Thanks for all the info. Special kudos go to Karl Wuensch for putting together a webpage on the spot. You would think that something that was first asserted in 1971 (seven years before I took my first stats class in community college) or possibly as early as 1959 (a year before my birth) might have had time to trickle down to intro stats texts by now. My question then is, is an omnibus F test just a redundancy and would it be better just to go from t-tests to multiple comparisons to Factorial ANOVA in teaching Intro Stats? I guess part of the answer might be if you are teaching people only to be future researchers or also to be able to read published research (which doesn't seem to have caught up with what has been known now for some time).
Rick Dr. Rick Froman Psychology Department Box 3055 John Brown University Siloam Springs, AR 72761 (479) 524-7295 [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Pete, it's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human = heart" - Ulysses Everett McGill ________________________________ From: David Epstein [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 4/3/2007 9:45 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: [tips] Re: ANOVA, HSD, and LSD On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Rick Froman went: > all the textbooks I have used talk about HSD as a post hoc test that > is only appropriate to use after finding significance with an > ANOVA. Do you have something I could reference to support this? I've heard that argument (that Tukey's HSD is a standalone test) several times over the past ten years, and even though I haven't generally abided by it, I think it may be correct. Here's a cite: Gregory R. Hancock and Alan J. Klockars. The quest for alpha: developments in Multiple Comparison Procedures in the quarter century since Games (1971). Review of Educational Research 66(3): 269-306, 1996. I don't have a copy of it, but here's a post from one of the authors: <http://www.math.yorku.ca/Who/Faculty/Monette/Ed-stat/0525.html> --David Epstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To make changes to your subscription go to: http://acsun.frostburg.