Hello
I see that you are using E4406A for direct phasenoise measurement--your results 
are the same as with my E4406A and thunderbolt-but have no spurs.
I think it must be your powersupply for your thunderbolt that made those spurs.
Hardy

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz and        200Hz from
      signal. (Lars Walenius)
   2. Re: Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz and 200Hz from
      signal. (Bruce Griffiths)
   3. Re: Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz and 200Hz from
      signal. (Peter Marczinowski)
   4. Re: Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz and 200Hz from
      signal. (Peter Marczinowski)
   5. Re: Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz and 200Hz from
      signal. (Dan Rae)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 12:52:21 +0000
From: Lars Walenius <lars.walen...@hotmail.com>
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
        <time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz
        and     200Hz from signal.
Message-ID:
        
<vi1pr0701mb19182cc04af1a9ab2a74b8fbf3...@vi1pr0701mb1918.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

What is the specification for the Spectrum analyzer? They don´t tend to be 
useful for OCXO measurments so is this especially good? Or is it only the 
Analyzer phase noise we see?



Lars



Från: David C. Partridge<mailto:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk>
Skickat: den 18 september 2016 14:43
Till: 'Bruce Griffiths'<mailto:bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz>; 'Discussion of 
precise time and frequency measurement'<mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>
Ämne: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz and 200Hz from 
signal.



I've just redone the measurement without the external attenuator and with 10dB 
attenuation set internally to the analyser.

The results are attached.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: 18 September 2016 12:52
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz and 200Hz 
from signal.

The signal level is also very low.
Brue

    On Sunday, 18 September 2016 11:47 PM, Magnus Danielson 
<mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:


 The phase-noise still looks fairly high. How do you measure this?

Cheers,
Magnus

On 09/18/2016 01:27 PM, David C. Partridge wrote:
> Now that's interesting I just re-ran the measurement, and got a quite 
> different result which is attached.  The spurs have GONE.
>
> My only guess right now is that the E4406A power supply is getting quieter as 
> it has been on for longer (I've only had it powered for short periods before 
> now).
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of
> Magnus Danielson
> Sent: 18 September 2016 11:56
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz and 200Hz 
> from signal.
>
> Hi,
>
> On 09/18/2016 12:26 PM, David C. Partridge wrote:
>> The local power is 50Hz, so I can understand the 100Hz spurs, but I
>> don't quite "get" where the 200Hz spurs are coming from.  Or is that
>> just BAU harmonics?
>
> Consider full-wave rectification of 50 Hz, the power consumption load
> on the capacitor after the rectifier creates an inverse sawtooth wave
> of
> 100 Hz, and sawtooth waveshape have both even and odd harmonics.
>
> While much of this is regulated out in the next step, some of it makes it 
> though.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 12:55:49 +0000 (UTC)
From: Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz>
To: "David C. Partridge" <david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk>, 'Discussion
        of precise time and frequency measurement' <time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz
        and 200Hz from signal.
Message-ID: <1026001816.394838.1474203349...@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Still way above what it should be.Whats the noise floor of the measurement 
system?
Bruce 

    On Monday, 19 September 2016 12:43 AM, David C. Partridge 
<david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:
 

 I've just redone the measurement without the external attenuator and with 10dB 
attenuation set internally to the analyser.

The results are attached.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: 18 September 2016 12:52
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz and 200Hz 
from signal.

The signal level is also very low.
Brue 

    On Sunday, 18 September 2016 11:47 PM, Magnus Danielson 
<mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
 

 The phase-noise still looks fairly high. How do you measure this?

