Dear Tipsters,
Alan has provided us with an interesting background account to the ideas
expressed by Ronnie Laing. I am not surprised by the suggestion that he and
Esterson might not have been completely objective.
I still think that he offered insights into the phenomenology of schizophrenia,
particularly in The Divided Self and, on the assumption that they are not
embellished, that his anecdotal observations are compelling.
On the downside, being a guru-type media figure may also have offset his better
judgment at times.
Sincerely,
Stuart
______________________________________________
Stuart J. McKelvie, Ph.D.,
Department of Psychology,
Bishop's University,
2600 College Street,
Sherbrooke,
Québec J1M 0C8,
Canada.
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone: (819)822-9600, Extension 2402
Fax: (819)822-9661
Bishop's Psychology Department Web Page:
http/:www.ubishops.ca/ccc/dev/soc/psy
__________________________________
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allen Esterson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 4:00 AM
> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
> Subject: [tips] RE: info: R D Laing
>
> On 23 April 2007 Stuart McKelvie wrote that R. D. Laing
> > did make some claims about the distorted communications patterns
> > in families as a factor" in the development of symptomatic
> > behaviour diagnosed as schizophrenic.[...]
> > One interesting thing he did was to sit in back wards for long periods
> > of time. He noticed interesting patterns of behaviour when he did this.
> When I read R. D. Laing and Aaron Esterson's *Sanity, Madness and the
> Family: Families of Schizophrenics* (and also Esterson's follow-up on one
> the families in question, *The Leaves of Spring: A Study in the Dialectics
> of Madness*) about ten years ago, my abiding impression was that the
> investigators sought to interpret conversations and behaviour in the
> family *in terms of* their theory that symptomatic behaviour was a
> consequence of "mystification" processes within what they called the
> "family nexus".
>
> Some relevant quotes. Whereas in *Sanity*, Laing and Esterson claim they
> would be exploring "afresh, *without supposition*", whether the behaviour
> of the individual exhibiting schizophrenic symptoms was "intelligible in
> terms of the praxis and process of her family nexus", in *Leaves* Aaron
> Esterson wrote that the earlier work "was *concerned to show* how the
> experience and actions of persons whom our society calls 'schizophrenic
> make much more social sense than is commonly supposed when they are
> interviewed in the contexts of their family in a certain way." [my
> emphases]
>
> In his biography of Laing, *The Wings of Madness*, Daniel Burston contends
> that Laing never replied to his critics (of *Sanity*) convincingly, and
> quotes Laing's saying in an interview that "interviewing the normal
> families was a more gruelling experience than speaking with the families
> of schizophrenics. They were just so dead and stifling... It was difficult
> to way what the difference between the two was except that in the normal
> family nobody cracked up." (p. 74)
>
> On another occasion Laing said something rather different: "The families
> of normals were deadly dull but they didn't contain these elements of
> misunderstanding at all..."
>
> He then went on to say something that effectively undermines the
> contentions he and Esterson made in earlier times:
> "...and of course then the argument was to what extent the mystification
> processes were a secondary induction of the fact that there was a
> *diagnosed* schizophrenic in that pathology in the family. Supposing a
> normal family has the misfortune to have a genetically disordered person,
> then might that not induce those mystification processes in any group of
> people? That's an impossible question to answer, there's no way of getting
> behind that...<
>
> Summing up:
> 1. My sense on reading the books cited above was that the "mystification"
> processes were very largely read into the situation by Laing and Esterson
> on the basis of preconceived theory.
> 2. They failed to recognize that certain behaviours of family members were
> very possibly a *consequence* of the difficult behaviour of the
> schizophrenic individual, rather than a contributing *cause* of it -
> something Laing belatedly acknowledged.
>
> Allen Esterson
> Former lecturer, Science Department
> Southwark College, London
> http://www.esterson.org/
>
> ------------------------------------
> Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:12:39 -0400
> Author: "Stuart McKelvie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: info: R D Laing
> > Dear Michael,
> >
> > In a series of books, R. D. Laing attempted to capture the complexity of =
> > psychological disorders, particularly from a =
> > phenomenological/existential point of view. He had great sympathy with =
> > the suffering of the person. At various points in his writing he did =
> > make some extreme statements (e.g., schizophrenia is a valid inner trip; =
> > they will be seen as the true adventurers of the mind) and he did make =
> > some claims about the distorted communication patterns in families as a =
> > factor. But he did not rule out a biological basis for people's problems =
> > (he "bracketed" this issue).
> >
> > One interesting thing he did was to sit in back wards for long periods =
> > of time. He noticed interesting patterns of behaviour when he did this.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> > Some References
> >
> > The Divided Self
> > Self and Others
> > The Politics of Experience and The Bird of Paradise
> > Wisdom, Madness and Folly
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > Stuart J. McKelvie, Ph.D.,=20
> > Department of Psychology,
> > Bishop's University,
> > 2600 College Street,
> > Sherbrooke,
> > Qu=E9bec J1M 0C8,
> > Canada.
> > =20
> > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Phone: (819)822-9600, Extension 2402
> > Fax: (819)822-9661
> > =20
> > Bishop's Psychology Department Web Page:
> > http/:www.ubishops.ca/ccc/dev/soc/psy
> > __________________________________
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:48 AM
> > > To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
> > > Subject: [tips] info: R D Laing
> > >=20
> > > did R D Laing state that there are no crazy individuals only crazy
> > > environments?
> > > also did he advocate the idea that if a schizophrenic scattered feces
> > > on the wall it should be perceived as art?
> > >=20
> > > Michael Sylvester,PhD
> > > Daytona Beach,Florida
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > ---
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