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3Dtips&text_mode=3D0&l a= ng=3Denglish = <http://acsun.frostburg.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3Dtips&text_mode=3D0< =3D= english>=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7766A.EF5E6CD6 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgsDAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5N aWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEgAEAIwAAAFJFOiBbdGlwc10gUmU6 IEFO T1ZBLCBIU0QsIGFuZCBMU0QAvAkBBYADAA4AAADXBwQAAwAWACMAEgACADIBASCAAwAOAAAA 1wcE AAMAFgAoAAUAAgAqAQEJgAEAIQAAADNGNzQ1MDZEMDk2QjY3NDk5RUQzQjk1RjIyODRCNkJB ADQH AQOQBgDgFAAAOAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AOvf70NqdscBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAAC AUcA AQAAADsAAABjPVVTO2E9IDtwPUpvaG4gQnJvd24gVW5pdmU7bD1DT05ORUNULTA3MDQwNDAz NDAw NVotMTI3ODE2AAAeAEkAAQAAAB8AAABbdGlwc10gUmU6IEFOT1ZBLCBIU0QsIGFuZCBMU0QA AEAA TgAAoOJIY3bHAR4AWgABAAAADgAAAERhdmlkIEVwc3RlaW4AAAACAVsAAQAAAEEAAAAAAAAA gSsf pL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABEYXZpZCBFcHN0ZWluAFNNVFAAZGhlQGZlbGxzcHQuY2hhcm0u bmV0 AAAAAAIBXAABAAAAGwAAAFNNVFA6REhFQEZFTExTUFQuQ0hBUk0uTkVUAAAeAF0AAQAAAA4A AABE YXZpZCBFcHN0ZWluAAAAAgFeAAEAAABBAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAARGF2 aWQg RXBzdGVpbgBTTVRQAGRoZUBmZWxsc3B0LmNoYXJtLm5ldAAAAAACAV8AAQAAABsAAABTTVRQ OkRI RUBGRUxMU1BULkNIQVJNLk5FVAAAHgBmAAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAGcAAQAAABYAAABk aGVA ZmVsbHNwdC5jaGFybS5uZXQAAAAeAGgAAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AaQABAAAAFgAAAGRo ZUBm ZWxsc3B0LmNoYXJtLm5ldAAAAB4AcAABAAAAHwAAAFt0aXBzXSBSZTogQU5PVkEsIEhTRCwg YW5k IExTRAAAAgFxAAEAAAAbAAAAAcd2Y4oS6jsarZOVRXS5oVK+DTbhQgABrnecAB4AdAABAAAA LgAA AFRlYWNoaW5nIGluIHRoZSBQc3ljaG9sb2dpY2FsIFNjaWVuY2VzIChUSVBTKQAAAB4AGgwB AAAA DAAAAFJpY2sgRnJvbWFuAB4AHQ4BAAAAHwAAAFt0aXBzXSBSZTogQU5PVkEsIEhTRCwgYW5k IExT RAAAAgEJEAEAAADdDQAA2Q0AAG8xAABMWkZ1nze54wMACgByY3BnMTI1gjIDQ2h0bWwxAzA/ AQMB 9wqAAqQD4wIAY2jBCsBzZXQwIAcTAoD/EAMAUARWCFUHshHVDlEDAd0Q1zIGAAbDEdUzBEYQ 2dkS 