Cheers,
Magnus

On 09/18/2016 01:27 PM, David C. Partridge wrote:
> Now that's interesting I just re-ran the measurement, and got a quite 
> different result which is attached.  The spurs have GONE.
>
> My only guess right now is that the E4406A power supply is getting quieter as 
> it has been on for longer (I've only had it powered for short periods before 
> now).
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
> Magnus Danielson
> Sent: 18 September 2016 11:56
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz and 200Hz 
> from signal.
>
> Hi,
>
> On 09/18/2016 12:26 PM, David C. Partridge wrote:
>> The local power is 50Hz, so I can understand the 100Hz spurs, but I 
>> don't quite "get" where the 200Hz spurs are coming from.  Or is that 
>> just BAU harmonics?
>
> Consider full-wave rectification of 50 Hz, the power consumption load 
> on the capacitor after the rectifier creates an inverse sawtooth wave 
> of
> 100 Hz, and sawtooth waveshape have both even and odd harmonics.
>
> While much of this is regulated out in the next step, some of it makes it 
> though.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
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> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 13:11:55 +0200
From: Peter Marczinowski <peter.la...@gmail.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
        <time-nuts@febo.com>
Cc: "mag...@rubidium.se" <mag...@rubidium.se>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz
        and 200Hz from signal.
Message-ID:
        <CAFLUov06di5Pb_J7-BWcYj=hml-bwlefnwy2g1h+x0ynsrn...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Even harmonics are caused by asymmetrical nonlinearities, odd harmonics by
symmetrical nonlinearities.

Peter


Am Sonntag, 18. September 2016 schrieb Magnus Danielson :

> Hi,
>
> On 09/18/2016 12:26 PM, David C. Partridge wrote:
>
>> The local power is 50Hz, so I can understand the 100Hz spurs, but I don't
>> quite "get" where the 200Hz spurs are coming from.  Or is that just BAU
>> harmonics?
>>
>
> Consider full-wave rectification of 50 Hz, the power consumption load on
> the capacitor after the rectifier creates an inverse sawtooth wave of 100
> Hz, and sawtooth waveshape have both even and odd harmonics.
>
> While much of this is regulated out in the next step, some of it makes it
> though.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 13:24:42 +0200
From: Peter Marczinowski <peter.la...@gmail.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
        <time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz
        and 200Hz from signal.
Message-ID:
        <CAFLUov2UvDK2AbnyJ4+9c6vGaN3nDRzeLp6-Ray=458xko_...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Assuming a nonlinearity, a distortion or partly clipping of only one
halfwave, would result in a massive even harmonic, as the 200Hz in the
example. From this point of view "as expected", but a different distortion
could as well result in any other even harmonic.

Peter


Am Sonntag, 18. September 2016 schrieb David C. Partridge :

> Thanks, that makes sense.  Is the PN plot much as expected, or is it
> "could do better"?
>
> Thanks again
> Dave
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com <javascript:;>] On
> Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
> Sent: 18 September 2016 11:56
> To: time-nuts@febo.com <javascript:;>
> Cc: mag...@rubidium.se <javascript:;>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz and
> 200Hz from signal.
>
> Hi,
>
> On 09/18/2016 12:26 PM, David C. Partridge wrote:
> > The local power is 50Hz, so I can understand the 100Hz spurs, but I
> > don't quite "get" where the 200Hz spurs are coming from.  Or is that
> > just BAU harmonics?
>
> Consider full-wave rectification of 50 Hz, the power consumption load on
> the capacitor after the rectifier creates an inverse sawtooth wave of
> 100 Hz, and sawtooth waveshape have both even and odd harmonics.
>
> While much of this is regulated out in the next step, some of it makes it
> though.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com <javascript:;> To
> unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com <javascript:;> To
> unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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>


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 06:23:32 -0700
From: Dan Rae <dan...@verizon.net>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
        <time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt spurs on 10MHz output at 100Hz
        and 200Hz from signal.
Message-ID: <35c6e8aa-c4fc-70c0-7111-152f8c03d...@verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

On 9/18/2016 5:42 AM, David C. Partridge wrote:
> I've just redone the measurement without the external attenuator and with 
> 10dB attenuation set internally to the analyser.
>
> The results are attached.
>
I suspect that you are measuring the analyser phase noise, but it's 
rather early in the morning...

I attach, if I can get it to work, a plot of three different Tbolts on 
my 3048A system.

Dan
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