessary for something to arbitrate what process owned what >piece of hardware. > >Peek and Poke goes way back. You used to be able to read and write to >the ports directly using those functions. > >I hate to be negative, but you wouldn't be the first person to get >screwed by interface standards changing. Think of those klunker PCs that >were kept alive just not to buy another National GPIB board. > >Bit banging worked really well under DOS. Many hacks were done using the >interrupt lines on the serial ports. > > > >On 1/14/2013 10:31 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote: >> Nate, >> >> I, too, am hesitant to post an OT issue, and that is the reason I >> tried to ask just the bare essentials without clogging up the list >> with too much stuff. However, when I want to know something, I like >> to ask the smartest people I know, and this has certainly proven that >> point. >> >> I think you are giving me way too much credit for my abilities to >> 'dissect', 'peek', 'bitbang', and 'VID/PID'. However, if I am able to >> accomplish this, it will be a PhD in 'computer', at least from my >> perspective. >> >> You have given me a lot of places to start and I am sure I will have a >> lot more questions that I can take off list if someone is willing to >> lend a hand. I'll start with removing and inspecting the USB to >> Parallel adapter in the SS3 to see if I can get an idea about the >> chipset used. The BP Micro software is easily downloadable from >> www.bpmicro.com. You have to register but it is free. I will explore >> that as well but there is where I will very likely need help. I know >> the software works with WinXP and later (at least Win7, I don't know >> about Win8). Perhaps earlier versions as well. >> >> Thanks again to all who have responded and apologies for the OT posts. >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >> On Behalf Of Nathaniel Bezanson >> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 9:55 AM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - USB to LPT Adapter - Does it exist? >> >> I always feel guilty replying to off-topic threads, but this one just >> got interesting! At least most mailers make it easy to mute threads, >> so... >> >> J. L. Trantham wrote: >>> My goal is to connect a BP Micro BP-1600, parallel port connected >>> Universal Programmer, to a computer using USB. BP Micro makes the >>> BP-1610 which does just this. It appears to be the same programmer, >>> uses the same software, but connects via a USB port instead of a >>> parallel >> port. >> >> Ahh, well there's the part you didn't tell us previously! Mainly, that >> the PC-side software already knows how to abstract those calls and >> send them over USB -- it's not hard-coded to bitbang the physical >> parallel port. That was the major stumbling block, and it's not a >> block at all. >> >> Odds are that BP Micro wanted to do as little work as possible to >> update their design, so they probably used standard silicon in front >> of the old parallel-based programmer circuit, with OEM drivers and >> just a custom USB VID/PID to make it enumerate properly. If we work on >> this assumption, the hack might be trivial indeed. >> >> Dissect the USB drivers that come with the software -- there should be >> hints in there about the chipset which it expects to see inside the >> 1610. Simply right-clicking all the DLLs and stuff should reveal a few >> signed by a silicon company, likely Cypress or FTDI. There may be >> hints as to the part number. Get your hands on that chip, preferably >> by finding a premade USB-to-parallel cable based on it. (These are >> usually just the datasheet example circuit.) >> >> You can find the expected VID/PID by peeking into the INF included >> with the 1610 software. Use the chipmaker's dev tools to reflash the >> USB chip with the appropriate VID/PID, and see if BPWin will talk to >> it. (Alternately, edit the INF with the existing VID/PID of the >> adapter you're using. This will make every similar USB-to-parallel >> cable enumerate as a BP1610, which is obviously the dirtiest hack >> ever, but may work just fine.) >> >> If the drivers load but the programmer won't initialize, then the ID >> parts are right but the connections are wrong. Likely the data lines >> are connected straight, and it's just the handshaking lines that might >> do things differently than the datasheet example. Working from the >> chip datasheet will be your guide as to the possibilities. >> >> Rots of ruck! >> -Nate- >> >> I have not had a >>> chance to see the inside of the BP-1610 and would really appreciate >>> some pictures if anyone has one, particularly the corner of the PCB >>> that connects to the USB connection. >>> >>> All I have is an Actel Silicon Sculptor 3, also made by BP Micro, >>> that looks like the BP-1710 (with the 'START' button) but connects >>> via a USB port. On the main PCB of the BP-1600 and the SS3 are two, >>> 2 row, 26 pin, connectors, one toward the back edge of the PCB toward >>> the back panel and the other just inside the first