Aubyn wrote... You must not get out much, Jim. I know lots of Firm Believers who teach just what Stephen states above ["an allegedly loving God is going to torture me in Hell for all eternity for not believing"]
Paul wrote... Are you sure about this? I've known quite a few "Firm Believers", and I don't remember any of them saying that God punishes or tortures nonbelievers. The standard position, I think, is that the eternal punishment is a sort of default state (arising from a freely chosen separation from God) from which belief in God saves a person. That might sound to us like nit-picking, but I don't think that it does to the "Firm Believer", and in theory, I'd say they're right. (I say "in theory" because in practice many many all-too-human believers clearly take great glee in their belief that their enemies will be tortured for eternity, regardless of what their religious scholars argue about the attitude of their God - for an example, witness the sites that celebrate anniversary of "the arrival in hell" of the young gay murder victim in Wyoming, or more generally the "let's all get together and hate and blame American liberals" movement that is causing so much trouble here in the United States). Aubyn writes... Yea - I'm pretty sure that many Firm Believers teach that those who do not believe, or believe incorrectly, or believe correctly but behave incorrectly, will be punished with eternal suffering. A little support below - but before I get lost in a tangent on Christian theology, let me emphasize that the point of my last post was A) Not all or even most criticism of Christianity is a result of distortion or anti-religious bias and B) Scientific Psychology can not logically be used to support supernatural theories. First from the Bible - Hebrews 10:26-27; 30-31: "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God (SNIP) For we know him who said, It is mine to avenge; I will repay,� and again, �The Lord will judge his people.� It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Now, this from "The Baptist Faith and Message" adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention (a group of pretty Firm Believers, of which there are more than a few running about) on June 14, 2000 (available at http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/10.html): "God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord." I could multiply examples of the above from both the Bible and various creed and creed-like statements (the Baptists don't like to refer to theirs as a "creed") but perhaps this is sufficient. Notice, I am not claiming that all believers teach this, nor am I necessarily agreeing with Stephen's view that a doctrine of everlasting punishment is always inconsistent with a God of love (though I think the way it is traditionally understood is). But clearly an important aspect of traditional Christian doctrine for many believers is that those who believe incorrectly will be punished for it with great, perhaps eternal, suffering. Paul's version of this above is a "politically correct" revisionism meant to make the traditional doctrine play better in the modern context, and there are many who adhere to it. But there are plenty of "old school" Firm Believers out there, and it is debatable how different the revised version really is (it is the difference between God inflicting everlasting punishment on those he wants to punish, vs. allowing those he wants to punish to remain in a state of everlasting punishment when he has the power to spare them). **************************************************** Aubyn Fulton, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Chair, Behavioral Science Department Pacific Union College Angwin, CA 94508 Office: 707-965-6536 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***************************************************** --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