72Y0EG8RezUDxgdt5RHVNhpHYWgDcQKAEePbCO8J9zseDw4wNR8vHw/bCkEOIDgR0gxgYwBQ CwmZ AWQzNhFgC6U0IBACHCpcDrIBkA4QOSA8AEhUTUwgZGly4j0l8HI+fSWzACEDMDknAWRvAOAn AQqx XHF/HfAnARjgAzAnZRFgJWszYyVAJmBFQUQnMCVsN4I3JlBUSVRMRStdkyUwDvBbdAUgc10H 8ARl OhFwTk9WQSwwIEhTRC8QAHBkIKZML0ArbTg1JlAvLJ+7JgIK4yAxnzKvDhA2DvDAPE1FVEEg BaAC MDEJ8HQ9IgXgJnM2LngwMC4koDbRNRAt4DQQIiBuYQeAPUdFgE5FUkFUT1IrXb8t4TEQKx8t sTPf JgE1EWDgPEJPRFkrXSSxO08IZzk2JlBESVYgiGlkPT+gT1dBLoABC1B5VGV4dDgw7Dk4LGAm zyAA AChlKQP/KMEpXz1vPn8/gEEfQi9DOp8liTdgRxpDbyXkNDgmUMBGT05UIGYA0DfwZwcTNaEd oT0j NxE3ESB1AJB6N/AyRwsYMAMwYy8T8AOyAdBDSVQY8G5rRwQgAhAFwHRoZTWgaZE14C4gWQhg IHcI YK5sL6BR8AuAa1HhYQVALnMDcBFAU0FnU4R3YftRkUagcwVAVOAZIAAgCYBXP5ADoCYwNw7w KBkg dpEJ8CB5ZRkBIGIBEEsFsFIQSVHgb29TcG3eeVUFVUBTsAQgYwtgBBGjVgEFoG1tdQMAdFhA QR2B bGVnZSklazjBJUAmbmJzcAKAJ1iMJ2EBQEsHbWlnDrD+IBjwVrBeAVMRB3FX0VUB9yXwEzEo IHcD oF7xC4AnEN9fADXgQJBXMVhAbl+gUnD1JWw1PzEvTLInOSdHSVu/AcAnRwqiY3gKgCVsMCrh /i8/ YWLPS09Ev0XPRt9H7/9jr0oPaM9ML00/Tk9PX1Bs/2FfYm9on1s/XE9ub2TfZe//Zv94L3Zv f4+A n2mPap8/Z1ZTXcA3wHQIcGU8YDP/LEBr32zvQy+Eb4V/gpxwOf9uz43PcO9x/3MPdB91L5Cf /zlx i8WC73wfJ1Z974XOVUAOeVqANiFAEEdJTi11PKBUOHBNLqAOIAUwIv+Nf46Pj5+WU5R/lY+Q 75H6 3iIHbTegkxQ3wHZYQJP/GxoCoqIzov95bjxTUAcuwJyWkhItU0laRZWd4TAFMDsXEE9MOIBP LqCn Qp5PqeREclJwUvsN4FNwRgNjm1wU8DEQq1L/gs+p/3dfmD60j5kPfS+a7/+CD7X/iu+L/5wv nT+t 37av/6BvoX+ij7u/pK+lv6bPp98/qO/F36sPrB+tL8LvUHPWeRjgHZFnWEBEQDAKwP8OwDXx uu+1 n9OfwU+3j7if/7mvur/MDy2ykeGxRduftAb/wd/QX8P/xQ/GH8cvyD/JT//KX+IPzH/Nj86f z6+Q T+mv/+q/68/s3+3vsO/an/Nf9G//9X+zf/ePln+Xj9Xfma/YP/+9777/wA/BH98P4B/hL+h/ /+NP 5F/lb+Z/548IT+6v779/8M8DPw7fD+8Q/xIPEx8gwEJveCAzMCBQ9g//9x8TnxovGz8Iz/mv 1F8g ///+L9ePAA/Zrx5fvF+9bwFP/wJfF/8EfyzfBp8HrygvCc//Ct8L7wz/Dg8UHxUvFj8XT9ET XEpv aFmQQmBAX7H+VVoAXjBVMFoRHH8djzgP/x+vQG8hzy2vI+8k/yYPQz//QX8pPypPK18sb0Uv Lo9D 7/8wrzf/Ms8z3zTvNf83D1RffzkvOj87T1FvWuKHEJMwYQptYBBwksBuZ3MsiiBOACBGcDc2 MT7/ /0APWo9CL2MfRE9QL0ZvR3//SI9l72QvS79Mz03fTu9n3/9RD2afUy9af1VPVl9Xb1h/f1mP dw9b r1y/Xc90H32SKEA0NzkpIDXd8C39aSA5Ga9ir2zvZM+FH2bv/3LPaQ9qH2svh++GL25fb2// cH9x j3Kfc690v3XPfR937/94/3oPex98L5kPfk9/X4BvB5P/n5+go0EgaHJlDmahkLAAYDB0bzpy Amav 