OK moving along. Do have the 9.6 MHz vectron VTO all set up and working well. It outputs a 3 V clipped sine wave, cleaned up with a single 2N3904 transistor to a 74ls14 inverter. Yup going to use TTL as it turns out I did not have correct/reasonable CMOS counters. So much for low power. Will feed a 74ls93 div 16 and then a 74ls90 div 10. The VTO is tunable and behaves well enough with temperature change.
On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 9:07 PM, Bob kb8tq <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi > > 60,000 / 1,000,000 = 0.06 > > Thus, 1 ppm at 60KHz is 0.06 Hz > > Nothing magic about it. > > I believe you will find that all the filters are fairly similar in minimum > bandwidth. Some > may have steeper skirts than others. You can only get just so narrow and > still > pass the sidebands from the AM modulation. If you mess up the sidebands, > you mess up the AM demodulation. That gets you into timing errors. > > If you take a look at the AM modulation “pattern” the narrowest element is > 0.2 > seconds. That gets you to 1/ 0.2 = 5 Hz. Since it’s square wave > modulation, you > need to pass a bit more than the first sideband in the series. Something > up in the > two or three range is probably the point it gets wonky from missing > information. > Two harmonics gets you to 10Hz and 20Hz bandwidth. Three harmonics gets > you to > 15 Hz and 30 Hz minimum bandwidth. > > At 60 KHz, even with large(fish) blanks, you are still stuck with crystals > that have crazy > temperature coefficients. The Q goes up, but you still get a parabolic > curve that moves > quite a bit compared to an AT. > > Lots of fun !!! > > Bob > > > > > On Aug 27, 2018, at 6:05 PM, paul swed <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Appreciate the comments. > > But back to the problem at hand. > > Having a replacement for wwvb that drives cheapy wall clocks and icing on > > the cake allowing phase tracking clocks to decode the time. > > Fix the good clocks and the cheapies work. That said not wanting to get > > crazy here. > > > > I measured the Spectracoms and the truetimes. A signal is good if it is > +/- > > .6 Hz from 60 KHz. > > These good receivers have very sharp large crystals as filters and I new > > they were sharp. I believe the cheapies are a bit wider. > > I'll have to measure them. > > To work a 6 Mhz oscillator must be within +/- 60 Hz since I am dividing > by > > 100. > > Using the ppm calc at jitterlabs. The 60KHz +/- .6 Hz = .6ppm > > Using the jitterlab calc again it seems a 100 ppm gives +/- 60 Hz. > > Just maybe thats not as hard as I thought to achieve. Need to look and > see > > whats out there tcxo wise. > > Looking for a temp range of 55-80 since its in a home environment. > > > > Regards > > Paul. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 11:57 AM, Bob kb8tq <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Hi > >> > >> The temperature spec on a typical 60 KHz crystal is in the 100’s of ppm > >> range. The temperature coefficient can hit multiple ppm / C at fairly > >> rational > >> temperatures. That all adds on top of the set tolerance of the crystal. > >> Simply > >> to keep it passing signal while the room changes temperature would > require > >> a > >> bandwidth into the 10’s of Hz. > >> > >> For reasonable loss in the filter you would want a Ql/Qu ratio of at > least > >> ten … > >> again back into the 10’s of Hz range. > >> > >> The gotcha of course is that some of the tolerance stacks up all in one > >> direction. > >> You might pass 20 Hz high just fine, but nuke 2 Hz low on this or that > >> device. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >>> On Aug 27, 2018, at 11:12 AM, Tim Shoppa <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> The consumer WWVB wall clocks use a single 60kHz crystal as a front end > >>> filter (not as an oscillator). > >>> > >>> Unloaded Q of a small tuning fork crystal is often 30,000 or so. (You > can > >>> actually observe this order of magnitude when a 32kHz crystal used in > an > >>> oscillator - remove power and the crystal continues vibrating for a > >> couple > >>> seconds before dying off.). > >>> > >>> This gives expected bandwidth of WWVB front end crystal filter as a > more > >>> than a couple Hz. Well, that should be expected too, because they are > >>> demodulating a time code with a 1 bit per second data rate using > >> amplitude > >>> modulated pulses requiring differentiating 0.2s pulses from 0.8s > pulses. > >>> And anyway these tuning fork crystals are only specified to 20 or 30 > ppm. > >>> > >>> It's only a single pole filter so if a WWVB emulator were 10Hz off and > >>> "loud", I'm sure the clock will respond just fine. > >>> > >>> Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also > expects > >>> the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea > >> how > >>> it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You > might > >>> think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude > >>> modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a > >>> single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability. > >>> > >>> Tim N3QE > >>> > >>> On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 10:40 AM Bob kb8tq <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi > >>>> > >>>> One Hertz out of a million Hertz is one part out of a million parts. > >>>> > >>>> One Hertz out of 100,000 Hertz is ten parts per million. > >>>> > >>>> One Hz out of 10KHz is 100 PPM. > >>>> > >>>> One Hertz out of 60,000 Hertz is 16.667 parts per million. > >>>> > >>>> If you are running into a device that swings it’s OCXO to lock to the > >>>> incoming signal, > >>>> it’s unlikely that the OCXO has a very wide tuning range. Numbers in > the > >>>> sub half ppm > >>>> range are not uncommon. > >>>> > >>>> So - what are we trying to do? If it’s just feeding the cheap wall > >> clock, > >>>> they aren’t phase locking > >>>> an OCXO. The vast majority of them just want to do AM reception. If > this > >>>> is going to feed > >>>> TimeNuts gear for various purposes then indeed locking up an OCXO may > be > >>>> part of > >>>> the deal. > >>>> > >>>> Bob > >>>> > >>>>> On Aug 27, 2018, at 10:19 AM, paul swed <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find > >> something > >>>>> that works without a power sucking oven. > >>>>> But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators. > Mr > >>>>> Google seems to know all. > >>>>> That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is > tight. > >>>> +/- > >>>>> .6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure > out > >>>> the > >>>>> lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO. > >>>>> I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its > >> .05 > >>>>> PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer. > >>>>> I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens > were > >>>> off > >>>>> by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting > >>>> that > >>>>> all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not > >> TCXOs. > >>>>> A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation. > >>>>> So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for. > >>>>> Regards > >>>>> Paul > >>>>> WB8TSL > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 7:29 AM, Mike Feher <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mike B. Feher, N4FS > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 89 Arnold Blvd. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Howell NJ 07731 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 848-245-9115 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: time-nuts <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bob > >>>> kb8tq > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM > >>>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement < > >>>>>> [email protected]> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67 > ppm. > >>>>>> That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what > an > >>>> OCXO > >>>>>> will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Bob > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Aug 26, 2018, at 5:52 PM, paul swed < <mailto: > [email protected] > >>> > >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:24 PM, paul swed < <mailto: > >>>> [email protected]> > >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:23 PM, paul swed < <mailto: > >>>>>> [email protected]> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a > divide. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for > the > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> de-psk-er experiments. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used. > Getting > >>>>>> lazy these days. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron. > Several > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> :-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Regards > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Paul. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:07 PM, Bob kb8tq < <mailto: > [email protected] > >>> > >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate > >> will > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there > are a > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60 > KHz. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> something similar. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Bob > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 25, 2018, at 7:00 PM, paul swed < <mailto: > >>>> [email protected]> > >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> divider chain and such your idea makes great sense. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Then filter to 60 KHz. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz > >>>> high. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Bounces around a fair amount. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> actually > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> be > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> phase stable. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms > its > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> simply > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> not good enough. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> intended > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> for. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch > >> of > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> coding > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> and doing exactly what Dave did. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Regards > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Paul > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> WB8TSL > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 5:31 PM, Bob kb8tq < <mailto: > >> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and > a > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> pair > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> resistors. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the > >> tristate > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> control. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Bob > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 25, 2018, at 4:35 PM, paul swed < <mailto: > >>>>>> [email protected]> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for > high > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> end > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> clocks > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the > cheapy > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> clocks > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> yet. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> with a > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> few > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the > carrier > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> drops > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> by > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> -14 > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> chronverter > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the > normal > >>>>>> time. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> There are far better modern single supply analog gates that > >> will > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> work. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Just > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> did not have any. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator. > This > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> eliminates > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term > >>>> answer. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock > chip > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> thats reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that even if > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> you > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> do > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time > correctly > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> after setting the time. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low > >>>> power. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes > >> away. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change > >> DST > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> if > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> those > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> silly politicians screw with it again. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Speculation > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> stations > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> along with the time codes for them. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I > speculate > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All > of > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> these > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> clocks > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to > measure > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> output > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> listening > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> on > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe > >> its > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> just not > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work > >> because > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> it > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> gaps > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the PLL in these clocks. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Next steps > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external > >> modulator. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying > at > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> or > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> below > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 30uv@30 meters. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy) > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Box it up. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> panelplex > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> display. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> WWVB go > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> away. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> WB8TSL > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- <mailto:[email protected]> > >>>>>> [email protected] To > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> unsubscribe, go to <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/> > >>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > 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