I've been wondering about the source of this quote for some time, so I finally decided to look it up (what a concept!)
>From a quote site ( >http://www.mindspring.com/~samhobbs/alt-quotations/quotations.html) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Socrates on youth nowadays A question which arises periodically on alt.quotations is for the full text and the source of the "ancient" writing complaining about the bad manners of youth nowadays. It is frequently suggested that Socrates coined the material (almost certainly not true) although it is occasionally attributed to Roman, Babylonian or other ancient sources. The following material is courtesy of D.P.B. Smith, Jerry Melin, and William Waterhouse (with some discussion also from Dave Bostock, Daniel T. Earl, and Kurt Foster): There are plenty of fake quotations around, and some of them have been around for much more than thirty years. Any direct quotation from "Socrates" is pretty suspect in the first place, since all we know about Socrates is what others wrote about him -- no written work by him has survived. (From Jerry Melin) The book Nice Guys Finish Seventh: False Phrases, Spurious Sayings, and Familiar Misquotations by Ralph Keyes (p. 20) states: ...the mayor of Amsterdam attributed this observation to Socrates: "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in lace of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." This wisdom from the grave was subsequently reported in the New York Times and reprinted widely. After Malcolm Forbes included Socrates's [sic] words in a Forbes magazine editorial entitled "Youth," his research staff went crazy trying to prove their authenticity. They contacted a wide range of librarians, classicists, and other experts on Socrates. None knew of any source for the passage. The researchers finally called Amsterdam's mayor, Gijsbert van Hall. Van Hall said he'd seen the lines by Socrates in a Dutch book whose title he could not recall. There the search ended. "We suspect," Forbes's [sic] researchers concluded, ". . . that Socrates never did make those cracks about Athenian youth." (From William C. Waterhouse) There has been some discussion of a quotation attributed to Socrates, one version being this: "The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not servants of the households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize over their teachers." I don't know how it started, but I've found that it was probably produced by cutting down and modifying a speech by "Right" in Aristophanes' Clouds, 960ff. It's amusing to find it attributed to Socrates, because of course Socrates in that play is the leading representative of "Wrong". Anyway, here (in the translation by Patric Dickinson) are some parts of the speech that resemble the "quotation" above: . . . A boy must hold his tongue among his elders. . . . Greed was abhorred, it was taboo to snatch Radish tops, aniseed, or parsley before your elders, Or to nibble kickshaws and giggle and twine one's feet. . . . So, you shall learn to hate the Agora, And shun the baths and feel ashamed of smut; . . . And to get up and give your seat to your elders, And not to behave towards your parents rudely . . . (From others) There are also sometimes suggestions that something similar originated from ancient Sumer or Babylon, in particular, something reputed to have been written on Babylonian clay tablets thousands of years ago, a father complaining about how the rising generation (his own son in particular) were lazy, disrespectful, were going to make a mess of things, etc etc etc... Another contribution was: I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint. --- Hesiod, Eighth Century B.C. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----------------------- ------------------------- Robert Keefer Associate Professor Psychology Department Office Phone: Mt. St. Mary's College (301) 447-5394, Ext. 4251 Emmitsburg, MD 21727 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Speaking for myself.] fax: 301-447-5021 ----------------------- ------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey Nagelbush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 2:48 PM > To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences > Subject: Re: youth's morality > > > I cannot off hand give you the source, but I believe it was > Socrates, of > course quoted by (and perhaps said by) Plato. It goes like this: > "Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for > authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love > chatter in place > of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; > they contradict > their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food > and tyrannize > their teachers." > > I hope this is useful. > > Jeff Nagelbush > Ferris State University > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >From: "DA Louw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences" > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: youth's morality > >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:01:02 +0200 > > > > > >Tipsters > > > >I read somewhere that Aristotle (or Plato, or.. ?) commented > on the state > >of > >declining morality among the youth. Could anybody please > refer me to the > >original or a secondary source? > > > >Thanks > > > >Dap > > > >************************************************************* > ********* > >DAP LOUW, PH.D.(Psych.), PH.D.(Crim.) > >HEAD: CENTRE FOR BEHAVIOURAL SCIENCES > >PROFESSOR: DEPARTMENT OF PSYCHOLOGY > >UNIVERSITY OF THE FREE STATE > >P.O. BOX 339 > >BLOEMFONTEIN > >9300 SOUTH AFRICA TEL: INTL + 51 + 401-2444 (Work) > > > 436-3423 (Home) > > FAX: INTL + 51 + 447-5719 > > EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >************************************************************* > ********* > > > >--- > >You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To unsubscribe send a blank email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