40BqYnUuZQRkdaN8ZmllbGQd3UJmqOBgwKFAe0hZkFBFUkyS8Esgpm99p3V93qGpQT6g3bCY UTH4 XHVsnzmm7Y5viR+kj/2EZUHdDYSPsE+Gr4e/r2//id+K74v/jQ+OH7S/kD+RT/+SX5NvlH+V j5af l6+e/5nP85rfm+4jMMuznS+eN8dPH6TfoO+h/6MPpBsiUGWsdGVhAD7AJ8pwYcnAAm/LUCB0 aGF0 IHmcoG9rynDUsL+AnKBn3Glj1DA90NUAZZxw1RBkbWI+kSBvxqDWgmh2dZwxpgBlv3DCkMhs MUm2 IUJSzIlcbGDAZQu+YM44LT5AbHlzcx3KYUU+gdPw1TBNY0f9YDBssn+zj84/ta/ef7fP/8Ov ue+6 /7wP4U/fj4NAyVH/4OXmP+dP6F/q/+wPvj+/T+/AWalgnMD8IHLMi/Lh8QHz89LWwFxxrPrY jd3h 2azf8QHayvAP8R/AgkhhMPkQAGJJbmRleD0tpjHMjKzAcWP0oGqs0cRkYs3AfiBf/ZL9Uf/a c+Uz 97/4zsQf0s/Ib8l5+FRhaJwhzB/GsuCwzd9dpP5CzIv9QQbnRqcBOk3dDy8IiuMpIESc8Gmq ZNwQ cNAwZdZRW6p1kmTWkEBmqNBsc8KAIi7WwXJtLtqgdF0/2I/Zn9qsB38Ij1+YZW5OdApvC38M h1R1 1qA0CC8zLwagMDcgOeQ6NJ5wUE0P3xDvEf/3Ew8UHxxUVKrAFd8W7xf3j9gw1sBgwdZGUHN5 1sBL y1HWEWGs8FNjqMBuA8nwynAoVElQUyk/Gb8azxvfHO8d/1/FdWI4amVjFb8gjwx4W3RqaQ2A XZwA ZdIA0ABPxFZBYQBIU0RhAJxA/Q1QTC8AJQ8mHycv3//hD/8yPzBPMV/jj+Sf5a/tzzRf//9f +W/A Z9J/PV8+bwElz8D+UPbP4f9AzwMvybAFH8bBvQacTw3QGHFhAJ7AQWCg1iAY8mEAUtYgawoT 1/H+ dxWfNl83bzV/Td9O78787CZn0YDMmD4MaSPg1OKj1qDUAHh0YtVjSaYAu5zw1qB12+ANUEIw bEvw efsQb3XVMC7x1IDUcnD2b9AwpgBv1jDUAFix1QK/T99Q71H/Uw9UHwzDadcxVm7bsNSAcEsw b0sw advVIFXRb1by1IBm1AA+wI+osPtAIoJIYGduaaiw7yPQJFFMcNRAaC8xWb9az99b31zvXf8M wy6D Lg0AYKD2eVfAVqRznCDT8CJzVpB/y0D9Ea2gpjDcQWJyYJFz3nVf4JywWVJfUD9jL2Q/z2VP bO9t /9rZSSdW0dgi91cx1RJCoGfX0EyRgsDVA/EYcGtledRhWAJfUQTx/0Iw+0Aj4F+AVdLQMCT/ cL+/ 2p3b4NwxI+Et4MpSb9wxv9ZzQpBZQkyQaVDYMXMvJDd5wdZiV8BnYuBWlG4nd1mvd7/anWdM kHni X6Ji+w1AVyFinRDUQC7QVpBqMntL8NRAIJwwnRDXAJxxcsumICsALmYvbmIO8GdZ0FwnYTAM aUjc QdRj/yQg1ABMz36/bs+Hz4jf2spaR6YgZ5ywnRBSaRBIT2JhWPBXgS9RQWzX8Ur9aRBLnKBL 4HvR g8+E34XselTWkXEYgFix1bIj4HB/1RCHn4uv2p37UNwwnKBw93PyynDWUU2s4C3h0GDRoP+c IEKR X1BfgBmApwDJ8Kew/6YgmAPWgpNQ2EFhMcnwFaB9mfB5lF+Vb3jdqXBigUeD1uAkcjE5NzEp kB+/ kS+F7C5ADTDKoddRRaew/yPQLeBfgCPhLkDb4EKg1sBAIDY2KDMp0gAygDY5LTMwNiybr/+c v9qs n3DAgJ/Mpn+nj4qf/6n/cc7ykF+AfZBWpIcxYBD3X7DXUYHyYlfR1pCG5ViT3mYKMV9x1qDX VWFX 0CNw/9cglE+s/6sPs2+0f7WPZnrbATBnWTy4r89IQdewaxED0IDGQHRwOi8vdy290C6C4NUA Lmlg cmvidQ8gYS9XI3Az0MngMZhheS9NdiHccGUvBaNgLXWxdC8wNTK8NS7GQtJsYWAOwGQAwg5m /SDW UNAwe0hZUMBFUkxJTkvTwL1v975/v4/Amn0AscKx1yABMP/NgfyQatAGycPvxP/GD8CZ7zxv 