connector. The >>> inside connector directly connects to the parallel port on the back >>> of the BP-1600. On the SS3, there is a small PCB that plugs into the >>> same connector, takes a power input, and also has 6 pin connections >>> to the other 26 pin connector. This small PCB has a USB connector >>> that is >> connected to the back of the SS3 as the USB connection. >>> >>> These observations lead me to believe that it is possible to do a >>> 'USB to parallel' adapter to make the connection. Of course, I don't >>> have a clue about the onboard firmware that might be different to >>> allow the unit to be recognized as a USB instead of a parallel port >>> connected >> device. >>> >>> So, some 'experimenting' seems in order, after first trying to >>> closely inspect the small PCB and try to reverse engineer it a bit. >>> >>> In the mean time, I have a collection of laptop's and desktop's with >>> parallel port connectors so keeping the programmers humming is not a >>> problem. Just would like to make the 'jump' to the 'modern era'. A >>> project that has been in the back of my mind. I will probably try >>> one of the adapters referred to. >>> >>> Thanks again for all the info. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] [[email protected]] On >>> Behalf Of [email protected] >>> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 5:38 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - USB to LPT Adapter - Does it exist? >>> >>> >>> Hi Luis >>> >>> No problem, and it's much better anyway to hear from someone who's >>> used >>> it:-) >>> >>> I only took a quick look at the web site before and didn't see the >>> self build instructions at that time, but having seen the SMD chip >>> he's using I think asking for a price might be safer:-) >>> >>> I see from your earlier comments that you've used it ok with old >>> programmers but on the page you've linked do he doesn't recommend >>> that, have you come across any problems with this? >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Nigel >>> GM8PZR >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 11/01/2013 20:15:15 GMT Standard Time, >>> [email protected] >>> writes: >>> >>> Hi Nigel, >>> >>> I missed your post before my reply to Joe, so I made no mention to >>> your suggestion. I have those and they are not a printer thing, they >>> really work low >> level. >>> The list of programmers and bit oriented stuff that was reported to >>> work well is big and surely there are more stuff that works that is >>> not in the list... >>> >>> Joe, take a look a check if you app is reported good: >>> >>> http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/bastelecke/Rund%20um%20den%20PC/ >>> U >>> SB2LPT >>> /liste.en.htm >>> >>> >>> Cheers. >>> >>> Luis Cupido >>> ct1dmk. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 1/11/2013 5:03 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>>> Hi Joe >>>> >>>> As per other replies I was going to suggest this won't work because >>>> USB adapters are for printing only and my solution would be to buy >>>> an old >>> 486 or >>>> early pentium laptop and use that, I've bought several over the >>>> past >> few >>>> years for really silly money on Ebay for this very reason, but I have >>> come >>>> across what might be a possible solution.... >>>> >>>> >>> _http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/bastelecke/Rund%20um%20den%20PC >>> / >>> USB2LP >>>> T/index.html.en_ >>>> >>> (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/bastelecke/Rund%20um%20den%20PC >>> / >>> USB2LP >>> T/index.html.en) >>>> >>>> I can't vouch for this, just found it via Google, and although the >>> drivers >>>> are downloadable you need to buy the adapter and have to email for >>> prices, >>>> but it might be worth a try. >>>> >>>> My preferrred solution would still be the old laptop:-) >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Nigel >>>> GM8PZR >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 11/01/2013 13:09:45 GMT Standard Time, >>>> [email protected] >>>> writes: >>>> >>>> Not sure where to ask this question but thought I would start >>>> here. >>>> >>>> Is there a way to connect a parallel port to a computer via USB? >>>> Not a device that shows up as 'USB Print Support' but, instead, >>>> shows up in Device Manager as an LPT port? I have been able to do >>>> it via PCMCIA to >>> Parallel >>>> Port adapters but I have never found a USB device that would do >>>> this. >>>> >>>> My goal is to connect a parallel port chip programmer via USB but >>>> the software only looks for LPT ports. It works with PCMCIA to >>>> parallel >>> port >>>> adapters but I haven't solved the puzzle yet with a USB connected >>> device. >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance. >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] >To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list >[email protected] >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 102, Issue 59 >****************************************** _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