4m+7 fyvlQeptZv9oCb+2T7dfuG/UH9Uv2totDRv/1u/X/9YPoA+hH91P3l/fb/8Mww5yDzfa39vv 3P/k r+W//dk7Led/6I/ZDB9ggtF0wP+DQK9wIpAkcWCRaWE+wGvg/eHQY2AwDwCjwYCgYKAOQX/q r+u/ 5p+8D70aBGBr4G5eLrHBwwCwoHPALpnRL8pjI7AtgWBuL1+gmTFaLpigP0yRYTA9LeImR58Q 4fBV 8l9tb/tQPSgwPD1MkGfyUHNo/8FPwl/DbfVf9m/3fPif+aL/x9/I7/zP/d/3XeC/+FL5+H4m 8rj/ 6QZvB3/y1o8hZ//5Vs7Pzp/y/9C/8M/x3w8v/xGPEp8TrzOPDW85jzqTRC//Fm849DvhQ/E6 7zv/ HC841EY1R+EsQE9EWdE9MkI3HxFIVE1M+eB9ASPgAAAAHgA1EAEAAAA7AAAAPDhERTQ4RkE4 QTgw MjlFNDlCOThCNUZEOUQ2MzYwQTZDMDU1RkM4MUNAQ29ubmVjdC5qYnUuZWR1PgAAHgA5EAEA AABM AAAAPExZUklTLTYwMjUtNTMwNzktMjAwNy4wNC4wMy0yMi40Mi4zMy0tUkZyb21hbiNqYnUu ZWR1 QGFjc3VuLmZyb3N0YnVyZy5lZHU+AB4ARxABAAAADwAAAG1lc3NhZ2UvcmZjODIyAAALAPIQ AQAA AB8A8xABAAAAVgAAAFIARQAlADMAQQAgAFsAdABpAHAAcwBdACAAUgBlACUAMwBBACAAQQBO AE8A VgBBACwAIABIAFMARAAsACAAYQBuAGQAIABMAFMARAAuAEUATQBMAAAAAAALAPYQAAAAAEAA BzDr 3+9DanbHAUAACDCQMWPvanbHAQMA3j+vbwAAAwDxPwkEAAAeAPg/AQAAAAwAAABSaWNrIEZy b21h bgACAfk/AQAAAGAAAAAAAAAA3KdAyMBCEBq0uQgAKy/hggEAAAAAAAAAL089Sk9ITiBCUk9X TiBV TklWRVJTSVRZL09VPVNJTE9BTSBTUFJJTkdTL0NOPVJFQ0lQSUVOVFMvQ049UkZST01BTgAe APo/ AQAAABUAAABTeXN0ZW0gQWRtaW5pc3RyYXRvcgAAAAACAfs/AQAAAB4AAAAAAAAA3KdAyMBC EBq0 uQgAKy/hggEAAAAAAAAALgAAAAMA/T/kBAAAAwAZQAAAAAADABpAAAAAAAMAHUAAAAAAAwAe QAAA AAAeADBAAQAAAAgAAABSRlJPTUFOAB4AMUABAAAACAAAAFJGUk9NQU4AHgAyQAEAAAAWAAAA ZGhl QGZlbGxzcHQuY2hhcm0ubmV0AAAAHgAzQAEAAAAWAAAAZGhlQGZlbGxzcHQuY2hhcm0ubmV0 AAAA HgA4QAEAAAAIAAAAUkZST01BTgAeADlAAQAAAAIAAAAuAAAAAwB2QP////8LACkAAAAAAAsA IwAA AAAAAwAGENSDDOgDAAcQNQUAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAEAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABUSEFOS1NG T1JU SEVDSVRFWU9VV09VTERUSElOS1RIQVRTT01FVEhJTkdUSEFUV0FTRklSU1RBU1NFUlRFRElO MTk3 MShTRVZFTllFQVJTQkVGT1JFSVRPT0tNWUZJUlNUU1RBAAAAAAIBfwABAAAAOwAAADw4REU0 OEZB OEE4MDI5RTQ5Qjk4QjVGRDlENjM2MEE2QzA1NUZDODFDQENvbm5lY3QuamJ1LmVkdT4AAHnU ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7766A.EF5E6CD6-- --- To make changes to your subscription go to: http://acsun.frostburg.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=tips&text_mode=0&lang=english
